b16a vs k20?

[shadou]

just a question for all the more experienced people in the field of engine building and the likes, would it be wiser to build a b16a or just throw in a k20 conversion? looking at building a semi track car and the b16 is gutless as stock.

[bigjo5]

for a tracking car.. K20A ftw!

[dupac->]

b16a is gutless worked. haha

k20 of course

but really depends on budget

[.::F[L]Y::.]

if your building a track car factor in sussy setup and brakes setup and so on. K20 setups can go for around 12k installed with average parts. A b16a can go for 1/3 of the price installed. Which would leave you with roughly 8k to do abit of work to the motor and set up the car properly for circuit work.

IMO outright power is not the answer to a circuit car, you need to have a good combo of parts.

just something to think about.

[sitta]

very noob question.. what engine is k20a from? i mean what car is it from and what kind of power figure has it got?

[czy_sol87]

Y::.;1191269']if your building a track car factor in sussy setup and brakes setup and so on. K20 setups can go for around 12k installed with average parts. A b16a can go for 1/3 of the price installed. Which would leave you with roughly 8k to do abit of work to the motor and set up the car properly for circuit work.

IMO outright power is not the answer to a circuit car, you need to have a good combo of parts.

just something to think about.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
+rep

[shadou]

yeah I thought about the suspension first cos on track suspension>power output right?

[Drew]

Depends what you are going for...

Personally for my DC2R I'm working on a K24A1 block with a K20A head right now
Still deciding on the pistons and rods to use
Some minor head work
Set of ITBs

Tein Super Racing to start off with

Should be pretty quick

[.::F[L]Y::.]

yeah I thought about the suspension first cos on track suspension>power output right?

yep pretty much. Take for example wakefield park. A track with some tight turns i have seen hi powered nissans getting ownd by underpowered hondas. Theres a 1.3L swift gti which does 1.14 around wakefield. Has some light engine work done but mainly focused on handling and it runs circles around the 'bigger' cars.

but by all means, if you have a big budget and can afford a k20 setup and some support gear then by all means. :thumbsup:

but if your planning to work on a budget then i reckon a b16a would do as good a job around the track.

[matt]

very noob question.. what engine is k20a from? i mean what car is it from and what kind of power figure has it got?

k20's are from DC5, EP3, some FD's including new Type R, and the FN2. im pretty sure thats all of em.

k20a JDM DC5R 162kw
k20a JDM EP3R 158kw
k20A2 AUDM DC5R/UK EP3R/US RSX-S 147kw
K20A3 DC5 Base 118kw
K20Z AUDM DC5S 154kw (i can never remember what number this engine is 1,2,3 ???)

[JasonGilholme]

why b16 v k20

why not b18c7 vs k20.

You'd have mre power then the b16, and still have a descent chuck of money left over for sussy work. The install will be pretty much the same as any b16 conversion as well.

[tRipitaka]

why b16 v k20

why not b18c7 vs k20.

You'd have mre power then the b16, and still have a descent chuck of money left over for sussy work. The install will be pretty much the same as any b16 conversion as well.

i'd say he already has a b16.

[e240]

just a question for all the more experienced people in the field of engine building and the likes, would it be wiser to build a b16a or just throw in a k20 conversion? looking at building a semi track car and the b16 is gutless as stock.

Are you planning to use the car competitively or track days only?
That should be the deciding factor. If Track days, then by all means, use whatever the most powerful engine you can afford.

If you're using the car competitively, you need to understand the class you're going to run in and if the car would be competitive with the modifications and the class you'd have to run in.

and just a note to clarify, B16As are NOT gutless as stock. Alot of people totally underestimate a B16A because its a 1.6l only.

[JasonGilholme]

and just a note to clarify, B16As are NOT gutless as stock. Alot of people totally underestimate a B16A because its a 1.6l only.

Totally agree. I find the gearing and powerband extremely usefull for motorkhana.

The little 1.6 has definately shown WRX's where to stick their turbo lol

[destrukshn]

b16a's are gutless.
lol.
no i'm not being biased or anything, becyase i also own a del sol.
only in high rpm, it goes okay.
anything under 5500 rpm, it's a dog.
lol.

[tRipitaka]

makes noise.. goes nowhere.

people just look at you like wtf. (cos they're just cruising)

[JasonGilholme]

Depends how heavy your sol is :p ;)

Anyway back on topic. What sorta racing are you going to be doing??

[Q_ball]

I've driven Bong's Del Sol...and it's a nugget...all show no go! lol

But yes, depends what kind of racing you're gonna get urself into..
If money aint a thang...go the k20
If its an issue, then work a b16 and that'll go jst as well.

Remember what fly said though back on page one, sussy, brakes, tyres etc need to be factored into the equation.

