High SQ install

[smoknhothonda]

http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums/style_images/1/spacer.gif
I am installing a new system in my car.

I have thought about a number of system options for my car this is what I have in mind so far:

H/U: TBA (might be purchasing a Eclipse AVN 6000)

Front stage: MB Quart QSD-216 Rated @ 90-170 RMS

Rears: Just stay with MB's and buy the MB RCE-269 (the car has 6 x 9 standard) rated @ 80-150 RMS

Sub: 1 x JL Audio 12W7 Rated @ 500-1200 RMS

Amps: Alpine PDX4.150 to power the speakers Rated @ 150 WRMS x 4 @ 4 Ohms
Alpine PDX1.1000 to power sub Rated @ 1000 x 1 @ 4 Ohms

My Question is do these amps have a good reputation? I am an love with the design, they look very sleek, have a very small chassis, they are efficient plus they can be stacked on top of each other.

I can get the Amps for a very good price, just over $1k (they retail at close to $2k together)

What size power cable would be best for these amps? I was going to purchase a stinger 4 AWG amp wiring kit, but Im thinking with 1600WRMS in total from the 2 amps I might require 0 Gauge cable???

My other question is, the MB Quarts RCE-269 6x9's come with a crossover and tweeters. Would this be suitable for my rear fill in my car?!?! I am only a newby to high end car audio, but all 6 x 9's I have had in the past didnt include a seperate tweeter or crossovers!?!? http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

Any advice or feedback would be great cheers!

Shane

[funkdr]

You'll find the alpine amps have a very high THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) compared to other amps in the same price range and you dont want that in an SQ set up


For example:

PDX-4150 has 1% THD]


Where as

The Audison LRx 4.3 has 0.009% THD



Both are around the same price mark.

Wikipedia link to THD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_harmonic_distortion)

[Vinnie]

thd is only one factor. it doesent automatically make the pdx's a poor choice. the 4.150 in particular has already got quite a good reputation and is being used sucessfully in sq applications. the 1.1000 is also a very good amp and at the prices you have mentioned i would definately be taking it :) the lrx series audison's are also excellent amps and if you were paying retail for the alpine's i might suggest u reconsider ur options but since ur not...

secondly, for a dedicated sq setup i would be leaving the rears as stock and just using them for rear fill and running them off the h/u. u can then bridge the 4.150 which will provide plenty of power for the front stage :)

[funkdr]

If you are looking for a SQ then whats the point of bringing the system down straight away but thats just how i feel


But i totally agree with you on rears stock will be fine which means you could just run a 2 channel amp for fronts saving you some cash. Marty (FHRX) has a small write up on the reasons for not needing to upgrade rears here. (http://www.fastfoursforumscarclub.com/temp/fhrxstudios/faq.asp#28)

And that money you save on the amp and not buyign rears you could prob sound deaden your front doors great mid bass improvement from it

[ICACHA]

You'll find the alpine amps have a very high THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) compared to other amps in the same price range and you dont want that in an SQ set up

Have you heard the PDX amplifiers or are you just woffling on about what others seem to preach? If you're going to make a statement make sure you can back it up with facts "other" than THD.
e.g. I have done back to back tests in my car and I heard a difference in these amplifiers and this is what the differences were...

See what I mean?

Sorry to sound mean, but make sure you compare apples with apples not just price points. Stack the two amps side by side and do a listening test "then" you have something to comment on other than THD and what others tend to preach :)

On the note of amps, lets say Sinfoni (yes I have a vested interest in the product) they don't give you any specs but have been reviewed by Australian Test Labs who (in my personal opinion) know what they are talking about, a little snippet of the review
The Sinfoni sounded sweet and pure across all power levels... indeed I'd go so far to say the Amplitude 150.2x is the cleanest-sounding power amplifier I have ever heard... ever.

