All Motor DC5R Complete!

[mattyd]

I started out as a over the moon Honda driver… until my car started to burn oil. And I mean burn. I was going through at least 1 litre of oil per 1000kms. Smoke would bellow out of my exhaust after being stationary at traffic lights, and then taking off. I knew I had problems. I researched around and spoke to mechanics about what the problem could have been. Most of them were reluctant to diagnose the problem as a certainty and I knew that they would have had to have pulled the head off. I cut my losses and thought that the motor is still pretty new so it is most likely something to do with the valve stem seals. So I took it and left it with my mechanic Nick to pull the head off and have a look. What I though would have been 2 weeks as a max…. turned into a 10 month off the road sleep away for my car.

Upon inspecting the head, they found that the valves had been burnt and were a nice blue – ish colour and that the rings had gone and there was plenty of piston play… Nick was shocked that I hadn’t thrown a rod. They called me up and told be the news. I was devastated. But quickly got over this as I knew that now I could build my engine. Those who have done it will know that the initial time of building the engine and looking for parts so many things cross your mind. And in my case I still didn’t know if I wanted to go forced induction or N/A.

Looking around on US K20 forums, it seemed that there was a heap of potential for a N/A k20 and my first choice for parts was immediately TODA. Opting for a High comp all out 9000 rpm monster was much to the delight of Nick as a whole new world of tuning Hondas was opening up to him… with me as his guinea pig. He learnt fast as was amazed with what he was researching about the k20 and was impressed with estimated power figures. So the parts were ordered.

Now you may ask, why 10 months. To tell you, there were a few problems with obtaining parts as engine internals here are not that readily available for k20s. Lucky however as I was able to pay as the job went on. For all you spec heads here are the parts

TODA 12.5 :1 compression ratio pistons
Eagle Conrods
Honda OEM Bearings
TODA CAMS
OEM valves
TODA valve springs
TODA heavy duty chain tensioner
OEM timing chain
OEM timing chain guards
Buddy Club titanium retainers
New bore and hone for oversize pistons
Fully balanced and blue printed block
K aligned valve guides
New OEM Honda gasket kit
TODA headers
Metal Cat
Fujitsubo Exhaust
Exedy Clutch
JDM Yard baffled sump
Energy suspension Engine Mounts

If I have forgotten anything I guess I soon will remember

And the results……………. 175 fwkw naturally aspirated.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9149/maxpower1nd4.jpg

And for better indications of power of different heat conditions…

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4813/back2backgh9.jpg


And what is it like to drive……………………extremely smooth power delivery thanks to James at Hondata. But it doesn’t mean that it is not blisteringly quick… I leave traffic behind me shifting at 3000 rpm….When I dare to sink my foot deeper in any gear there is power right on tap it doesn’t matter if im cruising at 80 in 6th gear it will get up and go will minimal effort. It scrambles for traction in first gear as soon as it gets into vtec range. Every time I drive it you cannot wipe the smile off my face.

As for the sound at 9000 rpm……. Un****ingbelievable … my friends have named it the baby f1 honda

A big thanks to Nick and Nathan at Forte Performance who out up with my shit for the 10 month build and have made happen one of the best dreams into reality. Thanks to James at Hondata as always his work is pure magic the tune is unbelievable so smooth and clean. Adrian at Toda and the Guys at JDM Yard for the parts


********************UPDATED 18/03/2009********************

More going on with this, DRY SUMP is here!

[EG5]

bloody awesome! grats on the completion!

175kw is crazy!!

[didz]

****ing amazing mate, i only wish i could d that to my dc5r.

BTW what intake are you using and does it max out at 9k rpm now or can u go passed it?

[Klayemore]

Nice work mate - you got any pics of the build?

N/A all the way! :p

[grumpy rooster]

175fwkw is very healthy. :)

[muhhan]

The power curve looks very smooth. I bet it's a hell of a lot of fun to drive! Do you have a graph of the AFR?

[90LAN]

nice one mate
enjoy it now!

[matt]

nice work, got any vids of your car on the dyno or road? be nice to hear it



BTW what intake are you using and does it max out at 9k rpm now or can u go passed it?

lookin at teh dyno's that he posted peak power is under 8000rpm.
tho presumably the valvetrain is still safe at 9000rpm?

[[RSX 03]]

so jealous right now!

picorban!!

[Benson]

Nice figures..

