Help...Body Roll? Spr?Shk?SwyBr???

[iijjee]

Have read a bit about EG suspension on the whiteline website and other places etc.

My B16A equipped EG Hatch has unknown shocks and (I think!) lovell springs (maybe a little lower than standard?)

It steers beautifully and rides the bumps pretty well considering the 17's and 40 series rubber.

I don't want the car to be any lower (how do I tell how low the springs on the car are???) but I've owned 4 EG's and this is the first I've owned with such wallowy body roll!!! Admittedly my last EG had a H22A and coilovers (Tein) and it was bone-rattling over my bumpy local roads, BUT even on the softest dampening setting, man did it glue itself to the road.

I don't want to have that kind of unforgiving, track-focussed sussy, but I am desperate for a car that behaves well and doesn't work the stomach muscles as hard as the springs. The enemy is body roll. I'd love some ideas...

I know that more info would help but I've told you all that I know...

Today I took the car to Peddars and had the old 28 pt safety check... The guys inspected and put each corner through the "jelly" shake test. They handed me a report suggesting Bilsteins might firm things up ("I think so" was the actual response), told me the rear lower bushes are shot ($440 incl. labour!) which wouldn't affect the handling or body roll, and that the rest of the suspension was in great order. I asked about sway bars, strut tower braces etc and the guy eventually spat out that he thought the car "handled like it was on rails", "was amazing to drive", "I wouldn't change a thing!" and "stepping out of any other car like a commodore or something and you'd think that car's handling was awesome". Seriously!

Now I don't have much money to spend at all, but, what do the more knowledgable sussy people say??? If the springs and shocks are working well, would a stiffer (say whiteline) front or rear swaybar stop the body roll? What is an anti-roll bar? What about a set of kings lows, spoon progressives or maybe better shocks?

It's really mainly body roll... I hate it! I just sold my R33 4 Dr which had brilliant aftermarkt sussy. On 18x9's they were not too harsh, never bashed the bumpstops and the car sat so flat through the corners!

HELP!

iijjee

[T-onedc2]

Anti-roll bar = sway bar

Personally i'd fit good shocks (ie, Bilstein) with Spoon progressives and a thicker rear sway bar approx 22mm (waits for an EG specialist for sway bar thickness).
And replace bushes with urethane bushes if needed.

[dupac->]

upgrade or get rear sways.. did the job for me when i had springs in it..

didn't make the ride more rough.. heaps less body roll aswell.. felt sweet!

i would say swaybars as first.. then if not happy then try somethign else..

but im sure rear sways will do the job!

i had stock shocks & pedder springs.. + the sway bar.. and it handled well and not a rough ride on syd roads too.

bang for buck is the rear sways.. most satifisfying mod on my car lol..

[iijjee]

Thanks guys...

Common sense says front sway bars would do more than rear, with weight mostly over front wheels. But I have read a lot more recommendations for the rear sway... what thickness or whiteline part no. is rear sway???

Any other thoughts anyone?

[yourfather]

ignore peddars. the 28 point safety check is something you might want to take on board, but its a stupid marketing gimmick and will make you pay through the nose for shit you really dont need.

forgot to mention, you can get bushes sets for cheaper

[aaronng]

Thanks guys...

Common sense says front sway bars would do more than rear, with weight mostly over front wheels. But I have read a lot more recommendations for the rear sway... what thickness or whiteline part no. is rear sway???

Any other thoughts anyone?

A stiffer front sway will improve steering response but increase understeer.
A stiffer rear sway will reduce understeer.

So if you want a stiffer front sway, you should increase the stiffness of the rear sway to counter that understeer. Of course, there is a limit to how stiff you can go. Too stiff, and your suspension becomes like a torsion beam that every Civic owner dislikes.

[string]

Thanks guys...

Common sense says front sway bars would do more than rear, with weight mostly over front wheels. But I have read a lot more recommendations for the rear sway... what thickness or whiteline part no. is rear sway???