[e240]

b16a's are gutless.
lol.
no i'm not being biased or anything, becyase i also own a del sol.

lol.

You should loose weight...LOL :angel:

[tRipitaka]

I've driven Bong's Del Sol...and it's a nugget...all show no go! lol

But yes, depends what kind of racing you're gonna get urself into..
If money aint a thang...go the k20
If its an issue, then work a b16 and that'll go jst as well.

Remember what fly said though back on page one, sussy, brakes, tyres etc need to be factored into the equation.

that's cos you weigh too much you beefcake.

but yeah, must admit though, the b16 is a much better engine than some other 1.6L's in the market.. driven a 1.6 BMW and DAMN it felt like 1krpm-3krpm in the sol..

but there's no comparing to a k20.. type R engine versus a non R..

[e240]

anything under 5500 rpm, it's a dog.
lol.

Ok ok..back onto the discussion

Maybe its just me but I have no problems with the B16As powerband.
To me, its a good balance where if you want to drive normally and slow, you stay out of the powerband and when you need to gun, you rev the bejesus out of the engine. Best of both worlds really and an adjustment to the driving style away from the norm.

Really its just like a motorcyle and maybe the reason why I like it is that I used to ride motorcycles which are all like that.

[destrukshn]

serisously, how much can a 1.6lt pull n/a.
sweet f/a i reckon.
overall, it is a excellent for what a 4cylinder 1.6.
there is no torque.
lol.

[JohnnyVtec]

b16a's are gutless.
lol.
no i'm not being biased or anything, becyase i also own a del sol.
only in high rpm, it goes okay.
anything under 5500 rpm, it's a dog.
lol.



;) You shouldn't generalise all B16's in the same category as yours. There is (Monumental) proof in research that many stock & modded variations of the B16b,B16a-1-2-3 honda engines are far from gutless.

If you say yours is a dog, i believe you:thumbsup:

[tRipitaka]

b16a's are gutless.
lol.
no i'm not being biased or anything, becyase i also own a del sol.
only in high rpm, it goes okay.
anything under 5500 rpm, it's a dog.
lol.

b16 in a delsol doesn't really help either..

pretty heavy chassis compared to an eg6 or ef8/9.. where there's so much more you can do for weight reduction..

[destrukshn]

;) You shouldn't generalise all B16's in the same category as yours. There is (Monumental) proof in research that many stock & modded variations of the B16b,B16a-1-2-3 honda engines are far from gutless.

If you say yours is a dog, i believe you:thumbsup:
i dunnoes, stock ones, are gutless, they don't breathe.
lol.
been in a ek4, eg with a b16a2, and my del sol, all about the same.
lol

[NeoNode]

k20's are from DC5, EP3, some FD's including new Type R, and the FN2. im pretty sure thats all of em.

k20a JDM DC5R 162kw
k20a JDM EP3R 158kw
k20A2 AUDM DC5R/UK EP3R/US RSX-S 147kw
K20A3 DC5 Base 118kw
K20Z AUDM DC5S 154kw (i can never remember what number this engine is 1,2,3 ???)
You forgot the Accord Euro-R's :p
Should be the K20Z1 for the AUDM DC5S.

[fatboyz39]

b16a are a very good motor. I know someone thats currently building a b16a that gonna rev to 10k. Don't under estimate them.

For track, suspension setup is very crucial. I don't see why ppl spend so much money on there motors but don't have the money to buy "DECENT" rubber.

[Benson]

Build up the suspension and go track the car. Practice and make changes to the suspension to suit. There is no point having a k20 powered honda and you dont know how to drive. Learn how to drive on the circuit first then get more power if needed. The b16a are a very good platform engine, and would go well in a car that has proper track set-up.

For example. A stock engine swift with full suspension mods can hit 1:14's around wakefield. They only have 60KW ATW :eek:

[fatboyz39]

For example. A stock engine swift with full suspension mods can hit 1:14's around wakefield. They only have 60KW ATW :eek:

Swift >honda muhahaha:eek:

[Benson]

Haha i think you should take that back. Last time i remembered i pass you along the straight :p and were 2 seconds quicker than you

[JohnnyVtec]

[QUOTE=Benson;1192088]Build up the suspension and go track the car. Practice and make changes to the suspension to suit. There is no point having a k20 powered honda and you dont know how to drive. Learn how to drive on the circuit first then get more power if needed. The b16a are a very good platform engine, and would go well in a car that has proper track set-up.






While i understand and agree that his driving skills & car should be up to scratch with the track, it doesn't make much sense to take his GLi out and fit/tweak/tune all the proper suspension+tyres to suit the track, then install a bigger or more powerful engine and completely different geared trans. it would be a waste of time as well as money if you ask me.


