View Full Version : D16y4 & D16y8 manifold Q (Edit: also turbo selection Q)
Hey there guys, ive done a ton of searching and cant find a definate answer (a few "i think" answers though).
Im getting a d16y8 head soon to do a mini me before i go turbo, mainly due to the large restrictions of the y4 head which wont let me reach my goals of 200-230fwhp on a healthy y4 block.
Just wondering if the y8 intake manifold (best of the d series) is better than the y4 manifold, ive heard in a few places that it seems to be the same, can anyone confirm this?
Also i believe the throttle body is the same size between the two at 52mm, can anyone confirm? The y8 TB isnt any bigger correct?
Cheers fellahs:thumbsup:
EDIT: While im at it, i may aswell post my parts list and cost estimations, in the hope for your advice and opinions so here it is.
D16y8 mini me
• Head
• Distributor w/spark plug cables
• Vtec solenoid $250-$300 all up
• New D16y8 head gasket $70??
• P28 Ecu $150??
• Custom Conversion harness $250ish
Fuel system
• 255lph Walbro fuel pump $200
• 550cc Precision Injectors $500
• AEM FPR $300
Turbo system
• BOV $100
• Intercooler $210
• Cast eBay manifold $260
• Garrett Gt28r $1250 Still very undecided
• Oil lines & Oil restrictor + fittings $260
• 3” Turbo back exhaust $750
• Intercooler & intake piping $200
• Bolts hoses and gaskets Etc $300
Engine support
• Cam gear $160
• Catch Can $70
• 3a racing filter $40
• Mishimoto radiator $340
• Gaskets and bolts/other $200
Electronics
• Spark plugs $80
• Defi din Gauges from perfect run $550
• AVC-R boost controller $600
• S100 Hondata $285
• 3 bar map sensor
• Tuning $880
Any recomendations for turbo choices? I want somthing brand new, good brand name quality, fast spooling, capable of supporting around 350hp (building block in distant future), and internally wastegated.
The gt28r (also knowen as the GT25/30) seems to fit this mould well, its ball bearing so should spoor really well.
Are there any other simular sized good quality turbos that are cheaper that come to mind?
Id like to spend around $800-1000, but willing to go upto $1250 which is the cost of the gt28r.
Quick spooling is the most important factor to me.
mate looks like u have the basic idea on parts. i am not 100% sure what is different about the IM
one thing.... remember i still have an intercooler for u if u want it! I also have an oil catch cam i am not using. u no the condition of the cooler, the catch cam is perfect.
mate looks like u have the basic idea on parts. i am not 100% sure what is different about the IM
one thing.... remember i still have an intercooler for u if u want it! I also have an oil catch cam i am not using. u no the condition of the cooler, the catch cam is perfect.
From looking at my d16y4 mani and pics of the y8 mani, it looks like there the same:thumbsup:
What are you upto on monday/tues pm me, id love to come grab the cooler and catchcan.:thumbsup: I completly forgot about it, with my goldfish like memory:p
Ok another question.
Quite a few people have told me that running an obd1 ecu, on my d16y4 harness (99 civic btw) isnt as simple as just getting an obd2-1 conversion harness.
Aparently the obd2b have a 2 plug system, which requires a custom conversion harness made up.
I was wondering if any of these harness adaptors would work - http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/price/Honda/Civic/performance/Electronics/OBD_Harnesses
Theres one there that is for a civic, converting obd2b to obd1 (2nd from the bottom).
Wouldnt that work??????
creativepunka
15-06-2007, 05:54 PM
you could get 200whp out of a y4 head. you have too much money to waste imo./
turtleEK1
15-06-2007, 07:10 PM
y4 and y8 intake manifolds are the same... same part number and everything... its only an upgrade for other d-series motors like d15b's and y1's etc....
throttle bodies are the same size... but as aza has had with problems in the past... they aren't interchangable...
about the ecu... best to talk to dynodave about the converting the y4 to odb1... involves re-wiring the injectors and the dizzy...
you have too much money to waste imo./
Thanks for your observation, didnt really help any. But nar not really IMO, i just want good parts thatll give me a good 10-15 years of service before replacment. Of course i could run a turbo setup for cheaper.
I know theres parts on my list that arnt 100% necissary to run the car, but i want the car to run really really well and be reliable for a long long time(for example I could run without, cam gears, FPR, aftermarket radiator, breathable PCV system, bov, AVC-R etc).
you could get 200whp out of a y4 head.
