DC2R Injectors on a stock b16a1??

[Dxs]

I have a full intake out of a DC2R.. injectors, rail, fpr, manifold.

Now i plan to install this on a b16a1.


I was just wondering, seeming as though i am running stock OBD0 for now, is it possible to use all the DC2R setup?

I heard they are both 240cc injectors for both dc2r and b16a1.
Is there any difference in the FPR? I presume DC2R is a higher pressure in the rail? Do i need to swap them?
What about this resistor box setup that the b16a1 has i believe..
?

[JohnnyVtec]

What year DC2R did the setup come off of?


If it's OBD2 they're saturated which means they do not require a resistor box. you will need to use your factory B16a injectors, as they're peak and hold. peak and hold injectors require the resistor box which is already wired into your factory harness. whereas the OBD2 injectors do not. either fpr will be fine.



:thumbsup: PS. great work mang!

[Dxs]

2000 apparently
so are the injectors the same cc?
what is the rating of the FPR's?

Can i remove the resistor box for the injectors and keep obd0?

[CRXer]

Both sets of injectors are 240cc

The FPR's are different, the ITR reg giving a higher pressure,so your better off sticking with the B16 FPR with your stock ECU.

Yes,just remove the resistor block & join all the wires together to convert to the ITR saturated injectors.

[Dxs]

ok..
so basically use the b16a FPR on the itr rail
and look into removing the resistor box..

and the fuel should be ok using stock OBD0 ecu?

[CRXer]

yes,fuel will be fine cos uve effectively done nothing, with the B16 FPR in place, except convert to higher impedance injectors which the ECU transistors can handle without having to have resistors in series,they have the same flow rate & all uve got is a fuel rail which is compatible with the ITR manifold.

[JohnnyVtec]

You can use either one of the regulators you have, the itr fpr will work without any problems incurred! :thumbsup:

[Dxs]

so you are saying itr fpr and b16a1 fpr are at the same pressure

i have the itr injectors and rail and fpr.. would rather use them because they are perfectly mounted then use the b16a1 injectors because you have to fiddle with removal of the spacers etc/a little dodge

[JohnnyVtec]

Both fpr's operate via a vacum accuated diaphram which is spring loaded=the lighter the spring the more pressure flows. I am not aware of any difference between the weight of the springs in the two variations of fpr. I can say with extreme confidence that if there is any difference between the B16a/B18cr fpr's output it would be miniscule........




You don't want Dodge, you want Honda:thumbsup:

[CRXer]

There'd be roughly 10psi of fuel pressure difference between a B16A & a B18C
I'd be using the B16 FPR........

[JohnnyVtec]

There'd be roughly 10psi of fuel pressure difference between a B16A & a B18C
I'd be using the B16 FPR........




:eek: WOW so how are you prepared to provide verification that your claim is valid? What is the standard flow rate of a b16 fpr, also what is the standard flow rate of a B18cr fpr? Where was the flow measured from? Was the flow measured from multiple locations so as to eliminate fluxuated readings? I hope you're not (assuming).

[CRXer]

:eek: WOW so how are you prepared to provide verification that your claim is valid? What is the standard flow rate of a b16 fpr, also what is the standard flow rate of a B18cr fpr? Where was the flow measured from? Was the flow measured from multiple locations so as to eliminate fluxuated readings? I hope you're not (assuming).

I know a standard B16A should have a fuel pressure reading of about 40psi(with vac disconnected) & a B18C should be roughly 50psi(with vac disconnected),I remember this from service manuals.

How are you prepared to provide verification that my claim is invalid?

[jdmTYPE R]

u can use the itr injectors but u will need to change the injector plugs odbo plugs is different to obd2 plugs

[JohnnyVtec]

I know a standard B16A should have a fuel pressure reading of about 40psi(with vac disconnected) & a B18C should be roughly 50psi(with vac disconnected),I remember this from service manuals.

How are you prepared to provide verification that my claim is invalid?




I regret having to inform you that your memory alone is not a bible of factual information. if you wish for me to (further disprove you), barre you're already admitting that you cannot provide any independant proof of your self proclaimed 10psi difference. i will give you time to think about your next post, in that i hope you can source something to back your challenging claim of 10psi difference in the previously mentioned fpr standard operational form.