I'm no expert, however i hope you understand the validity of my point:thumbsup:

[JasonGilholme]

So you mean after the engine swap he'd have to redo most, if not all, of the suspension tuning thats been done??

[JohnnyVtec]

Well, it makes sense to me....:p

[JasonGilholme]

i see what you mean but i don't think it'd be as big a impact as you think.

How much weight difference is the motor?? How would it change the weight dist of the car etc They're the sorta things you'd have to look at.

Probably just need to get the corner weights redone and get used to the extra power i think. Most of it would probably be driver experience that would need to be improved.

I'm in the same boat as you though. Not much experience but a descent amount of reading.

I do know that a sussy setup can make or break a car tho so thats where i'd be looking at. :thumbsup:

[Benson]

I do understand your point but you don't need to change the suspension that much to suit the heavier motor. Maybe just put heavier springs in the front. The behavior of the car wouldn't change that much. As for tyres, always get a set of decent semi slicks for the track even if you have a slow car.

[JohnnyVtec]

I wasn't uncertain about the weight difference between d-b-k series as i am about the power outputs, gearing, braking, and steering. Example: you do 6 laps in a d16y4 ek hatch, then you get into an ek hatch with fully built B or mild K series and try to drive the car exactly the same.

Jason, i think you're correct to the extent that it would mostly depend on the drivers capablity and experience. however i do believe that there would be some differences in which even a well skilled driver couldnt completely absorb.

[JasonGilholme]

Definately agree! There will always be a learning curve and some adjustments might need to be made to aide the learning process.

:thumbsup:

[shadou]

wow so many input thank you all.

yeah I currently have a b16 and will be on a budget probably set my mark around the $20,000 mark or so, don't have 100,000 sitting around to dump in to a civic =.=. I'll probably be using it for a weekender tracker not a 24/7 full competitive racer so probably want it as road worthy as possible. I got mates working in workshops so labour will be lower and I have skill in the trade. Just tossing on which path to go first.

oh and it was a fully built b16 vs a stock k20 question, whether I should dump some cash into a b16 or just throw in a k20 cos I'm not sure whether the money spent to make a b16 match a k20 in torque and kwafw justifiable.

[JasonGilholme]

just work on power to weight ratios man :thumbsup:

[quangsta]

i say keep the b16...barely even touch it, just get some breathing mods and mb a piggy back or an ecu if u got some money lying around. lose some weight of the car, work on handling. then decide what your not happy with acceleration, torque, top speed, rev counts, powerband, gearbox then you'll have some idea of what u want and maybe someone with experience can tell you how to get there

i say this way cause either way you u gotta do the whole, supension, swaybar, struts, pillar bars etc anyway. why not do it first get it how u likeit then working on power. btw getting a b16 or k20 shouldnt really effect the handling set up too much (correct me if im wrong) but yerr...

[shadou]

hmm alright I was hoping to do everything at once cos the engine needs to come out anyways with the rebuild. Basically be stripping the little civic to it's shell and getting the chassis strenghthed with a bit of welding here and there esp at the joints, repray at it.

[quangsta]

so u already got a b16 in ur ek hatch but its dead and u need to rebuild it?? hence the question?

[AsH_]

i gotta JDM B16A...

i have no VTEC in it either... broke...

cbf fixing it... got no time...

i have had no VTEC for over a year now...

now that's a slug ! ! !


might fix it sometime...

[shadou]

eg hatch, b16 in it and thought it was time to get a good project going. So came here hoping for experienced track and people who have done such a conversion to shed some light on to this topic. I've done stupid things in the past where I was ignorant and not listened/seek advice to a problem and didn't want to do it again.

[e240]

wow so many input thank you all.

yeah I currently have a b16 and will be on a budget probably set my mark around the $20,000 mark or so, don't have 100,000 sitting around to dump in to a civic =.=. I'll probably be using it for a weekender tracker not a 24/7 full competitive racer so probably want it as road worthy as possible. I got mates working in workshops so labour will be lower and I have skill in the trade. Just tossing on which path to go first.

oh and it was a fully built b16 vs a stock k20 question, whether I should dump some cash into a b16 or just throw in a k20 cos I'm not sure whether the money spent to make a b16 match a k20 in torque and kwafw justifiable.

Well, given your reasons, I'd say a stock K20A. A fully worked B16A is going to be very high strung and might be abit irritating as a daily driver.

[Dylanamus]

If you're racing in competitions then isn't the capacity more of an issue. The b16a is such a good engine for its capacity that it's not difficult to make a competative track car with it, whereas if you're talkin 2l you're suddenly up against all the typical turbos etc etc

While k20 is alluring, if you already have a b16a and you're NOT sponsored, you're just being greedy/ilogical in doing an engine swap.