Can you? ive done a ton of research on this exact issue and ive found plently of experiances where people found it impossible/extreamly hard to get over 190whp on the stock y4/y7 head. Adding to that ive never seen anyone running more that that using a stock y4/y7 head.
If you can show me info/examples showing otherwise id really love to see it. I searched for that info for ages.
The thing is, as i mentioned im starting with 200-230whp, once im ready ill be building the block, doing some headwork and tuning for around 350whp, so ill need to swap heads sooner or later, doing it later isnt going to save me money!
Id rather spend the money now and have good head flow during the few years that ill be tuned for 200 or so hp, before building the block, especially when it wont cost any more in the long run:thumbsup:.
For the above setup, parts add upto $7000 including tuning, i dont think thats much at all for an awsome performing system. I plan on instaling it all myself...
y4 and y8 intake manifolds are the same... same part number and everything... its only an upgrade for other d-series motors like d15b's and y1's etc....
throttle bodies are the same size... but as aza has had with problems in the past... they aren't interchangable...
about the ecu... best to talk to dynodave about the converting the y4 to odb1... involves re-wiring the injectors and the dizzy...
Awsome man, cheers for clearing that up for me:thumbsup:
bennjamin
15-06-2007, 08:32 PM
IMO grab a B16 or similar throttle body and chuck that on - for less resistance when forcing that induction in ;)
Sexc86
15-06-2007, 10:16 PM
nice mate good luck with your setup... deffinately go the Gt28RS (disco patatoe).. should post up some piccies when she gets off the ground
hey muzz you should also add in arp head studs on your list, just remember to get the D16Y set.
also you could get alot of those items cheaper if you look around, for example i got 550cc injectors brand new RC's for roughly 410 shipped from the states, when it is usually sold around 560~+ in Australia.
hey muzz you should also add in arp head studs on your list, just remember to get the D16Y set.
also you could get alot of those items cheaper if you look around, for example i got 550cc injectors brand new RC's for roughly 410 shipped from the states, when it is usually sold around 560~+ in Australia.
Yeah ill definatly be upgrading my headstuds:thumbsup:
Im ordering a ton of gear from horsepowerfreaks.com in the usa, its like the walmart of aftermarket parts. The savings are huge compared to buying it all in australia, especially considering you often pay multipul shipping costs because you have to get bits and pieces from different places as theres no real big mega stores here.
The above prices are really just very conservative rough estimates, ill be doing tons of shopping around for the best prices:thumbsup:
This is an order im placing soon with horsepowerfreaks.com Prices are US dollars.
• Autometer Full sweep Fuel level gauge $70
• Autometer Full sweep Oil pressure gauge $73
• Autometer Full sweep Oil temperature gauge $128
• Autometer Full sweep Water temperature gauge $101
• Precision Injectors $284
• Walbro 255lph Fuel pump $108
• AEM Fuel pressure regulator $171
• GM 3bar Map sensor $147
• NGK Spark plugs $36
• Cam gear $106
• Conversion harness (if applicable) $104
• Heat wrap $34
• Goodridge Stainless brake lines $102
• Hawk Brake pads $116
• Engine damper $60
• ARP head studs $101
$1741 US $275 US Shipping
$2123 AU $335 AU Shipping $212 import tax Total $2670AU
Works out a ton cheaper to buy from the usa hey:thumbsup:
Especially when you get a shitload of stuff together to cut down on shipping;)
Ok guys i got a super duper dumbass question, but i just wanna make certain before i spend cash i cant afford too.
Is a p28 ecu, simply a p28 ecu?
Im getting one on ebay, but its from america. Is there any differances between the american p28, and our australian p28 or are they the same thing.
:o
SLOWEGG
25-06-2007, 08:43 PM
Same thing.
Also with your setup, is basically a stock motor yes? You will not need the 3bar map sensor and FPR. Leave them stock and you save abit of cash.
Also since your ordering from the states, you can get all the lines you need from here (http://www.stealthmodeperformance.com/) for just abit over $100.
With your turbo choice, the GT28R will be good for you. Nerv is running the same turbo on his D-series turbo, very responsive.
Cheers for the link man, they seem like great prices:thumbsup:
Yeah i wont need the 3 bar map senson for my origional setup, but i will need it later in the future when i get used to the power, build a block and turn up the boost, so was thinking i may aswell include it in my order from HPF to save on individual shipping from the US.
I may pass on it for now though as your saying, cus im sure itll be at the very least a year or two after i get it all setup, before i have a block built for higher boost, even if it will end up costing more in the longrun.
