Change in total spring rate with/without swaybar?

[tune2look]

First of all, I'd like to say thanks to whiteline and other OH members for good information on thread [http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2205&page=9&pp=12].

Although it is pretty straight forward what peps been talking about, but as every indivisuals have their own thoughts, and I know they all differ even they are saying the same thing.

for example, when tinkerbell said he downrated 10 -> 8 front, 8 -> 6 rear for street comfort.
But F8, R6 wasnt a comfortable ride to me. (oviously, depending on brands, ride quality can differ due to different dampers.)

Current situation:

I currently have dobinson?? springs that I heard its made in kings factory with kings spec and so it is, soft.
I have put rear ctr swaybar and now I have pretty firm rear end.
but the problem is, my front is acting stupid.
Nothing major, but on certain 5~70km/h street corners, although front rolling's also been improved, but I feel that my front tires loosing grip.
It never losts grip, but I can certainly feel its loosing it.
Because of this, when I am cornering, my front turns and it rolls a bit then when my firm rear sussy should make my car turn sharper but instead, my front slides out a bit and my rear slides and rolls alot and oversteer great amount.
I believe having front sway will help(which I am getting very soon...) and also I know my springs are too soft anyways.

Wanted outcome:

The combination for spring and sway explained by whiteline did convince me a great time.
As I have never been to a track so I wouldnt have a clue what the best setup for the purpose, but I need a very streetable car.(my only car)
My work is at CBD and I am in hills area. Unless I pay $9.60 daily for toll, I have to take pacific h/way or parra rd.

What I need to know:

lets say the front weighs 600kg and rear weighs 400kg and even ratio left to right.
If my spring is 6kg/mm front, straight type, then already 100mm is droped by just installing them.
So, if the body rolls under 15%, one side will drop another 7~8mm and raise the same on other side. (theoradically???)
If I find out my curve weight, then I can prolly find the best spring rates and height. (I know I dont have to know these to get srpings :o )

Finally, my main question is how does the swaybars affect the spring rate?
Can it be caculated according to the diameter of the bars?
Is there any difference as in behavier between solid and hollow, other then the fact that hollow need to be larger to have same stiffness as solid ones?

As I am a newbie who never had a chance to run on tracks, my knowledges are based on research and street driving.
So.... as my signiture says... please correct me if I'm wrong.

[T-onedc2]

Would you consider buying some low km EK9 CTR stock suspension?

On my DC2 I have ITR suspension, and although I'd like it to sit a little bit lower at the rear in particular, it really is an excellent setup for control and comfort on the street.

The reason I say this is because for perhaps less than $400 you could have a better quality & better matched spring vs shock combination than almost anything available. If you don't like it, then you haven't spent much, it's easy to sell to someone else, and you will then know how good properly matched springs and shocks can feel compared to Kings etc.

[iced]

if you want to know the spring rate call or email kings and they will tell you the rate.

whiteline will tell you that their springs are made for street so they are uprated but not crazy stiff.

the ideal way to reduce bodyroll is upgrade swaybars.

[tune2look]

I dont think I really have to upgrade my rear swaybar as it is already 22mm.

Also, I was thinking of CTR suspension but I'm just worrying about its age.

but yonas will call me if he gets one in.

I also have cusco front coilovers that was off EG6 halfcut.

I have taken it off since the front and rear had too much difference as in rates. (if anybody wanna buy, pm)

And I dont really want to ask kings or what ever to find out my spring rate cuz my spring will never exceed 3 kg/mm (too soft).

I need replacement anyway.

How about 5~6kg front 3~4kg rear with 26mm front sway and 22mm rear sway?

My car is not track oriented nor show purpose... I need a car that can beat other SOHCs and B16's with sussy setup and skill (at track), at the same time reasonable ride quality is a must.

Once again, this is my daily driven car, and its going to go on track monthly or fortnightly...

well... keep it up guys~ thanks for your replies.

[tune2look]

well, above is the answer to the replies but I still havnt got my answers on effect of swaybar as in total rate!

[T-onedc2]

I'm not completely sure what you mean, but a sway bar does not affect spring rate in any way.

If the left and right suspension compresses equally on both sides simultaneously while going over a bump, the sway bar will not have any movement to try to prevent. However if the left and right compress different amounts, then the sway bar will be trying to limit the amount of difference between the two.

On a less than perfect road with bumps here and there, unevenly on the left or right, you will feel more stiffness in the rear of the car as the car won't rock either side too much. Likewise, while cornering on a bumpy surface the rear will feel noticably stiffer too, as well as staying flat giving good turn-in at the front tyres.

