changing engine mounts and sikaflex

[vinnY]

which mounts can i safely change without supporting the engine?

i assume the top passenger, rear and gearbox mounts i'll have to support with a jack + plywood but what about the bottom torque mounts?

is there anything to speed up the curing of sikaflex? few days is just a little too much for me

[Samo]

torque mounts and the rear engine mount can be removed w/o supporting the engine using jack

[fatboyz39]

Your changing the Rear one aye? Then i would sugguest taking off the torque mounts, which helps the engine move backward and forward so you can remove the rear engine bracket.

So rear mount plus the torque mounts would be fine. Engine won't be needed to be supported by a jack.

[vinnY]

nah i checked the rear one and theres no cracks that i know of, it seems like my passenger torque mount is cracked(will be replacing it from my ek4 and 'repairing' the broken one with some ES inserts)
also the passenger top engine mount is cracked too(the rubber has actually twisted and a part of the top has spun(will have to provide pictures to describe it properly)

also can i just repair my passenger top engine mount with sikaflex 252? i got a tube here and willing to give it a shot
anyone happen to have a guide to remove the engine mounts? can't seem to find one that shows how to remove the gearbox and passenger top mount

[vinnY]

just an update, the lower passenger torque mounts just totally busted itself and hanging on by a thread

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/683/brokentopmountux5.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brokentopmountux5.jpg)
thats the top of the passenger mount, possible to just fill up with some sikaflex?

[ACTI0NMAN-1]

you could, but it wouldnt fill evenly.

[vinnY]

guess i could just get a replacement for that particular one, hope its not too expensive

broken passenger torque mount (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brokenmountjw6.jpg) hanging by a thread!

[ACTI0NMAN-1]

take it out, then sickaflex it. dont sikaflex it with it still in.

but you should do the others soon. The sikaflex is a harder compound and with spread further stress on the other softer mounts.

[vinnY]

nah i was planning to take it out to sikaflex the top passenger mount(have to get the liquid and shit out too apparently?)

i got some ES inserts which i'll be using on the broken torque mount :)

actually could these two mounts be the cause of my shuddering on take off?

[ACTI0NMAN-1]

fair enough, i only have the old style plasic ones, no liquid fill.
Andy from akmotorworks was nice enough to fill my mounts for me when he did my clutch.

[JasonGilholme]

Yeah shuddering can be cause from a rooted engine mount.

What mounts are you planning on doing???

[vinnY]

not sure yet but i got some ES inserts for the two torque and rear mount
might just do the top passenger and gearbox mount with some sikaflex

[dsp26]

Flexane is the alternative to sikaflex as it chemically cures.

i've used sikaflex 252 on a few different engine mounts before and if you fill the whole thing at once, the centre takes about a week to cure making it pointless... i had to drill holes spaced out evenly to let the centre cure and fill the drilled out areas later... complete waste of time

you have to do it in layers.. i dare say 1cm at a time per 12hrs.

don't use sikaflex 227, i just tried fully filling a spare rear mount and there is only slightly less play than a hollow oem mount

***EDIT***
the alternative i was advised to do long time ago was to do a softer compound on the side thats going to be on the top and harder at the bottom. apparently it prevents excess cabin noise but gives the solid feel. something to do with the engine moving towards the firewall on acceleration... which means the opposite of that would be applied to the front most mounts.

[vinnY]

thanks for the tips dsp26

that flexane stuff, does it cure any faster?
i mean i sort of have time but wouldn't mind having it cure faster :)

[dsp26]

flexane fully cures in a day... but is VERY expensive... like ~$100 for a can + you need the primer to allow it to stick to rubber which is about ~$20. can only get it from specialist stores (maybe bunnings) but i only know of one australian online store that sells it.

the rating system on it is different like 0-100... 80 means it's got like 20% flex etc <-- this is second hand info from people who have used it.

Choice between Sikaflex vs Flexane is a metter of Time vs $$$. Sikaflex 252 is $20 for a tube from bunnings. enough to do ~4 mounts

[vinnY]

oh think i'll just stick with sikaflex :p only going to be doing 2 torque mounts so hopefully it'll do

with the top passenger though, any tips on hollowing out the rubber/liquid so i can inject some sikaflex in there?

[dsp26]

^^^sorry no tips from me there as i haven't done that part yet.. only the rear.

don't even know what you guys are referring to with the liquid.

in terms of just oem rubber anyway, sika has no problems grafting to it when cleaned properly.. i tried ripping a bodged one apart to redo but yeah.. pretty much grafted.

