JDM Euro R, which one CL1 or CL9?

[Breeze]

Am off to NZ and have been changing my mind all over the place as to what car to get. I have just got a job that comes with a company car so the idea of two cars (ITR for myself) will not be. An JDM ITR is no good for family cruising so scratch that one (nooooo!).

I went over last week and drove a Honda Accord Euro R. F#ck me this thing was hot for a sedan. 2000 model, full recaro (soft recaro rather than SR3 recaro), all the usual R good stuff, factory bose stereo, HIDs, etc etc absolutely mint with 70000kms. Runs an 11.5:1 H22A with 220hp 5spd box plus LSD. So I like this, quiet, roomy and fast weighs 200kg more than ITR but still cracks 0-100 in 6.9s. ($25K NZ)

But now I am thinking 2003 Euro R. I have met this guy who can bring in the current model Euro R with less than 10000kms. Now I'm am a big fan of the Euro. However the Euro R has the Integra/civic R 220hp K20A drivetrain. All well and good but I wonder about the torque? The CL1 (2000 model H22A), is faster, lighter and has more torque. The CL9 is much newer great dynamics etc etc and high potential for improvements, As I will be returning to Aus with it in a couple of years time it is probably a better option in terms of resale. I am weighing up the benefits of paying a $10-12K price premium for a CL9 over the CL1 which was simply fantastic.

Anyone else drive a CL1 Euro R and a CL9 Euro R and can comment?

[vtecinaccord]

Man please do not bring one of those over here i couldnt live with myself. Knowing that there is a Euro R in Australia........... I WANT I WANT I WANT IWANT

[Breeze]

I could always get two, only thing is you would have a year wait so it can come in legally as a personal import. The CL9 is about $35K NZ and the CL1 is about $25K.

[Jus-10]

That is a super-tough choice.

I think either car would be a great choice, but I would probably go for the CL9 for the simple reason that it is newer. Apart from that I'm not really in a position to comment.

Either way I don't think you can go wrong and you will definately have to post pics of whatever it is that you end up getting.

[Calvo]

fuk man... i am soooooo jealous.... u bastard!!!

lol.

very tough choice, but either way u cant go wrong.

post pics!!

[yfin]

Hey, these performance times you are quoting are interesting -ie 6.9 for the CL1 and you say the CL9 is slower (low 7s?).

A standard Euro manual can do 0-100 in around 7.6. You get a new 2004 car with full factory warranty... and not a HUGE amount slower than the times you are quoting. Price - $35k NZ (same as your quote for 2nd hand CL9 Euro R)

The Euro R (CL9) may be the same price as a new Euro but it is a second hand car, no warranty applies, and no parts support available when you bring the car to Australia. Insurance, I imagine would also be more expensive than the standard Euro.

I also wonder whether a Euro R will have better resale than a standard Euro in Australia. The standard Euro will probably hold its value better as it is available here via Honda Australia.

Food for thought...

Maybe I am being too logical. All of the above is me thinking with my head. My heart says it would be great to have a CL9 Euro R.

[Breeze]

Good points. When I was there though I went to Honda dealers to check out new CL7 prices. Honda have a no haggle fixed price structure in NZ and it was about $38K plus on roads. If I get one I should be able to get a CL9 landed for around $30K. The CL1 for around $20K either way that give a bit of change for any failures. I have been also thinking about an accord euro wagon. They look pretty trick and there are a few for sale in NZ. At this stage I have only seen Autos though.

What I am wondering is whether or not the K20 is an advantage over the K24. Given the torque differences you would expect the CL7 to be almost as quick as a CL9. The 300 mm brakes with alloy callipers and lower control arms are nice on the CL9 as are the factory 17s, the recaro interior etc.

[Breeze]

Leaning toward the CL1 geez they look hot with a little bit of work

http://www.geocities.co.jp/MotorCity-Rally/1054/friennds2.htm

[toE]

2 very tough choices indeed.

yfin - how is it that u reckon the standard Euro will have better resale value than the Euro R (if Breeze gets it here). I mean, it would be rare as, so wouldnt that be increasing it value if not anything??

anyways, if I had a choice, I would go the CL9. Simply because it is newer.

[bigdongers]

resale value is determined by a few things but I believe it all comes down to supply vs demand.

Most buyers of this type of vehicle would rather buy a locally delivered euro rather than an imported euro. So whilst the Euro R would be rare, I dont see much of a 2nd hand market for it.