Seems to me like many of you are hung up on specs, how many of you actually know what these specs mean and how they are applied? Let me see a show of hands please :wave:

[Vinnie]

If you are looking for a SQ then whats the point of bringing the system down straight away but thats just how i feel


But i totally agree with you on rears stock will be fine which means you could just run a 2 channel amp for fronts saving you some cash. Marty (FHRX) has a small write up on the reasons for not needing to upgrade rears here. (http://www.fastfoursforumscarclub.com/temp/fhrxstudios/faq.asp#28)

And that money you save on the amp and not buyign rears you could prob sound deaden your front doors great mid bass improvement from it

i think the comment that the pdx's will immediately bring the system down is a bit unfair. i am currently using a pdx to power my focal splits in a sq application and i can vouch for its quality.

and yes sound deadening would be essential, dynamat all the way :)

[smoknhothonda]

Thanks for all the informative reply's guys much appreciated!

I must admit I hadn't considered THD when looking at the specs. When matching up the PDX1000.1 against a JL 1000/1 amp I did notice that the THD specs were better on the JL compared to the PDX.

The car I have the system in mind for (Lexus IS300) wont be entering any SQ comps, I guess I should have originally stated, I am predominantly after a system that sounds clean and crystal clear, with lots of creamy smooth bass.

Im definitely not after something that makes your ears bleed with huge SPL and makes little kids run inside their houses crying whilst driving past.

[ICACHA]

smoknhothonda, there are a lot of brands out there. make sure you get something that will do the job right for you, plus THD in a sub amp wont matter much as you will have that in the boot and wont be able to hear it distort anyway, not 0.00000001% anyway as funkdr claims :p

theres a limit to how far you can go before specs become non-evident while the car is going and that what the car is meant for in reality, not to stand still to listen to an audio system, thats why we have whats called home HIFI :)

[RMA]

Have you heard the PDX amplifiers or are you just woffling on about what others seem to preach? If you're going to make a statement make sure you can back it up with facts "other" than THD.

See what I mean?

Sorry to sound mean, but make sure you compare apples with apples not just price points. Stack the two amps side by side and do a listening test "then" you have something to comment on other than THD and what others tend to preach :)

On the note of amps, lets say Sinfoni (yes I have a vested interest in the product) they don't give you any specs but have been reviewed by Australian Test Labs who (in my personal opinion) know what they are talking about, a little snippet of the review

Seems to me like many of you are hung up on specs, how many of you actually know what these specs mean and how they are applied? Let me see a show of hands please :wave:


ICACHA would not be slightly influenced by the fact he works with an ex Alpine bigshot who just happens to sell (push) Alpine?

If your after a true SQ am the Audison would be hard to beat (not impossible, but hard). The specs of the Audison can run rings around the Alpine although I will freely admit if you can purchase an Alpine at a reasonable price (certainly not the RRP) they can represent reasonable value for money and can produce a sound quality that many will be more than happy with.
I am not setting out to bag the Alpine product, to put it simply if we were talking fuel it would be like 98 RON vs 100 RON in some cases you would notice the difference in others you would not - does this person need 98 or 100 RON fuel for his stereo?


But on the matter of spec's I often hear from people that specs are all being read incorrectly and that they really mean bugger all, but then the people who make this claim are generally trying to convince people that their product is as good as another which just happens to have much higher spec's.
If the THD and all the other specs means so little why do they publish this information in the first place? Answer because when read in conjunction with the total specification sheet the INFORMED person can make an INFORMED decission as to which should sound / perform better.

Footnote:
RMA is R.M. Audio who are the Australian distributor for Audison.

[funkdr]

Thats a great way to put it RMA

[ICACHA]

I was wondering how long it would take for you to get on here and say something Phil :) 8 views yesterday, over 100 today so it obviously didn't take long for someone to email you for you to sign up and have a say.

If you think I was bagging Audision, I wasn't, but what shits me the most is people who recommend one brand (regardless which) over the other due to specs and with minimal or no experience in the products. Saying that I doubt this person (funkdr) has ever heard the 2 amps doing the same job in the same car powering the same sub. I for one haven't heard the new Audison amps, but as you can see I didn't discount Audison in my post.