Any other thoughts anyone?
Well the real truth is the opposite to common sense. Stiffening the rear will take weight off the inside rear and add it to the inside front, and vice versa for a stiffer front. Ultimately you want to completely unload the inside rear, just like a rear wheel drive will unload the inside front.

Obviously for a front wheel drive you want as much grip on the front as possible, which is why you want a stiffer rear and as much weight up front as possible (though turn-in then becomes a trade-off from increased rotational inertia).

For steering response I think you should look to shocks far before sway bars. Response implies a weight transfer function of time, of which increasing front shock damper rate will affect far more greatly than spring rate.

[tune2look]

Just wanna say I am no expert so dont take my word as "word" too much.

firstly, rear sway will improve rolling, and response.

When a massive weight transfer happens, each swaybar end is limiting the spring movement by holding the LCA movement and it taking that stress to the subframe where the swaybar is mounted on.
I think that swaybar not only limit the LCA or spring movement, but also it has the effect of taking the corner weight more towards the center on cornering.(NOT to be trusted as this is what my body is telling me...)

Since there are enough people who give very technical informations, I am going to write a dumb version of my understanding. (For people like me who are looking for dumb versions or experience oriented....)

Everytime I am trying to tell my noob (or noobier than me) friends about rear ways on FF cars, I always use this example.
---------
When you are pulling a trolley from front that has only two wheels, and imagine it has the same amount of 'rolling' as your car.
when you move/run straight, oviously there wont be any trouble.
but when you take corner at the same time you are running (in fair speed), you will find your knocked over, or just about to.

Lets say you stiffen the rear of the trolly somehow (=swaybar), and then imagine you are taking corners with that flat assed trolly.
Your trolley stays almost flat and it will give you more support, hence easier to turn, meaning better steering response.
and for the rolling, limited spring movement = less roll.





Obviously for a front wheel drive you want as much grip on the front as possible, which is why you want a stiffer rear and as much weight up front as possible (though turn-in then becomes a trade-off from increased rotational inertia).



I dont really understand why we need as much weight up front.
that means your rear will have less grip and cause oversteer..
I believe it is alway best to have close to 50:50.

.................

[SINISTR]

Worn or OLD suspension bushes usually cause the car to roll around the corners more than normal. Replacing them with either new or urethane bushes will improve this and you will notice your car will not roll as much.

My question is: how do you know its roll and not simply BAD suspension components causing understeer which you associate with 'body roll'.

You said you have 'unknown' shocks and unknown springs - that would be my very first point of inquiry and possibly replacement.

You could be driving on OLD stock shocks and lowered springs expecting the cars handling to be better than good. I'd recommend making sure what shocks you have 1st and perhaps replacing them right away with a new set of damper adjustable shocks. Given your springs are what you said - that alone will give you alot more confidence in the way the car handles.

The reason your old EG handled good was because of good suspension components ie: decent coilovers.

Swaybars are the 'next' step in helping the suspension behave like it should during hard cornering, and i really don't think fitting a 'rear' sway bar as some suggested here, will solve your issue without addressing the basic components of your suspension - shocks and coils.

my 2c.

[aaronng]

I dont really understand why we need as much weight up front.
that means your rear will have less grip and cause oversteer..
I believe it is alway best to have close to 50:50.


Because Honda FFs start with understeer :p

[tune2look]

Swaybars are the 'next' step in helping the suspension behave like it should during hard cornering, and i really don't think fitting a 'rear' sway bar as some suggested here, will solve your issue without addressing the basic components of your suspension - shocks and coils.

my 2c.

-He clearly said he dont have much money.

-bushing will cost at least 250 aussie dollar, installation will hurt much much more.

-shock/spring will at least cost similar to bushing+installation

-More for coilover

-Swaybar 150 plus if needed, get asr or beak (cheaper, my choice) re-enforcement kit.