[coladuna]

I also wonder whether a Euro R will have better resale than a standard Euro in Australia. The standard Euro will probably hold its value better as it is available here via Honda Australia.


You are wrong. It'll have worse resale value it the same australian-delivered car is available in the country. Remember that given the same spec (it doesn't really matter whether it has a few extra features) most people will choose Australian-delivered car over an import simply because they are considered more reliable and easier to insure.
So my advice is to get whatever isn't available in Australia. Don't buy a car that's already available in Australia through Honda Australia and think of importing it in to Australia. You'll regret it.
At least if you bring in something rare, you can sell it privately or even import car yards will be very interested in buying it off you.
That's from my real personal experience.

[Breeze]

EdIT. Whoops double post

[Breeze]

I figure spending about $30K on a Euro type R if I got the CL9. This is about 10K cheaper than a new one (CL7) in NZ ($40K no haggle price).

Will have it a year at least, and then should be able to get good $$ still here in Aus. Either way I get to own a car that I love and enjoy and if someone else wants to buy it then so be it. Although it is a limited market there are still enough people to know about them to make it still good value and good resale (at least as much as CL7). If I get it with only 10000kms on it, it is almost equivalent to a demonstrator.

For example, when I bought my 96 BG twin turbo liberty/legacy wagon in to Aus I sold it for $25000 after several years ownership (2001), the equivalent top spec locally delivered car (the liberty 1998 RX 2.5 wagon) was fetching around $20K at the time. A fully complianced private import is a worthwhile investment and for the select few (me included) these are the holy grail.

Warranty doesn't worry me, it gives me the shits to stick to dealer servicing etc and generally most hondas will not expire unless under extreme duress, this is to be a family car only so little chance of that.

The clincher is that everytime you pull up next to another Euro Accord you can be satisfied in the knowledge that you have the superior machine. Oh yeah, Honda NZ had a Euro R for sale, it was $54000. That equates to a $24000 warranty!

My big worry though is how superior? Does the K24 CL7 actually whoop it down low? And now the diesel, how good does that sound 3L/100km and all that torque!!!

[yfin]

I also wonder whether a Euro R will have better resale than a standard Euro in Australia. The standard Euro will probably hold its value better as it is available here via Honda Australia.


You are wrong. It'll have worse resale value it the same australian-delivered car is available in the country. Remember that given the same spec (it doesn't really matter whether it has a few extra features) most people will choose Australian-delivered car over an import simply because they are considered more reliable and easier to insure.
So my advice is to get whatever isn't available in Australia. Don't buy a car that's already available in Australia through Honda Australia and think of importing it in to Australia. You'll regret it.
At least if you bring in something rare, you can sell it privately or even import car yards will be very interested in buying it off you.
That's from my real personal experience.

A NZ Euro is same spec as Aus delivered. How will a private buyer know the difference? That suggests the value will be the same as a local car. Sure - a savy buyer may check the compliance plate detail - most will think, however, it is a car imported via Honda Australia if it looks the same in all respects. The Euro R would not fool many buyers - people will know it is a private import.

I still think a Euro R will be very hard to sell if it lands in Australia privately. Low demand equals low price. I wouldn't touch one knowing there would not be parts support and incredibly high insurance.

You can have your own opinion - but I don't think it is fair to say I am flat out "wrong" by stating my view.

[Jus-10]

I don't think parts support should be that big of a deal in Oz.

Panel wise you won't have a problem. Engine wise, you can get all the basic/essential items from your local dealer. It is only a K20 after all (albeit more powerful than anything available here).

If something lets go in a big way (say a gearbox) then yeah you might be in a bit of a pickle, but that goes for a lot of imports. Part of the 'joy' of owning something a bit more exclusive.

I would be more concerned with bringing in a CL1. Have an accident in one of those and you better hope it's a write-off. Imagine trying to get panels for that...the car would be off the road for months and months and months!

[coladuna]

A NZ Euro is same spec as Aus delivered. How will a private buyer know the difference? That suggests the value will be the same as a local car. Sure - a savy buyer may check the compliance plate detail - most will think, however, it is a car imported via Honda Australia if it looks the same in all respects. The Euro R would not fool many buyers - people will know it is a private import.

I still think a Euro R will be very hard to sell if it lands in Australia privately. Low demand equals low price. I wouldn't touch one knowing there would not be parts support and incredibly high insurance.

You can have your own opinion - but I don't think it is fair to say I am flat out "wrong" by stating my view.