And in respect to fuel, you think that people can actually notice the improvement in performance from just 2 points in octane? I seriously doubt it? :confused:

[ICACHA]

Thats a great way to put it RMA

And which way would you put it? hahahaha

[RMA]

.

And in respect to fuel, you think that people can actually notice the improvement in performance from just 2 points in octane? I seriously doubt it? :confused:

Well even my Jetta FSI Turbo can tell the difference as I am absolutely sure a Ferrari or say V8 Supercar can, I guess the point is that if your running around in a KIA you more than likely wont tell the difference.

I guess if your using a crud head unit then no matter which amp you use it will only make the crud louder not better.

Is it not the duty of the industry to guide people, give them understanding and raise the general standards ?

[Vinnie]

*sigh* the caa suppliers have arrived... yes it is the duty of the industry to inform people but those who sell a certain product clearly have a vested interest in pushing it.

back on topic, if i had not yet bought any of the components, before i did i would visit a couple of high end audio shops and get their opinions on what would be best for you. they wont be completely unbiased either but they should provide you with some more insight. :)

[PMG]

To Phil/RMA: I don't normally post on forums but it seems I was personally alluded to by you in a previous post here. I don't believe you know me or what I stand for, so please allow me a brief response:

First, from what I have seen on various local forums it seems that some of the more prolific posters are not actually offering some mystical knowledge on the pretext of 'helping the car audio industry to grow' but are in reality pushing their own brand or business barrows. And watch out if you don't agree or follow their rules.

I'm loathe to hark back to the mobile electronics industry's distant past, but fact is we not only respected other brands but also each other. That's what helped the local industry to grow in the nineties.

My technical/applications role with Alpine for many years was actually quite different to what some may think... part of our global responsibility was to challenge the engineering people with the performance of brands and products we felt were threats at the time.

During many, rigorous test and measurement sessions in Japan, we learned to respect the SQ skills of quite a few other companies. Most had best remain nameless, but I can tell you that Audison was on the list. With Alpine's tech resources it would be a mistake to assume that they couldn't or didn't better that level of performance in a heartbeat though... be careful.

To suggest that I am still pushing Alpine against all-comers is plainly absurd. Even during the IASCA days when I was working for them, no-one could ever have accused me of bias... in fact I got chewed out for being overly open to all brands, just as long as the install itself sounded good.

You have obviously never visited us either. Sure we stock Alpine because it represents good value, but we also stock and sell other premium brands. The new demo-room's not finished yet, but its A-B capability is already revealing - we just don't believe that SQ is in the brand but rather that it's in the listening. Come by Carlton (Sydney) sometime and hear for yourself.

Kind regards, PMG

[beayni85]

buy focal lol, nah best amps ive used are the japanese company u-dimension. focal use them in their show cars, i used it in my sq lancer. I touched alpine once, will never touch it again. Do you know how cheaply built there stuff is? the only stuff that isnt marked up a trillion percent is their f-1 series stuff. If your in melbourne i mite be able to hook you up with a lil bit above cost focal gear. mind you cost is still expensive, because being a well built company their parts are expensive and to still be able to compete in the market they lower there margins

[RMA]

Paul, all I was trying to point out was that specs on paper are there to help guide people in what a product does and is capable of, they should not be disregarded as some people seem to profess.
And no I don't subscribe to the theory a brand name equates instantly to the quality of a product.

May be the way I said things was a little bit of a cheap shot, for which I am sorry but seriously you make remarks like :

With Alpine's tech resources it would be a mistake to assume that they couldn't or didn't better that level of performance in a heartbeat though... be careful.

Well specs on the current range suggest that the heart has stopped.

Apline are not the center of all knowledge that is car audio and just because they are a big big company does not mean that they have some sort of super knowledge that gives them the edge over everyone else.

If size and dollars behind a company made the difference by your logic Pioneer makes a better turntable that Lynn, LG & Hyundai would be joint world leaders in just about everything and Altec Lansing would still be around - Me thinkest not !

But, hey feel free to believe what you like - its a free world.