[bennjamin]

only do the TORQUE mounts :)
(on EG/DC/EK etc) the front lower two are fine to DIY since the easiest to take off / install). Do the rear engine mount if you want too.I have done all 3 DIY styles and its a bitch on your idle tho...say hello to new rattles and shakes all thru ur dash.

[dsp26]

^^thanks for the advice... i really couldn't be f*cked doing the sides with all the downtime.

which sikaflex rating did you use that caused the rattle? as i am trying to avoid that this time around but still have the solid feel... love the torque transfer!!

**EDIT**
sorry vinny ;)

[vinnY]

okay ran into a problem, is there a secret to unbolting the nuts on the top passenger mount to get the bottom torque mount off? drowned it in wd40 and rp7 and went nuts with a breaker bar and still no go
do i take the weight off the joint by jacking up the engine first or is there another technique?

its all good dsp26, its all good info ;) never just for the op

[bennjamin]

you mean the lower front torque mount ?
Which bolt/s are you trying to take off? The 3 x 17mm front , or the 19mm side or the 2 x 14mm holding bolts ?

[vinnY]

bolts i have to get off is the 2x17mm bolts(ones that need a deep socket to reach) off the top passenger mount to get the lower torque mount out
can't seem to loosen the passenger top mount bolts(the ones that are connected to the engine) to let it down to remove the bottom torque mount
torque spec should be 74nm but its won't budge, even with a breaker bar :(

also i should mention that i'm using a breaker bar + 3inch extension + 1/2" to 3/8" drive to a 3/8" drive 17mm deep socket
i understand that the 1/2" to 3/8" adapter is the weakpoint, but its my only choice at the moment because i can't find a 1/2" drive 17mm deep socket :(
that might be the problem, any idea where i can get a deep socket 17mm in 1/2" drive? tried bunnings and no go with them unfortunately

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5148/screenshot14up4.png
bolts labelled 2 are the ones i want to loosen

[fatboyz39]

add a longer pole to the breaker bar....they should do the trick :P.

[vinnY]

you mean extension or over the breaker bar to get more leverage? don't think i have any poles that fit over it :( looks like its a trip down to bunnings for me

[dsp26]

sorry to say i'm fairly confident you can't get 17mm in 1/2' drive... all the ones i've seen are at least 20mm..

can't get a cheapo rattle gun (air compressor extension) as an option? i remember seeing a cheapo one at supercheap for $49.

However, if you don't already have the deep socket you may strip the bolt with the gun.

[JasonGilholme]

dsp26: are you talkin about sockets?? I've got everything from 10mm up to 25mm in 1/2" drive.

[vinnY]

i just can't find the 1/2" drive deep well sockets in 17mm, i found 16mm and 20mm but thats it :(

will give lifting up the engine a go to take the stress off the bolts and try again with my setup, if not then i might have to buy that extra pole to extend my breaker

[JasonGilholme]

Go to a place like Trade Tools.

I was after a 24 mm deep socket and they had about a dozen in stock.

Should be able to get anything from those guys.

[vinnY]

looks like they're only in qld and sa :(
any one else in sydney know where i could grab a deep well socket?

[JasonGilholme]

i'm sure they'd send it to you if you can't find anywhere in syd.

good luck champ :thumbsup:

[dsp26]

dsp26: are you talkin about sockets?? I've got everything from 10mm up to 25mm in 1/2" drive.

yeah never seen em..

what brand? are they deep socket??

coz i would love that set you mentioned... would have prevented me from stripping a few bolts... espesh the shock tower ones...

i have the the deep socket offset spanner set... almost as good as deep sockets.

[JasonGilholme]

I got a all of them when i bought my kinchrome tools. Came with the big roller cabinet thing.

Definately reccommend them. Never stripped a bolt or broken a tool and i've done all my sussy work with them. :thumbsup:

They're not specifically deep socket but they're deeper then your regular ones from super cheap/autobarn etc. Did all my sussy work so they're deep enough.

I've only ever had to buy one specific deep socket and that was a 24mm from trade tools cause i had to remove my oil pressure switch. (hardest friggin job ever!!! lol ...should have done my rear mount while i was there lol.)

Let me know if you need any more info.

[vinnY]

the trade tool guys have a set, no sure what brand it is though
no way i'm paying $25 shipping on a $35 set though
might try another bunnings or repco, see if they have any

[JasonGilholme]

definately reccommend kinchrome/sidchrome or any of the other major brands.