Just remember it was you who challenged me, not vice versa.... ;)

[CRXer]

Quote EF B16A1 service manual
"Pressure should be:
240-279kPa(35-41psi)
(with the regulator vacuum disconnected)"

Quote DC2 B18C service manual
"Pressure should be:
320-370kPa(47-54psi)
(with the fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose disconnected & pinched)"

(i dont know how to copy things from pdf's so u'll have to look at it yourself to verify)

Im not challenging u johnny,u will find if u read back a bit further Im actually defending my claim about using the B16 reg to begin with as opposed to the ITR reg.I could imagine the higher pressure reg messing with the economy & drivability of the stock ECU fuel maps.

[JohnnyVtec]

:thumbsup: Fair enough, even if we use these numbers you've provided. There's only a possibly difference of 6-13psi. I agree with you that it is (possible) that the b16a ecu may not be able to entirely diminish the possible extra 6-13psi. It is also possible that the difference may not have any effect on the economy whatsoever, especially with slightly hotter plugs good leads and free flowing exhaust. In fact, if anything, it would most likely require the additional 6-13psi to assist richening the mixtures with the additional airflow of the type r manifold. I personally had to use an adjustable fpr with my ITR typhoon.



Cheers,

PS. is that B18c figure for B18c-B18c-R?

[Dxs]

ok so i need the plugs too..

is it a basic replacement for plugs.. like 2 wire splice per plug?

and removal of the injector box
and replace the fpr



and most of the time tunes lean factory maps.. so i would say more pressure would be a bad thing?

[pornstar]

Dan, careful, removing resistor box isnt in regards to injectors, its in regard to ecu, ie not how the injector spray type, its how the ecu gives/takes power. just be clear on what your doing before you do it, or you run the risk of frying good ecus

[Dxs]

i understand..

well i am going to go obd1 in the near future.. maybe a few months.
do obd1 b series run saturated injectors... hence 0 risk as apposed to obd0?

[Dxs]

also do all DC2R's come with obd2 and/or saturated..

might be worth confirming first

[JohnnyVtec]

Dc2R's came with OBD2a 96-98 99-01 came with OBD2b both harness's have standard provisions for saturated injectors.




:thumbsup:

[CRXer]

PS. is that B18c figure for B18c-B18c-R?

Yes,all B18C's got same fuel pressure

Most post '92 hondas have got high impedance(saturated) injectors except some accords & some other model,but all post '96 hondas have them.
I think u'll find all OBD1 and later B series have saturated injectors.

U prob should do the whole OBD swap now & try get an OBD1 engine harness & dizzy.

[JohnnyVtec]

ok so i need the plugs too..

is it a basic replacement for plugs.. like 2 wire splice per plug?

and removal of the injector box
and replace the fpr



and most of the time tunes lean factory maps.. so i would say more pressure would be a bad thing?





In regards to more pressure, you've just installed an intake manifold which flow's a sh*tload more cfm than a b16 manifold in the upper rpm range not to mention the fact that you're getting your throttlebody bored.

In regards to factory maps, (put simply) B series honda maps come with too much timing in the upper rpms to try and compensate for the large amounts of fuel they have to run due to the flow capablities that the B series have. By adding a more capable intake manifold and throttlebody, you have just performed a modification which will lean your engine. You will require more fuel in order for your engine to last and make good power, hence my suggestion that you use the itr fpr.




:thumbsup:

[Dxs]

so OBD1 b vtec ecus are fine with DC2R injectors..

i understand what you are saying johnny.. but the fuel is still calculated from rpm and map basically yes? Hence larger TB and mani shouldnt skew AFR's that much?

maybe i will invest in a wideband with a gauge too..

[Dylanamus]

I'm keeping an eye on your resarch, mr dxs. I'm interested in how it all goes, as when I finally get around to CTR internals, I'll be looking at an ITR fuel/air system too. Pitty I can't actually contribute at this stage, so just consider this post some moral support hehe

[ProECU]

Interesting,
im going to stick my neck out and say that he would likely be making more power before ANY of the suggested FPR & rail changes suggested in this thread.