Gonig to run it down the 1/4mile? Should be expecting 12's from it:thumbsup:

[souljah]

holy smokes batman!! prolly the most powerful NA DC5 I've heard about. Great work :thumbsup:

now, pics of the ride? :)

[Waggy]

Jesus. That is farking awesome!! Nice one.... can't wait to see some pics and vids man!

[barefootbonzai]

wow that's awsome.

[bungsai]

thats crazy...so the all important question...$$?

[Chi]

god damn, excellent figures.

[X8TEENX]

what is the spec for ur toda cam??

[yfin]

I think that is the same hub dyno James is using for the Euro project - if so power/torque figures are at the hub, not at the wheels. The wheel figure is typically lower by about 10-15%. either way very nice...

[honda_b_blastn]

great build mate!..love to see a vidoe of that...;)

[yfin]

current auto salon fwd na record is around 140 or so kw geez talk about alot more power from a k20!

Read post #18 - I am pretty sure your comparison to autosalon dynos is not comparing apples with apples.

[G AE82]

Good stuff. It's great you're happy with the end result regardless of the dyno number. Are you going to hit the strip with it?

[45SET]

awesome stuff.... there is still hope for my slow DC5r.... :p

[BRU51N]

awesome figures mate!
top stuff

[STOCK]

farkingg nice power output, track time!

[mattyd]

thanks for the kind words. it was a task and a half... but completed in the end

i think the toda cams are the spec C.... all i go by is the cam lift duration which is 295 degrees on intake and about 275 degrees on exhaust

i have taken some shitty photos of my car and as you can see, 100% clean stock body and rims.... at the moment its a sleeper and will probably never see a body kit as i am not huge on the idea of putting one on. rims will be changed as as soon as i get back from japan in late july for some badly need traction.
and hopefully in japan i will be able to source a better after market or even jdm intake manifold and intake. As some of you noticed power does die in the top end at about 8700 - 8800 rpm. this is due to the more restrictive intake manifold in the audm type rs. I have thought about itbs, however there is not really enough room to run enough of a runner length, hopefully i will be able to find something

yfin - not to be a smart arse, and all due respect with the next question, are you speaking from experience when comparing dynos? granted that it is a hub dyno vs a roller dyno, however i cannot really see that there would be much of a difference in friction of tyres to steel rollers and hubs which are attached which mimmic tyre contact to road. Both dynos, when used correctly are there not to just measure power out put, are also there to provide load on gear box and engine when tuning a vehicle, load meant to be close to what would be experienced on the road... providing indications of when in the rpm the vehicle will need more fuel added to the mixture, or more spark and when to advance timing. I dont even think it is really possible to obtain the same power figure on 2 different dynos at 2 different workshops??!:confused:

at the same time on a roller dyno, if i vehicle is strapped down to tightly it will create more load on the tyres, making the engine work harder to spin the wheels.. hell even tyre pressure can come into effect on a roller dyno. i will try and get it on a roller dyno and see what happens.
however, i didnt enter into this project to see if i could have the most powerful dc5r. i couldnt care less about power figures and how much power my car has. all i wanted to do was impress myself.... and it has exceeded all my expectations. and the project is far from being finished. i still have some suspension shopping to do.

Remember though its not how much power you have, its how well you can use the power that you have got.

if i was after outright power i would have bought a r32 gtst, ripped out the rb20 and slapped in an off its head rb30 bottom end with a rb26 head and a monster turbo and be running 400kw + without breaking a sweat.

I am extemely happy with what i have and will post up videos, quater mile times and track times as soon as they are done. and everyone in vic will be sure to see me out and about at coming meets and around on the streets:wave:

[img=http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4881/dsc00085oq0.th.jpg] (http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4881/dsc00085oq0.th.jpg])

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4881/dsc00085oq0.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4328/dsc00084ag6.jpg

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7986/lumpymm2.jpg

[yfin]

yfin - not to be a smart arse, and all due respect with the next question, are you speaking from experience when comparing dynos? granted that it is a hub dyno vs a roller dyno, however i cannot really see that there would be much of a difference in friction of tyres to steel rollers and hubs which are attached which mimmic tyre contact to road. Both dynos, when used correctly are there not to just measure power out put, are also there to provide load on gear box and engine when tuning a vehicle, load meant to be close to what would be experienced on the road... providing indications of when in the rpm the vehicle will need more fuel added to the mixture, or more spark and when to advance timing. I dont even think it is really possible to obtain the same power figure on 2 different dynos at 2 different workshops??!:confused:


I was merely pointing out the difference with a hub dyno as some people assume that all dynos measure power at the wheels. When you quote "fwkw" as you have - people think you are talking about power at the wheels.