I have my CTR bar with beaks and I have no complaint at all.
Yes, it fixed my exact same boat-car to road car.

What you have said is right, no dout in it, but to fix the problem with less cash = swaybar I think.....



and... arrong, is it one of the proper way to balance rolling?
I really dont understand how that will work out.
if front has too much weight compared to rear, I can imagine a car thats with reasonable front traction with no control.
Can I have a little more details please?
Just a OH student trying to learn !!:thumbsup:

[iijjee]

Thanks for the thoughts guys!

As I said in original post the springs and shocks were inspected by peddars and they couldn't find fault with them... loved them in fact - supple, nice steering respnse, still firm enough to corner well!

It's just the body roll issue... In fact the more I have started to push the car around the hills near home, the more impressed I am with everything other than the S...W...A...Y effect! From what people have told me I am ready to order my rear sway. I don't want to have lift-off oversteer probs so I won't be going too thick. Am concerned about clearance with my 2.5" exhaust but am leaning towards an MFactory kit which is similar in price to a whiteline, 19mm and comes with an extra chassis brace...

http://www.mfactoryhk.com/products.php?category=Rear%20Swaybar%20Kit

Not sure waht a beaks swaybar is but I'll look it up. Sounds expensive! Any other thought before I press the magic "proceed" button???

Will post results when I fit it!

[bennjamin]

More than anything. More than hektci coilovers or whatever - jsut get a rear swaybar or upgraded rear swaybar to make a noticeable difference to your FWD's handling :)
Make sure you are running decent tyres and a decent alignment too.
Everything else can come later.

[tune2look]

BEAKS kit is not swaybar, its swaybar re-enforcement kit.
As 19mm seems too thick for your non-type r chassis, you will need a re-enforcement kit.
that m-factory swaybar kit dont look that good to me...
that tie bar with big plate could secure the mounting, but there is no support for the subframe and swaybar, leaving the issue of swaybar tearing the subframe under load.
I have seen other m-factory products and they seem very good,
however, rear swaybar issue for civics and integras been covered many times in this forum.
to go anything thicker than stock(14mm??), will need re-enforcement kit to prevent extra cost fixing torn subframe, not cheap.
I got my CTR(22mm) with beaks kit for 310 from yonas, JDMyard.
CTR 22mm swaybar was matched to CTR sport suspension(not racing spec), so it is never too much.
Get OEM goodies so you can sell at the price you bought for!

(I dont know how much I will get for beaks kit but $150 seems to be the set price for secondhand TYPE R spec swaybars.

[Hyper_Performance]

The tie-bar/subframe brace that comes with our kit is more than adequate for the 19mm swaybar that we supply it with. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have matched the two items together. Do a simple search on Honda-Tech and you will find various feedback on how our kit feels/performs ;)

At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference just how stiff you want the rear (and how balanced your car is). BIG is not always better.

Also to mention, subframe tear only affects the EK chassis. It does not affect the EG (which the OP has) ;)

[tune2look]

Even whitelines original EK did not have any subframe problem.
that is with the kit with out the re-enforcement plate like newer ones.
Still ripped subframes on other ek's.

To be more precise, that m_factory kit does not re-enforce subframe.
It does not provide any support on the other side of the subframe where the swaybar is not mounted.
It only seem to hold the swaybar bracket to the subframe and tie bar.

If you do some search on beaks or ASR re-enforcement kit, you can see why they are widely used.
They also include back plate to 'RE-ENFORCE' bothside of the subframe.
Please provide more information how your kit is actully 're-enforcing' the subframe.
'dont need that much' or 'our kit is good enough' with out any supporting fact is never enough for any company to explain their product.

As I have never seen anyone in person that has the kit or have experience with the kit, I would like more infromation from a dealer.
Even the price isnt too bad, havn't seen anyone talking about it.... may be it your chance to properly explain why the kit is good!