Remember, Hondas run rich from factory, and at max torque at Wide Open Throttle (in vtec), peak timing is 26-27 deg advance, everywhere else its 24deg.


In regards to more pressure, you've just installed an intake manifold which flow's a sh*tload more cfm than a b16 manifold in the upper rpm range not to mention the fact that you're getting your throttlebody bored.

In regards to factory maps, (put simply) B series honda maps come with too much timing in the upper rpms to try and compensate for the large amounts of fuel they have to run due to the flow capablities that the B series have. By adding a more capable intake manifold and throttlebody, you have just performed a modification which will lean your engine. You will require more fuel in order for your engine to last and make good power, hence my suggestion that you use the itr fpr.

:thumbsup:

[JohnnyVtec]

You should know by now that i have already done this swap. I've already provided you with the best answers i can.




I'm not going to force you:thumbsup:

[JohnnyVtec]

Interesting,
im going to stick my neck out and say that he would likely be making more power before ANY of the suggested FPR & rail changes suggested in this thread.

Remember, Hondas run rich from factory, and at max torque at Wide Open Throttle (in vtec), peak timing is 26-27 deg advance, everywhere else its 24deg.




Already done the swap, it's too lean without more psi. (I'm not a tuner by any means) however i will say that my slightly modded B16a2 is making around 165whp on 25total and an afr that still needs work down low yet, soon to be 12.8 across.


As far as honda's running rich from factory, I've hypothesized there's a reason for it. As previously explained my theory is, high flow cfm cyl head and manifold from factory needs extra fuel to deal with the air.

If you were on the coast i would be eager to perform some tests with you present to either confirm or deny in front of you. I've done my best to explain, if you don't see what i mean. i musn't have done a very good job.

[ProECU]

how lean is lean? what afr's?

[JohnnyVtec]

Lean is 14.9-17.0+




Final post, Cheers....:thumbsup:

[Dxs]

**** johnny.. dont take it so personally

running rich is a typical safety thing..


so you are saying using a itr intake mani and a bored tb will make the car run lean

[JohnnyVtec]

:thumbsup: Absolutely 100% Correct! if you weren't running itr fpr i would have suggested that you use an adjustable fpr. you may still need an adjustable fpr, because the itr fuel pump flows more fuel than the b16 fuel pump flows.

I'm not taking it personally mang, it just gets annoying repeating myself...:p



Honestly, anyone who doesn't believe me. No worries, you'll learn the hard way. As for anyone who wishes to debate the matter, you supply the dyno time locally/maybe even a plx. I'll take the day off work to bring my car, my stock ecu, i'll even buy a stock fpr, and we can do this....:thumbsup:


PS. You're a stingy bastard:wave:

[Dxs]

stingy?

would you like to explain one thing to me..
if the ecu calculates the injector duration based on RPM and MAP values.. how would an intake mani and tb affect the AFR so dramatically?


also using say a walbro fuel pump.. will that increase the pressure?

[JohnnyVtec]

yes (STINGY) as in you havent even offered a thank you.(Dont bother)








That being said, I'm sure you won't be uneasy with my being finished answering any more of your questions.:wave: Best of luck to you......

[Dxs]

you are taking my cynicism as personal attacks,
where as i am just trying to learn/understand things

i am going to have to get a wideband with meter kit... to see what conclusions i come to

can anyone else answer my q's as to manifold and tb boring in relation to how the ecu will calculate the fuel?
and if aftermarket pumps do increase fuel pressure?

[ProECU]

Lean is 14.9-17.0+

Final post, Cheers....:thumbsup:

lol, 2-5 a/f points leaner with just a TB & mani change,lol

you'd be dangerous if you found the other 1/2 of your brain

[Edgeauto]

stingy?

would you like to explain one thing to me..
if the ecu calculates the injector duration based on RPM and MAP values.. how would an intake mani and tb affect the AFR so dramatically?


also using say a walbro fuel pump.. will that increase the pressure?

Afermarket fuel pump increase flow not pressure, pressure is controled by the regulator. Same deal for the better flowing manifold you will have more air at the same map readings,thats why it will lean out abit.