That figure I quoted of 10-15% higher figure being shown on a hub dyno was something James' advised me -ie the person who tuned your car. It is not a rigid fixed percentage - it is a generalisation comparing it to something common like a Dynodynamics rolling dyno.

And of course, different dynos will produce different results - but a hub dyno produces a higher result. I am not flaming your result in the slightest - it sounds like a very nice car. Your before and after results are really what is important. Any chance you can post up a base line on that dyno so we can really see the difference? Cheers

[mattyd]

its all good yfin.. as i said i wasnt being a smart arse and was after your opinion on it. James advised me of the same, and from my own knowledge there is no 100% accurate spot on way of measuring power. As you said its the before and after and tuning of the car that is the most important.

i saw the results of the jtune stuff. was your car one of the ginuea pigs? you dont live, or travel around the western burbs of melb by any chance do you?

i do have a graph of a midly modded dc5r plotted against my car... unfortunatly nothing that compares my car stock to what it is now

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9272/semituneddc51if1.jpg

[yfin]

its all good yfin.. as i said i wasnt being a smart arse and was after your opinion on it. James advised me of the same, and from my own knowledge there is no 100% accurate spot on way of measuring power. As you said its the before and after and tuning of the car that is the most important.

i saw the results of the jtune stuff. was your car one of the ginuea pigs? you dont live, or travel around the western burbs of melb by any chance do you?


Nah not a guinea pig - just following the Euro project closely. The K24 has lots of potential - it is just taking so long for ECU management to be sorted. Live in Sth East suburbs.

Is there any way for you to explain (or guess) why the valves burnt and rings went on your K20? Doesn't sound like it was a high mileage vehicle. I presume it was also well maintained. Would be good to know whether I can learn any lessons to avoid the same problem with my K24.

[mattyd]

well to tell you the truth.... the engine was farked.... the complete pull down and inspection of the head and block looked like someone had previously pulled down the engine and performed a shitty rebuild. it seriously looked like a timing chain had streched or snapped and maybe bent all the valves... and the previous owner has had a shoddy rebuild done using used parts.. when they went to use the original valves.. they found that they were bent almost zig zag. i never over revved the engine.. ever i didnt even know what the limiter sounded like.. there was an engine sign on the head that indicated it had been worked on previously, but was out of view to myself and another mechanic who inspected the car. maybe an oiling problem was to blame? maybe a mis shift? who knows, i dont think i will ever know what really happened to it orginally. i do know that the head and block did not sustain any damage, warping or cracks. As it was previously owned i have no idea of its maintaince history.

1 thing my mechanic found was a problem with the engine and tried to think of a solution for was with the oil pick up being very very short, and the sloshing of oil could lead to starvation if driven hard or around a track on semi slicks. which lead to the addition of a baffled sump into the build, other than that he was and is still very surprised at its strength.

what are you plans for your very nice looking euro?

[mr_vtec]

current auto salon fwd na record is around 140 or so kw geez talk about alot more power from a k20!

how much work has been done to pull these numbers im currently stock motor running a k100 cai and a exhaust... i have future plans for cams and head work but for now im happy as to be pulling these numbers...a stock k20 is 127KW at the wheels...Btw this is directly to prusso not anyone else..


congrats buddy your a legend for doing something different rather then going the Turbo skyline that you see every corner...

would love to see the times this car can pull....


cheers
hassy

[EK4R]

may i ask roughly how much everything costed you?

[barefootbonzai]

yeah who cares about dyno numbers. time to take it down the 1/4 and let the car do the talking.

[fatboyz39]

yeah who cares about dyno numbers. time to take it down the 1/4 and let the car do the talking.

so true. Let the times do the talking:thumbsup:

[mattyd]

my thoughts exactly......... i will post times as soon as they are done.


you can ask about how much it cost, but i wont say... as my girlfriend my end up reading this lol

[mr_vtec]

haha lol..

um what you expecting to pull or hoping to pull

[mattyd]

i forgot to thank my missus for letting me drive around and being driven around in her purple hyandai (s)exel lol fantastic auto machine

with the current suspension set up i will be running some pretty crappy times... nothing but wheel spin and 2nd gear tramp

ultimately a low 12 pass.... im being pressured to fit happy gas by me mechanic who wants to see this blister a high 11.... and quite frankly im loving the idea of that


i did see your car at the last melbourne autosalon... and i was impressed. i didnt see the power run... but congrats on a very clean car and very very clean install of a k24 into the tight restaints of the crx. what suspension have you got running?