You'll be surprised how easy the job is with the right tools.

I broke three of my dads rachets swapping out a daewoo matiz gear box but my kinchrome rachet (which did more work then my dads three put together) is still in one piece and workin fine. :cool:

[vinnY]

well just a follow up on whats going on
stuck the ES inserts and fixed the broken mount :) whacked it into my ek4 and i've only gotten one new rattle :p

will be sikaflexing up another set of mounts to see how it goes

now about the rear mount, does anyone have a more comprehensive guide to taking it off other than the one i found at hazone.com (http://www.hazone.com/hmtrmount.htm) ?

[vinnY]

going to try to sikaflex the passenger side mount, anyone have any suggestions as to how to support the engine for a day or two while the sikaflex dries?

[bennjamin]

a jackstand with a piece of wood or similar to disperse the load will work. Or even a milk crate etc works fine.

[vinnY]

is it even safe to use a jack there for a day or two? i'm just a bit worried about a hydraulic jack letting go after a day or so in the same position
not sure if my wind up jack is tall enough to hold it

[bennjamin]

not a JACK , a JACK STAND.
http://www.unofficialbmw.com/images/jackstand-2.jpg
Its metal and strong. Never use a JACK to support a engine or any part of a car for a extended period of time.

[vinnY]

damnit i only have 2 jack stands :p
guess i can see what else i can find around here, milk crate can hold it up for a whlie you say?

[e240]

you don't need to support the engine.
The top mounts and rear mount will hold it on just fine. just don't go for a drive

[vinnY]

but i need to change the passenger top mount, i think it'll sink once i take out the bolts that hold it in place, won't it?

[bennjamin]

yeah i think he meant the passenger side , which supports the engine.
You really should support the engine with a stand or similar while replacing one of the side mounts. Any of the torque mounts can be replaced with the engine as is and not supported.

[dsp26]

just get another set of stands... supercheap have a sale on right now.

though i personally did use a wind-up jack to support a 5sfe camry/celica engine when i was doing the side mount for a day.... oh and used a piece of wood too...

i used the big jack that came with the camry... and besides it's only holding partial weight of an engine not the whole car.....

that's a risk i took though and it's fine......upto you....

[vinnY]

2 old steelies plus a piece of wood seemed to do the trick :)
here we go!
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3199/broke1py9.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=broke1py9.jpg) http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/340/broke2fu4.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=broke2fu4.jpg)

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3374/fix1fq1.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fix1fq1.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1323/fix2cm5.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fix2cm5.jpg)

super duper uber broken mount, hopefully sikaflex will fix it enough for now, just a matter of waiting now. on that topic does anyone know how i can speed up the curing of the sikaflex? oven?

[dsp26]

^^^lol you got conned into getting the white ones too. they usually come in black but they ended up releasing a white one.. you can only tell by looking at the barcode.

but man... your old mounts look munted hard!! lol

[vinnY]

yeah its all good though, i'm a function over fashion guy most of the time :p

its nuts, no idea how the mount became like that, but i suppose i found out why i always got axel tramping on take off :)
we'll wait until it cures and whack it back in, hopefully it gets rid of the sound

oh and how do you tell the black/white barcodes apart? worth looking at next time if i decide to do it for someone else :)

[dsp26]

yeah its all good though, i'm a function over fashion guy most of the time :p

its nuts, no idea how the mount became like that, but i suppose i found out why i always got axel tramping on take off :)
we'll wait until it cures and whack it back in, hopefully it gets rid of the sound

oh and how do you tell the black/white barcodes apart? worth looking at next time if i decide to do it for someone else :)

yeah let us know how it goes... i'm just not bothered to do it on my honda right now as i'm not too familiar with the bits.. espesh the removal of the rear mount.


as for the barcode... can't really tell you off the top of my head, all i know is they have a seperate barcode on the shelf at bunnings.. they say BLK/WHT correspondingly.

[vinnY]

i'll report back if i ever get around to putting the ES inserts into the rear one
i believe its just space limited, but nevertheless we'll see how it goes :)

[dsp26]

bumpage.

did you end up doing the torque mounts vinnY? been curious....

coz i came across these:
http://i6.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/9b/15/84c9_1_sbl.JPG

[vinnY]

:O hardcore stuff
waited a bit for the passenger side mount to cure more, will be tested this weekend when i fix the front bar(lip is a little saggy and the mesh needs some new screws)
will throw some pics up hopefully :)

[dsp26]

yeah post up some pics of the fill job... and the possible mess you've left on your other tools :p

oh and let us know how it feels.... which sika did you end up going with.. 252?