Hope this makes sense

[bennjamin]

Spring rates stay constant and a swaybar limits movement of the suspension ( much like any other contributing factor , such as changed weight etc)

[tune2look]

Hm... but wouldn't the swaybar still spread some amount of stress to both springs when cornering?
I am trying to find out how bigger swaybars will act compare to smaller ones.
Oviously they will be firmer -_-;
Its just that when whiteline said I can choose springs soft if swaybars matches, I was thinking there must be a way to calculate in theory how it can affect the spring movement.
If it cannot, I assume trial and error is the only way to find out?
Its just too hard to find someone with thicker then 22mm swaybars with rather softer springs.

[T-onedc2]

As a reference I have a 23mm JDM ITR rear sway bar (stock VTiR is 14mm) fitted with my ITR suspension, the spring's aren't really hard when compared to coilovers, their rates are: front 4.4kg/mm, rear 2.5-4.4kg/mm

I've think heard of up to 28mm rear sway bars on EK's in the US, so 22mm isn't extreme by those standards.

A stiffer sway bar will, much like a stiffer spring, benefit from a stiffer shock to absorb it's stronger rebound, although it's not necessary to stiffen the springs & shocks at the same time as fitting the bar, it does give the total package.

A stiffer rear sway bar will reduce body roll and give the front inside tyre better contact with the road.

[bennjamin]

I've think heard of up to 28mm rear sway bars on EK's in the US, so 22mm isn't extreme by those standards.


Mind you , ASR offers up to 32mm swaybars for EK/EG/DC. This is a HALLOW swaybar tho and depending on wall thickness , might be comparable to only slightly bigger than a 22 or 23mm swaybar.
IMO a upgraded rear swaybar is a must in a FWD car.
Opinions are different , as i have had many a talk with FWD and RWD owners that race their cars and some prefer stiff springs and no or smaller bars to let the suspension work with the tyres etc.

[tune2look]

So, whats the difference between solid and hollow bar?
(yes I know one is hollow and one is solid... and hollow gotta be larger to have similar strengh to solid)

[yourfather]

dude, this would have to be one of the best question threads and best attitudes I have seen on here for quite some time.

[tune2look]

dude, this would have to be one of the best question threads and best attitudes I have seen on here for quite some time.

Thanks,
Although my question was long, explainative, but not clear....


So, is it possible to find out how different swaybars will affect?
Is there anyway to measure it under cornering load?
(May be I should put my 14mm one on, then back to 22mm on,
so I can measure the difference how ever...)

I was thinking of sticking soft form on bottom of the bumperbar and take corner(same condition bwtween tests) to see how much has been scraped off. then measure the ratio between 14mm and 22mm so, I can estimate other diametered swaybars.)

This is to find out my lowest rate for my feature springs so that I can have minimal rolls combined with 'as soft as possible spring-rates' to have some ride-quality.

One thing thats came in my mind is that some swaybars look different.
Already both 22mm ITR and CTR is completely different looking.(endlink-wise, itr looks more stronger since swaybar end has much bigger 'bush'like bolt)

How do they differ?

Lastly, Can I fit some other adjustble endlink for my BEAKS and CTR setup?

Thanks guys!

[tune2look]

A stiffer sway bar will, much like a stiffer spring, benefit from a stiffer shock to absorb it's stronger rebound, although it's not necessary to stiffen the springs & shocks at the same time as fitting the bar, it does give the total package.

A stiffer rear sway bar will reduce body roll and give the front inside tyre better contact with the road.

I read over and over again and I find more questions... :o :o

I actually set my mind up to get AGX shocks, as it is both bound and rebound is adjustble compare to konis with bound adjustble only.

But reading your post, as my swaybar will have constant siffness, mybe koni is way to go?

And also, if you use progressive springs, will it cause more rolls?

I can imagine the stiff swaybar holding the hard part of the spring, and leaving the soft part of the spring taking all the stress. (especially because the soft part(bigger gaped) is facing up!)

Man... this mod-bug never ends....
Or... is there no end?

[bennjamin]

a swaybar does not have a constant "stiffness"
It is a spring , and will get stiffer to a degree the further it pivots.
Hence it being called a anti-roll bar.

[tune2look]

Oh.... just like leaf springs right?
hmm... then it is more ovious that what I want can be calculated?

[bennjamin]

...like any progressive spring yes :) The more compression the more resistance.