For the class you're already sitting in, you already have a car that can be made competative - why not focus on exploiting what you already have, rather than dreaming of greener pastures!

Lap times are so much more about handling than raw power, unless you're on speedways or something. Just look at how the EVO 8 beat a Murcilago around a circuit on Top Gear. Put those two on a straight, and the scales would swing back the other way.

[Dylanamus]

You know a stock k20a conversion will cost you so close to $20k on its own that it's not funny... good luck getting a decent half cut for under $12k.. then you've got engine mounts, axles, and shit loads of labour. Do a bit of research... :)

[e240]

If you're racing in competitions then isn't the capacity more of an issue. The b16a is such a good engine for its capacity that it's not difficult to make a competative track car with it, whereas if you're talkin 2l you're suddenly up against all the typical turbos etc etc
.

No, actually depending on the event you compete in,
you can be very competitive with a K20 in the 2litre class.
turbos are multiplied by a factor of 1.3, so a 2litre rex is in the 2.6litre class.

[EG5]

You know a stock k20a conversion will cost you so close to $20k on its own that it's not funny... good luck getting a decent half cut for under $12k.. then you've got engine mounts, axles, and shit loads of labour. Do a bit of research... :)

Back in 2004 when We were the 1st to do K swap in Australia it was expensive.

Now days AUDM k20a type R front cut is way under $12k. K20A AUDM front cut starts from anywhere from $6000 to $7500 ish depending on how good is the condition of the front cut etc
Add all the basic thing needed to do K swap : Hasport mount kit , conversion harness , header , clutch , radiator , shifterbox mount kit etc.

Depending on how cheap you can get on the front cut . Under $12k budget on parts only + front cut is do able for K swap.


b16a vs k20a ? been there done that ,I had B16a and B18CR swap before.B16a was a good fun but until you tasted k20a u dont wanna go back . Its completely a different world.

[Limbo]

One thing to rem is that the b16s are an older engine. As we get along there are gonna be less available whereas the k20 is continually being released and new products are being made for it.

Also b16 technology is over 15yrs old now. Whereas your k20s are still fairly new.

Rem when tracking your gonna break things might wanna look at availablity of parts later down the track

Suspension - usually its good to get use to the current suspension and see how your driving techniques are. it helps you to learn the limits of your car earlier and what type of handling you like. Then you can spend money on a good suspension that will compliment your driving skills and also be used to its full potential

[barefootbonzai]

you guys have got it all wrong. just ask some of the members on the forums. you should sell your b16 and put in some D-series power. It's the best!!! hahahahah

on a serierious note, there is no comparing the 2. i would say after pouring $15k into your B16 engine, you will still lose to a basic K20 setup. bottom line is $$$. if money isn't an issue K ALL THE WAY!

[Dylanamus]

e240: While that is a good point, the cost of the engine swap itself is so much, that his budget would need to be a lot higher to actually get even more power out of it as well as get decent suspension.

The reason I would stick with the b16a is because you can use weight reduction to get extra power. Do some actual racing and you'll probably find the b16a with some bolt ons and a good tune is plenty enough to have fun with. I would focus my money on real suspension, not JDM boy racer crap like what I have hahah

Anyway, it's all apples and oranges... if you've got $20k to waste on a civic, maybe you should be asking professionals for their advice, not e-mechanics haha

[EG5]

you guys have got it all wrong. just ask some of the members on the forums. you should sell your b16 and put in some D-series power. It's the best!!! hahahahah

on a serierious note, there is no comparing the 2. i would say after pouring $15k into your B16 engine, you will still lose to a basic K20 setup. bottom line is $$$. if money isn't an issue K ALL THE WAY!

Been there done that from D to B to B boosted to K .
K series FTW!:thumbsup:

[pornstar]

for 15k id get a b20 non vtec :)

[eg92b16a]

for 15k id get a b20 non vtec :)
For 15K you could get the whole CRV too... ;)

[pornstar]

not this b20 ;)

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4499/dsc00227bs7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[shadou]

hmmm might go and research a bit more into this then. think I might keep the b16 as a learner engine and spend big on upgrading my suspension and the likes.

[Dylanamus]

do just as much, if not more, research on suspension... I'd recommend avoiding the easy and cheap solutions.. there's a whole other world out there

[JasonGilholme]

hmmm might go and research a bit more into this then. think I might keep the b16 as a learner engine and spend big on upgrading my suspension and the likes.

i can understand that decision.

Good luck. Hope to see some good times soon! :D:D

[shadou]

lol car won't be ready for ages. Might take it for a few practice around the track before it hits the shops for a strip down.