As I do own a import car that was sold in Australia through the dealership, I think I have much better idea about this than you do.
If you ever do own such a car, good luck getting the same price as the same year Australian-delivered model because you'll never be able to. Didn't I say that it doesn't matter if the specs are almost the same? It's all in the compliance plate. A same car carrying a personal import plate will fetch less than the same car with a proper compliance plate.

I'm very confident that it'll be much easier selling Euro R. Let's use your incredibly complex supply & demand. Supply of Euro R in Australia is basically 0, so it's bound to fetch more than CL9 Accord.

All you basically said is that it'll be easier to trick buyers with CL9 Accord, which is a complete bullock and don't mean anything. Most buyers these days are not that stupid when it comes to buying a private used car.

[yfin]

A NZ Euro is same spec as Aus delivered. How will a private buyer know the difference? That suggests the value will be the same as a local car. Sure - a savy buyer may check the compliance plate detail - most will think, however, it is a car imported via Honda Australia if it looks the same in all respects. The Euro R would not fool many buyers - people will know it is a private import.

I still think a Euro R will be very hard to sell if it lands in Australia privately. Low demand equals low price. I wouldn't touch one knowing there would not be parts support and incredibly high insurance.

You can have your own opinion - but I don't think it is fair to say I am flat out "wrong" by stating my view.

As I do own a import car that was sold in Australia through the dealership, I think I have much better idea about this than you do.
If you ever do own such a car, good luck getting the same price as the same year Australian-delivered model because you'll never be able to. Didn't I say that it doesn't matter if the specs are almost the same? It's all in the compliance plate. A same car carrying a personal import plate will fetch less than the same car with a proper compliance plate.

I'm very confident that it'll be much easier selling Euro R. Let's use your incredibly complex supply & demand. Supply of Euro R in Australia is basically 0, so it's bound to fetch more than CL9 Accord.

All you basically said is that it'll be easier to trick buyers with CL9 Accord, which is a complete bullock and don't mean anything. Most buyers these days are not that stupid when it comes to buying a private used car.

You are a friendly chap aren't you? Lots of assumptions based on YOUR experience. How do you know I haven't witnessed private imports (like a 1995 Honda Integra) receive the same price on the private market as the Australian delivered model? You say it can NEVER happen. Do you know every transaction that happens in the Australian car market?

Things are not always black and white. Open up your mind to other views and you will be a happier person.

[coladuna]

Mind you, I don't see you being very friendly at all.
Aren't you the guy who got very angy and upset for no reason because a member asked around how much they paid for their car?
To me, that's as narrow-minded as it gets, so who are you to tell anyone to open up their mind?

Well, maybe buyer of that Integra was indeed dumb.
However, generally, you'll always get less for personal imports.
If you disagree with that, you are indeed dumb.
Let's just say that major dealers won't even deal with imports.
Even if it's an exact same car, if it doesn't have the proper compliance plate, they don't deal with it at all.
So that means your only option is to sell privately or go to import car yard. Given the choice of Australian delivered CL9 Accord and personal import CL9 Accord, every smart buyer will pick locally delivered one. That's why the resale value will be worse on cars that are the same as cars sold new here.

On the other hand, with Euro R, you'll at least be able to get decent money from import car yard. Also, if you choose to sell it privately, you are more likely to get better money for it because it's unique.

import CL9 will be very difficult to sell unless you price it much lower than locally delivered cars. That's a fact.

If that doesn't go through to you, you have no hope.

Anyway, my advice is don't bother importing CL9 Accord Euro into Australia. Sure it sounds tempting, but the hassles of owning an import won't be worth it. Just sell it and buy another car in Australia. If you do feel the need, import the Euro R. That'll be a better choice.

[Breeze]

Hey Guys,

Have a feeling I may have caused some confusion here. It is the CL7 I want to buy not the CL9, Derr.

Anyway, not thinking of bring in an import of the same car as released here, just trying to decide between current Euro R OR earlier model Euro R which is about 10K less.

So yeah only planning on bringing in a Euro R of either model. I am keen to know if anyone has driven a 2.0L CL7 Euro R and can comment. From what I have read they are the current favoured honda platform for Endurance racing etc as they still have double wishbone suspension whereas the EP3 civic R and DC5 integra R don't as they are built on the global platform which is shared by the passport (read this on TOV Asia I think).

Sorry for any confusion this whole accord game is new to me after living with the civics for so long.

[yfin]

Mind you, I don't see you being very friendly at all.
Aren't you the guy who got very angy and upset for no reason because a member asked around how much they paid for their car?
To me, that's as narrow-minded as it gets, so who are you to tell anyone to open up their mind?