Yes, 22mm is pretty big compared to stock, but I dont think it is never too big.
I still have fair amount of rolling as my strut setup is poor,(only springs changed over...) so it is still far from a product that eleminate rolling.

And if I compare m-factory kit with my setup(CTR bar with BEAKS) as the price is similar, M-factory product can only stick with its spec.
But if I want to change, I can just change the swaybar.
M-factory kit MAY well be enough for its swarbar supplied, but definately too weak for... let say CTR/ITR/WHITELINE.... (22mm and up).



Please dont get me wrong, Most of the M-Factory products look like quality parts and differs to many EBAY crap.
Its just that some companies do not understand the fact that civics and integras have subframe issues, or maybe they dont count this matter too much when they are designing their kit.

[Hyper_Performance]

Nowhere in my statement did I say that our kit "reinforces" the subframe. Our tie-bar/subframe brace is NOT a subframe reinforcement kit like the ASR or Beaks (of which, btw, not even Beaks themselves recommend you use too thick a bar with their kit on an EK. Even they tell you to go ASR), and it does not need to be, as its designed to use our 19mm swaybar, not the larger 22mm.

The design of our tiebar/subframe brace is enough to prevent subframe tear on an EK chassis when used with our 19mm swaybar. Nowhere do we mention a thicker bar to be used.

What you have done is slated a product by adding in variables that simply do not apply to the product and its use. I do not see why I need to provide further information and supporting facts for something that is not relevant to our product.

Plus, as mentioned in my last statement, the original poster has an EG, not an EK. Subframe tear, in this case, does not apply.

[tune2look]

It was never my intention to dis your product.
IMO if you are going anything stiffer then stock (around 14mm), you will need re-enforcement.
At the same time, I dont think upgraded 18mm from stock 14mm is going to do too much.(it will since the car has none at the moment)

And yes the EK subframe is weaker then eg or dc since it has the same mounting points but shorter subframe.(that extra subframe thats not on EK provides extra subframe.

I have a friend who has BC n+ and ITR bar on eg.
He didnt feel his swaybar was safe,he actually went and bought ASR kit.

As you clearly mentioned, no re-enforcement.... it make the kit even more unsatisfying...

What this car needs, is what I needed, and I have solved it, and I am giving my best recomendation based on my own experience.

For the price being, having a OEM bar with re-enforcement seems to be the best choice for this car IMO.

[Hyper_Performance]

Yes, on an EK chassis, if you are using anything thicker than the oem 14mm, then you will need either a reinforcement kit to strengthen the mounting points (e.g ASR, Beaks) OR a subframe brace which takes some of the load off the swaybar mounting points (e.g MFactory, Comptech and ASR as well) and spreads them over the entire brace and also onto the LCA mounting point.

For a thick 22mm, you will need reinforcement as well as minimal load. This is why ASR is the way to go and not Beaks. Beaks is a cheap alternative that has seen countless number of failures. For a 19mm, reinforcement is optional, but you will need to remove some of that load.

Oh, and believe me when I say this, 14mm to 19mm is a hell of a difference. 5mm of extra solid metal is like night and day, just as 19mm to 22mm is a big jump also.

[tune2look]

off[/i] the swaybar mounting points (e.g MFactory, Comptech and ASR as well) and spreads them over the entire brace and also onto the LCA mounting point.


Mfactory one is just like old whiteline kit for EK.
I do not believe it will do such a thing you say.

Beaks kit is much better since the mounting position is solid block compare to m-factory and whiteline's flare type.
Comptech kit looks even weaker then the new whiteline for ek...

Just because of similar design, its not appropriate to put those two kit with ASR together.

Material wise, completely different, built quality too is different!

ASR kit is a complete re-enforcement + tie bar together.

Mfactory one and comptech is just a swaybar kit with tiebar.
Just because the mounting bracket is big and swaybar and tiebar mounts together, it doesnt look any better then old whiteline kit with tiebar.