[sever_all_ties]

I think that is the same hub dyno James is using for the Euro project - if so power/torque figures are at the hub, not at the wheels. The wheel figure is typically lower by about 10-15%. either way very nice...

Yeah, i got my car (DC2) tuned there and it pulled 125kw. No way is it making that at the wheels lol.

Congratulations on your car though. Awesome stuff, and still n/a to boot!

[ginganggooly]

Nice work... 175kw is a truckload. Must be a good 150-160 at the treads.
Should do 11 or 12's now...

What did that goldcoast DC5R run on the 150-something kw output?

[dcoghlan]

a stock k20 is 127KW at the wheels...
I thought they were more like 100KW at the wheels. MISS R pulled 126KW at the Sydney AutoSalon with an Injen CAI, Toda Heders and Fujitsubo catback.

[X8TEENX]

127 kw at fw maybe..:D

[CivicOnBoost]

Nice work... 175kw is a truckload. Must be a good 150-160 at the treads.
Should do 11 or 12's now...

What did that goldcoast DC5R run on the 150-something kw output?

My car made 153 fwkw on toda dyno and made 145fwkw at Brisbane AutoSalon with a std bottom end k20 and toda spec C head. The best i managed to run down the 1/4 mile was 13.9 @104mph and this was spinning 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Car used to do 150kph in 3rd @ 9000rpm and 190 in 4th @ 9000rpm.

You need to get yourself a RBC intake manifold from the states and a 70mm BDL throttle body as well as a 3" exhaust, you should be making 175kw at the wheels with a full engine build. Your current intake manifold and exhast is very restrictive. Also if you do this you will need bigger injectors to feed it enough fuel.

Congrats on the build sounds like your very happy with it.

[mattyd]

thanks for the heads up on the intake... i was talking about this with my mechanic yesterday.

the exhaust is treating me nicely at the moment, and until it is holding anything back i dont really see me changing it.

im running rc 550cc injectors at the moment and a walbro intank pump, so fuel is not really an issue at the moment

[didz]

Yes but which intake system are u using at the moment, CAI/SRi what is it!

[todaek9]

153kw at the wheel, and you did a 13.9sec...you're kidding...does your car weigh 1.4tonne???? or you missed 2 gears????

hmm..the 3 inch exhaust, u mean the tip or the piping size???

[XP02ED]

WOW impresssive, very jealous!

[6000rpm]

153kw at the wheel, and you did a 13.9sec...you're kidding...does your car weigh 1.4tonne???? or you missed 2 gears????

hmm..the 3 inch exhaust, u mean the tip or the piping size???

he must have been on street tyres thus the 1st,2nd,3rd gear wheel spin and high time.

highly tuned k20a love big exhausts!

[NeRV]

that is awesome, congrats! i would love to have an NA making that much as a daily driver

[CivicOnBoost]

153kw at the wheel, and you did a 13.9sec...you're kidding...does your car weigh 1.4tonne???? or you missed 2 gears????

hmm..the 3 inch exhaust, u mean the tip or the piping size???

You really mustn't know much about 1/4 mile racing otherwise you would have realised that my trap speed of 104mph suggests that the car is capable of a much better time (flat 13 possibly high 12), and as someone else mentioned my times were done on street tyres spinning 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear.

The car was built for circuit racing not 1/4 mile, last time i went to the circuit i was doing the same times as GT3's and a 500hp R34 GTR, dont believe me then go to http://queenslandraceway.com.au/ then go to calendar and click on sprint results, then once the excel sheet opens click on the Wednesday Sprints tab at the bottom, name is Anthony Goulding.

Exhaust i mean a full 3 inch system from headers back. 2.5inch has been proven to be too small for a k20 with big cams and even JDM k20 with I/H/E/K-pro. Problem with a 3" exhaust is that its gonna be f'ing loud.

[TODA AU]

mattyd...
Great to hear it's finally come together for you.
Hope you have heaps of fun in it.

[aaronng]

Nice, That's 175kW on a hub dyno yeah? so on a roller dyno with your wheels on, it would read lower at about 164kW?