Well, maybe buyer of that Integra was indeed dumb.
However, generally, you'll always get less for personal imports.
If you disagree with that, you are indeed dumb.
Let's just say that major dealers won't even deal with imports.
Even if it's an exact same car, if it doesn't have the proper compliance plate, they don't deal with it at all.
So that means your only option is to sell privately or go to import car yard. Given the choice of Australian delivered CL9 Accord and personal import CL9 Accord, every smart buyer will pick locally delivered one. That's why the resale value will be worse on cars that are the same as cars sold new here.

On the other hand, with Euro R, you'll at least be able to get decent money from import car yard. Also, if you choose to sell it privately, you are more likely to get better money for it because it's unique.

import CL9 will be very difficult to sell unless you price it much lower than locally delivered cars. That's a fact.

If that doesn't go through to you, you have no hope.

Anyway, my advice is don't bother importing CL9 Accord Euro into Australia. Sure it sounds tempting, but the hassles of owning an import won't be worth it. Just sell it and buy another car in Australia. If you do feel the need, import the Euro R. That'll be a better choice.

I don't necessarily disagree with everything you say about resale values. There are ways, however, of responding to posts without suggesting the author is "wrong", "dumb" or has "no hope".

Like I said, have some respect for other views. Sure state your own view - but you don't need to personally attack/defame others for holding a view different to your own.

[Jus-10]

Hey Guys,

Have a feeling I may have caused some confusion here. It is the CL7 I want to buy not the CL9, Derr.

Anyway, not thinking of bring in an import of the same car as released here, just trying to decide between current Euro R OR earlier model Euro R which is about 10K less.

So yeah only planning on bringing in a Euro R of either model. I am keen to know if anyone has driven a 2.0L CL7 Euro R and can comment. From what I have read they are the current favoured honda platform for Endurance racing etc as they still have double wishbone suspension whereas the EP3 civic R and DC5 integra R don't as they are built on the global platform which is shared by the passport (read this on TOV Asia I think).

Sorry for any confusion this whole accord game is new to me after living with the civics for so long.

I don't think you will be having any problems on the handling front with the CL7. As you said, they are starting to use the CL7 in some racing circles and phasing out the DC5R. No doubt that says something for the performance of the CL7.

Do you have the specs for comparison. Like a Euro with K24 compared to Euro R with K20? Perhaps the difference may not be that significant?

[Breeze]

The CL7 (Euro R) has 17" rims, Recaro tomcats, carbon dash bits, alloy lower contol arms and brake calipers, dvd/tv/sat nav, bose stereo, factory body kit, alloy pedals and bits, 220hp K20A, 6 spd close ratio with LSD.

Important specs

Euro R
220hp@8000rpm; 152lb/ft@6000

Euro
190hp@6800; 162lb/ft@4500

Notice how the Euro (CL9) seems to have the lugging power. Also has significant better fuel economy on paper.

The CL1 Euro R also has recaro tomcats, bose stereo, 220hp etc, 5sd, lsd
Engine specs (H22A) are
220hp@7200; 163lb/ft@6700..and it is 10K cheaper for a car as new with 20000kms.

[TakeiTeg]

I can always get you a CL1 and a CL7 Euro-R from japan charles..heh.

anyways charles, my car is done, well tomorrow anyways.
wait till you get here eh, show you what a kakimoto race exhaust with 4-1 race extractors and a bit of tuning can do to a CL1 euro-r engine :lol: :lol:

oh, get ready to have a sore back though, them aluminium coilover suspensions with increased stabilizer bar ain't really a very nice all round car. :twisted:

oh charles, give me your e-mail I'm not sure if you've received pix and info on my friends CL1?

and oh..good to see the new ozhondas

[TakeiTeg]

I can always get you a CL1 and a CL7 Euro-R from japan charles..heh.

anyways charles, my car is done, well tomorrow anyways.
wait till you get here eh, show you what a kakimoto race exhaust with 4-1 race extractors and a bit of tuning can do to a CL1 euro-r engine :lol: :lol:

oh, get ready to have a sore back though, them aluminium coilover suspensions with increased stabilizer bar ain't really a very nice all round car. :twisted:

oh charles, give me your e-mail I'm not sure if you've received pix and info on my friends CL1?

and oh..good to see the new ozhondas

[Breeze]

Hey Eric,

Haven't seen the pics.

Racecraft@bigpond.com

Thanks mate.