If you are putting a swaybar on a car came without one, or upgrading,
re-enforcing the the subframe it self first makes more sense to me.

BEAKS do have additional tie bar as well.

I understand what you are on about, but I dont understand why you are trying to put your product in the same line of others.

Even most coilovers look similar to each other too, but quality differs.

[Hyper_Performance]

If you actually re-read through my post again, you'll will realize exactly what I'm trying to say and what I am (and am not) comparing our kit to. Obviously you kind of missed the whole point of what I was trying to say, judging by your last post.

Well, there is obviously nothing that I can say that will match your highly-experienced knowledge of this matter, so I'll just leave it at that and let OzHonda members decide themselves ;)

[tune2look]

I am no high-experienced at all! :p

When I got my swaybar setup, it took me few weeks of research.

You did give information good enough but lacked on your particular product.

All kits are sold when they are tested and ready to be sold.

But whiteline failed on some. (Still, 100x more EK's without problem too!!)

Your kit looks different, but the main structure looks very similar to whiteline.

To me, whiteline(old design) swaybar kit for civics and integras isnt the best choice. (same reason I have dout on your product)

I wanted to hear some better facts on your swaybar kit over some those that are known for less perfect.

Sorry that I messed up the thread.

[bennjamin]

This isnt a thread to diss or praise different swaybar + reinforcement designs. It is to discuss about swaybars/spring rates etc as per your initial question.

I have cheked the swaybar 19mm "kit" advertised on the above mentioned website , and it includes mounting for the bar and a tiebar in one piece. It is a very old design which i have seen on EK + EG's quite a few years ago.
But to the safety and longevity of it i have no comment.

[iijjee]

OK! Looks like there's been some hearty discussion on this topic. As I said, I'll probably order the MFactory kit. It doesn't seem to me that anybody is saying that my subframe is under threat on my Gli body 2 door EG so I'm pretty satisfied. I'll definitely post up the resulting effect on the handling of the car. I'm pretty certain my car has NO rear sway at all so I think there will be a significant improvement. Hopefully without excess lift-off oversteer! Thanks everyone... Gary... if you have any ideas as to how to fit simply, let me know. If I encounter issues with the exhaust I'll drop you a line ...

Now... off to the wife for some serious bargaining!

[tune2look]

Swaybar kit will be safe as long as you dont go too hard.
Good luck!
I'am sure "swaybar" will make you happy.

[Topendwarrior]

we should give bucket seats little bit more attention, some people see it as an item for interior decoration but the main factors are often overlooked.
body roll is felt through you seat and steering, a good support bucket seat would better inform the driver of the level of body roll exists.

[iijjee]

I've owned many cars and driven on the track a little and in my opinion, you'll get better feedback about fine-tuning your suspension with decent seats (I had Tommi Makinen Recaros from an EVO 6.5 in one car).

But when your seats are not holding you tightly (as in my wife's Camry!) you'll better recognise major body roll than in sports seats, I believe.

My standard EG seats are worse in the seat cushion than the backrest, in terms of support. And I have a friend whose car has good suspension, but shiny black leather seats, which (unless the sweat is holding you in!) do a very poor job of passing the benefits of a decent handling package to the driver's back and leg muscles.

My Thoughts...

[tune2look]

upgrading my ek1 with ek4 seats did alot.
nice seats!

[string]

Great seats are a huge factor in everyday driving enjoyment - combined with good condition suspension (doesn't have to be too stiff) and good wheel alignment and you'll get that fantastic feeling of being attached to the road, even at slow speeds and 'hardly turning the wheel' corners.

[Topendwarrior]

Can't Agree More!

[Bclub]

we should give bucket seats little bit more attention, some people see it as an item for interior decoration but the main factors are often overlooked.
body roll is felt through you seat and steering, a good support bucket seat would better inform the driver of the level of body roll exists.

spot on. You feel as though you become a part of the car... it will also give you much more confidence and will provide much more feedback than any steering system could ever give