[misteR_bilzz]

ur all over the joint lol =)

[dsp26]

ur all over the joint lol =)

lol watcha mean?!?!

oh btw all the mods ordered so far are all good!!!! you should come around and drive it and lemme know...

[misteR_bilzz]

lol ur contribution to this forum is above average but its all good cause its doesnt come without informative contents =)

hehe lil bullet! thanks man ill try come past after exams ill be all free next week wednesday!

[ZeForce]

bumpage.

did you end up doing the torque mounts vinnY? been curious....

coz i came across these:
http://i6.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/9b/15/84c9_1_sbl.JPG


What brand are these?

[dsp26]

any updates vinnY mate?

[dsp26]

What brand are these?

Avid Racing
http://www.avidracing.com/motormounts.html

These fellows are an authorised re-seller and ship worldwide:
http://stores.ebay.com/Got-Speed-Racing_Motor-Mount-Kits_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQfsubZ17QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[dsp26]

mmk did mine over the weekend... i'm convinced the only ones required for honda are the 2 front torque mounts.

I ended up doing the torque mounts and the driver side one only. socket extension snapped attempting removal of the passenger one and i could not for the life of me figure out how to take the rear one off without removing the intake mani.

anyways to report in, used sikaflex 252 (i think its 72a) on just the 3 and the drive this morning is amazing... i'm confident the driver one isn't fully cured but the cabin noise is noticable at warm idle (800rpm) not so much the cold 1000-1200rpm idle.

I did this for not the performance side but to rid myself of 2nd to 3rd gear crunch at redline and it is now gooooone.


on a side note, i knew the driver side mount wouldn't cure in time due to the width so i ended up placing metal washers at the top and bottom gap. straight after filling they all went back on the car while 2 jacks supported the engine (gearbox and A/C compressor) so the mounts wouldn't be pressurise while uncured.

torque mounts dried including centre (but not fully cured) within 24hrs. the driver still feels a tad soft (un-dried) in the centre after 36hrs.

[bennjamin]

an idea would of been to fill one sie of the mount at a time , to let it set in. Then once its semi-tacky or set apply the other ide carefully to avoid airbubbles. It should give you a solid mount :)
Remember guys to properly clean the mounts from all dust/gunk as any filler you use will fall straight out if not clean

[dsp26]

an idea would of been to fill one sie of the mount at a time , to let it set in. Then once its semi-tacky or set apply the other ide carefully to avoid airbubbles. It should give you a solid mount :)
Remember guys to properly clean the mounts from all dust/gunk as any filler you use will fall straight out if not clean

^^^yes the above is a great idea....

this last set of mounts i created proved my previous guestimate of DRYING approx. 1cm of outer depth (either side) of the mount within a 24hr period using Polyurethane.

I just want to make it clear that Drying <> Curing.




i've searched a bit including the DIY section, anyone have any hints on removal of the rear engine mount or want to confirm my hunch about removal of intake mani?

[bennjamin]

rear engine mount = PITA.

remove 2 front lower torque mounts , and unbolt rear mount from gearbox ( 2 x 19mm bolts , one 17mm upper bolt) and then the botl from the mount itself (1 x 17mm long bolt). You can then grab the top of the engine and slowly move it forward and backward to get the rear T piece out , then get easy access to the rear engine mount.

[vinnY]

cough

sorry about the lack of reply guys, just been somewhat busy with some stuff thats come up recently
finally got around to driving the thing and the axel tramping is gone :) lots of rattles from around the joint though, just gotta go around and tighten shit up and hopefully it'll stop some stuff
overall good and solid now :D
say is there a 'softer' version of this sikaflex? say i wanted near-oem feel but wanted to repair a broken mount, is there such stuff? maybe any old plumbing silicon? :D

[dsp26]

sikaflex 227/221 is pretty soft... i used it to fill me rear mounts... they've been cured for a few weeks... but when i squeeze them theres flex.. kind feels like its uncured inside but it is (i know coz i stuck a needle through it)

[vinnY]

will be putting in some sikaflex 221 soon into some mounts, will have to see how that pans out compared to 252 and the ES ones :)

still up for suggestions on a softer type! don't care if its just meant to fill gaps in walls, as long as it holds well and feels like stock :)