[bennjamin]

you may still need an adjustable fpr, because the itr fuel pump flows more fuel than the b16 fuel pump flows.Can someone explain how is the fuel pump relevant , when a ITR engine will run 100% fine in a converted EK or EG which both come with B16a2 or less ( D series engines) with stock fuel pumps.
As long as you use the FPR to suit the engine it will work fine correct ?

[CRXer]

Can someone explain how is the fuel pump relevant , when a ITR engine will run 100% fine in a converted EK or EG which both come with B16a2 or less ( D series engines) with stock fuel pumps.
As long as you use the FPR to suit the engine it will work fine correct ?

There is a certain margin in the stock fuel pump to cope with a capacity increase,it would be unwise of honda to give u a fuel pump that can just barely cope with your D series.U could run smaller than 5/16" lines in your car too,but these are overarated as well,nothing runs on the limit,everything is overrated.

U might find yourself running into question marks on how well your D series pump can handle an ITR engine & fouling injectors/dirty fuel filter,etc.The stock pump can handle the unclean variables but u have thrown in another variable with a capacity increase.It might still cope but its getting closer to its limit than the proper ITR pump will be at,if u know what i mean.

As long as u got the FPR to suit your tune,a well maintained fuel system,a fuel pump in good workin order,then the D series pump should be able to cope with a relatively small 0.2 capacity increase.

[Dxs]

ok, thoughts so far is that

injectors will need corresponding plugs.. and all DC2R's are OBD2?
remove the resistor box and the OBD0 should be fine, but there is a risk of frying it because of the increased power needed for the dc2r injectors

and mani and bored tb is debatable if it will make it run lean.. probably best to get some wideband setup to test it myself (will come in handy later too)

pump has no relation to pressure and only flow (will prob upgrade anyway due to the pump being 17 years old now)

[Edgeauto]

If I was doing it I would whack a wideband on it and start with the B16 reg, if its too lean put the B18 reg on and test again. Then if its still too lean put a adjustable reg on it or just convert to OBD1 and give it a proper tune. It is also a good idea to listing for detonation and adjust timing to suit.

[CRXer]

remove the resistor box and the OBD0 should be fine, but there is a risk of frying it because of the increased power needed for the dc2r injectors


You only risk frying the ECU if u put the original B16A injectors in without the resistor block.The ITR injectors arent higher power, they are higher impedance,which means less current is seen by the ECU than it would see with the B16A injectors without the resistor block.

[Dxs]

thanks for clarification crxer

so all DC2R injector plugs are the same?

[ECU-MAN]

they should be.

obd2 connectors

[Dxs]

ok.. well here is my follow up post..

I have now DC2R manifold, 64mm TB and B16a1 injectors with DC2R rail..

also using the b16a1 FPR
some said that using this FPR will make my car run real lean, and i would need to use the DC2R FPR..

well it seems the b16a1 is fine, under load and WOT the AFR's stick around 13.0 which is the same as when the intake was stock..

under low load it seems as though the AFR's are a tad leaner, but the o2 should be controlling them.. so i guess i am wrong/its irrelevant

[pornstar]

the fprs regulate only pressure dan, therefore if u put on a pressure gauge, if they produce the same rail pressures, then they are effectively the same fpr.

[Edgeauto]

Also the o2 sensor stops trimming fuel after about 75% TPS.

[Dxs]

the fprs regulate only pressure dan, therefore if u put on a pressure gauge, if they produce the same rail pressures, then they are effectively the same fpr.

i know what a FPR does
if you have read the thread there was discussion that the DC2R FPR runs at a higher pressure than the B16A1 and that... bla bla bla, it is all in the thread


my post is relevant for people that have read the thread

[ProECU]

I can say with extreme confidence that if there is any difference between the B16a/B18cr fpr's output it would be miniscule........


couldn't be further from the truth.

The type-R FPR is 50psi
the stockies come in both a 36psi and a 43psi variety.

This is why the 1.8l Type=R's use the same 240cc injector as the B16's.

[pornstar]

sorry my bad


i know what a FPR does
if you have read the thread there was discussion that the DC2R FPR runs at a higher pressure than the B16A1 and that... bla bla bla, it is all in the thread


my post is relevant for people that have read the thread