[mattyd]

so a few months on, the car is still going great... bar some jacka$$ managing to not see the massive line of traffic in front of me... or me at a complete stop.... but still its fixed and likes to be driven like no tomorrow

now a few things that have come from this build... oil temps were freaking scarey.. without giving it anything they were running close to 100 degrees and above... but an oil cooler fixed that

traction is now nil when taking off at anything but a feather touch, and its wild launching the thing at the hondata imposed 4k rpm launch control feature, 2nd and 3rd gear pulls are my favourite as 1st revs out way too quick

one thing that we have noticed is that there is a lot of noise coming from the top end. it almost sounds like a desil engine when on idle with a constant ticking, which then goes away within the rev range and oil pressure is up. We have checked all that we can and cannot see anything that is out of the ordinary ie tappets.

Whilst researching for alt oiling systems (stock oil pump doesnt really like anything over 8500 rpm) we found that with the stock oil pump design the head only gets 10% of the total oil pressure, being around about 8 psi (also explains why there is soild lifters in k20s) and that once the VTC is activated, by oil pressure, the pump starts feeding oil and pressure to the head at the same rate as what is in the block. Now this system is fine if you are running standard cams and springs as it is engineered to do this, however when heavier springs are put it and the engine rpm is low, and oil pressure low (8 psi remember?!?!), it can cause damage to the cam caps and rollers as there is not enough pressure/oil. Now here we think lies our problem of the ticking engine...
please anyone if you have any ideas as to what else it could be let us know. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Our solution... stay tuned for a dry sump system being installed very shortly anyone for constant oil pressure? =)

[urbanracer.com]

i was doing some research on k20a.org and found this product;

http://www.erlperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=161




ERL Modified S2000 OIL PUMP

Description: The ERL Performance Oil Pump is designed for the Honda K-series engines. This oil pump gives the Honda K-series engines the ability to run above 8500 RPM without cavitation. This product is the combination of a Honda F-series oil pump with an ERL Performance adaptor kit. This conversion requires a Honda K24 oil pump chain, tensioner and oil pan.



apparently this fixes the oil pump issue above 8500 rpm from what i've read on clubrsx.com and k20a.org

have you managed to take it down the 1/4mile yet?? interested in times..

[mattyd]

thanks for that! k20a.org seems to be a huge wealth of knowledge.
it seems to be the best solution for wanting to run a wet sump, i just dont want to spend the cash on getting the modified pump, and still not being able to get enough pressure to the head. as i dont know the low rpm flow of this pump either.

it seems that the yanks try and keep a wet sump as they are restricted from running dry sumps in a lot of their racing catagories

but thank you again it is food for thought!

there are some great looking prefab dry sump kits coming out of the uk (pace, clockwisemotion) which would probably cost the same when you factor in all the parts required for the pump swap inc baffles for the new k24 sump, the oil pan, and chain etc. and then its labour that is the killer lol

[7ypeR]

so did u end up taking it to the 1/4 mile or what??? :)

[mattyd]

lol, no time as yet. full time work is a killer, plus the accident took it off the road for a few months while insurance was being sorted/ christmas break where repairers close for a few weeks to a month lol, however calder has just been repaired relayed so i may be able to post a time sometime soon

[Weq]

Nice build man. Straight to the point, no useless parts. I like. ANd i learnt something new about k-series with the oiling issue.

[mattyd]

********************UPDATE************************ ***

My dry sump system landed a few weeks ago.... cleared customs + Aus import duties = in my hands now, ready to go on.... Take a look!

http://forums.clubitr.com.au/showthread.php?t=5084&page=3

A few more mods are planned, I have some Defis sitting at home, a plan for a custom tuned airbox and looking into intake manifolds from the states, if they can ever release them.....

I will post more pics as the installs start happening!

[barefootbonzai]

you had that chance to hit the 1/4 yet? It's been almost 2 years now.

[mattyd]

lol nope,

will be going as soon as the car is done though, that will be for sure.

ive done about maybe if im lucky 20,000 kms since the build.
I have been so time starved of late, hoping to turn that around and start driving this thing, flat out!

[RMN15N]

nice build, when does ur vtec kick in??

when i used to have my eg i had toda c cam's mine kicked in at 7.5rpm and redlined at 9k

[mattyd]

thanks.

cross over is at 5500 - 6000rpm redline to 9200rpm