[JaCe]

I feel slow for not knowing Altec Lansing isn't around anymore...

I really like their computer speakers- came with my Dell and was most impressed with them (c'mon, for Dell.. stock.. speakers!)

[PMG]

Hi again Phil (wow, two posts from me on a subject must be a record),

You keep assuming that I still defend Alpine as the ultimate in car audio - even after I took the trouble to explain my previous role there, my relative objectivity and even paid homage to the brand you market in Oz - Audison.

Over too many years in this industry I have listened to (sometimes under quite controlled conditions), used and installed many brands and products - initially for homes, studios and clubs/concerts but mostly for cars over the last 25 or so. We even got to compare some car stuff directly with extreme quality recording studio gear while making reference CDs and training videos.

I've also had the pleasure of visiting product manufacturing plants on several continents (not just Alpine, and admittedly not Elettromedia) and have spent time with some of the more acknowledged design/engineering gurus in the global audio and car sound business - again not just at Alpine.

While I respect your stance, it is simply a mistake to assume that larger companies (like Alpine who I knew well, but also several others whose people I've met and products I've heard) are not capable of performance and specs well beyond what may appear in their normal consumer range catalogues.

Unless you have seen some of their R&D resources, heard their prototypes and know some of their people, it is hard to imagine what they can achieve when market reality is not involved. But the cold hard facts are that most buyers, certainly in this country, are reluctant to pay for sonic performance and specs the average ear cannot hear, or quality they cannot see/touch.

My comment about Alpine (your italics) was simply to point this out... again, it is a mistake to assume that because sales/marketing may dictate what a product's packaging, performance and price must be to provide a realistic return in investment, that a brand's capability doesn't exist for a lot more.

A company's size has little to do with it's actual tech expertise - there are engineers at Alpine and I know at other larger companies doing stuff that would fry the average person's brain (like mine). Sadly, little of it sees the light of day, because they still have to keep the robots whirring and the payroll covered churning out gear that the vast majority of buyers want.

Which fortunately for you, me and others who still give a damn about extreme audio performance, leaves a door open for those small, lovingly hand-made brands from around the world too - some of which we use and install on a pretty regular basis here nowadays (yes, even over and above Alpine).

Altec Lansing huh? I ended up with a Voice of the Theatre system once, but don't recall any favourable impressions, although it was long ago. And by the way it's Linn - don't tell me you're a vinyl fan too? Kind regards, PMG

[RMA]

I feel slow for not knowing Altec Lansing isn't around anymore...

I really like their computer speakers- came with my Dell and was most impressed with them (c'mon, for Dell.. stock.. speakers!)

The car and home audio divisions were bought out by E.V. and then instantaniously closed down, we were sorry to see it go as we were very sucessful with it, the computer speakers are a licenced product not re A.L.

[RMA]

I hear where your coming from and agree in principal, perhaps one day you will be lucky enought to visit Elettromedia and see what they can and are doing.
Its certainly a far cry from the small opperation they ran in the mid 90's.
A certain Italian amp that you sell has had quite a lot of input from the head engineer and director of Elettromedia in its design as the two company directors are very close friends.

Yes my mistake on the spelling (but im one of those people who are rs at spelling for a whole different bunch of reasons), hey i'm ex Alberts in the 70's ex Harman International in the 80's and it goes on, and I dont give a rats what they say vinyl still sounds sweet with a good TT and MC three inch nail.
Ive heard KTel records on a great TT sound better than a Shefield on an average player.

BTW :p by George some new runners, this thread will have worn his little feet and shoes out by now.

Perhaps a beer next time Im in town?

Oh and Vinnie I never came in to start selling or pushing anything.

[ICACHA]

You seem to think I need new runners, maybe you should buy me some. I'm size 9 1/2 and yeah a beer sounds good, you buying? :p

[RMA]

The offer was for Paul, sorry.

[ICACHA]

at least you remember i dont drink, but how about the shoes you seem to think i need? maybe you should go into the shoe business also :p

[PMG]

Now, now kiddies.... play nice.