SLOWEGG
25-06-2007, 09:06 PM
Later on when you build ur block you might have to replace alot of things depending on your power goals. So just think through what you want to do as doing a turbo setup costs alot of money.
Later on when you build ur block you might have to replace alot of things depending on your power goals. So just think through what you want to do as doing a turbo setup costs alot of money.
Yeah believe me, im thinking through what im doing, dont worry about that:thumbsup: itll be a long time (4-5 months) before i start buying stuff, im doing the planning right now and ive got lots of planning to go.
This is my latest list with average prices:
• BOV $70
• Intercooler $50
• Cast eBay manifold $260
• Good turbo for around 350hp $500
• 3” Turbo back exhaust $750
• Intercooler piping $200
• Bolts hoses and gaskets Etc $300
• Oil lines restrictors fittings $200
• 3a racing filter $40
• Precision Injectors $284 US
• Walbro 255lph Fuel pump $108 US
• AEM Fuel pressure regulator $171 US
• NGK Spark plugs $36 US
• Cam gear $106 US
• ARP head studs $101 US
• Mishimoto radiator $340
• P28 ecu $120
• OBD Adaptor harness $250
• S100 Hondata $285
• Tune $800
Please feel free to let me know of any stuff that'll need to be changed on my list after i build the block and retune it for a higher power level (From 190-230whp on the stock block, to 300-350whp once built).
Basically im building (well planning;)) a system for 350whp, but running low boost until i can afford to build the block and turn the boost up, hence the GM map sensor.:thumbsup:
I dont really see very much thatll need changing setup wise, apart from building the block and re-tuning of course, thats why im here to learn though:thumbsup:.
Cheers bud, all help is much appreciated!
SLOWEGG
25-06-2007, 10:00 PM
If you have the $, invest in a ramhorn manifold.. And pick a nice size turbo :)
Not an expert, by any means. I have very little experience, but like you have been researching this as well.
I thought I might have some input to share...
> Ive done a ton of research ...... where people found it impossible/extreamly
> hard to get over 190whp on the stock y4/y7 head.
Not sure about y4, but when referring to y7, remember the USDM y7 motor has a very, very restrictive intake. Kind of like carby manifolds on old torana 202's.
AUDM D16y4's intake is the same as D16y8 which is only a few percent off an Edelbrock.
> starting with 200-230whp, once im ready ill be building the block, doing
> some headwork and tuning for around 350whp
200-230 Hp? No problem, 50 or 60 trim T3 turbo. RB25 turbos are about this size. early versions had ceramic turbine. Later versions had fibreglass impeller and ceramic turbine. Suffer catastrophic failure if spun beyond about 12psi boost, but will achieve your initial 230Hp goals.
I think a T28 either S15 or GTiR (with 0.84 A/r turbo) will fit nice for 230Hp. Nicely sized to minimize lag yet stiil achieve boost til redline.
350 Hp? Won't get that without a 57trim T04E turbo (T3 turbine/T4 compressor hybrid), very laggy, 1500-2000 rpm power band. nothing at 4500rpm, all hell breaks loose at 5500rpm and motor redline cuts in at 7000rpm. Pure drag steup IMHO.
Your choice of a GT28r kind of sits in between these two choices. I've seen references to 270Hp being achievable on a d16. (IMHO) 350Hp definitely not possible on a GT28r.
If you're really keen on big Hp, look into Hondata (S300) or Crome. Full throttle launch will help with lag issues.
• AVC-R boost controller $600
Not needed with Honda S300, is an optional feature.
• S100 Hondata $285
Go Crome or Hondata S300, as mentioned earlier.
• AEM FPR $300
Definitely not need if running ECU and getting tuned.
• Oil lines restrictors fittings $200
I noticed a lot of people using 3AN lines on turbo setups. Narrow oil lines restrict oil pressure and mean you wont need oil restrictor.
> i wont need the 3 bar map senson for my origional setup, but i will
> need it later in the future when i get used to the power,
OEM Honda sensor cannot read any boost, so you will need a MAP sensor.
I'd pitch in and say avoid the big ticket GT28r ($$$) turbo.
Get a big bearing D16Y8 gearbox (lower ratios, and 40mm axle bearings) and a quaife LSD. best bang for bucks.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Nick.
HEy,
almost forgot.
If you've got a budget of $7000 for your build, consider contacting people like JDMyard and Dr Honda (among others). I think you'll be very happy with a K24 install and enjoy a reliable Honda experience with power levels similar to what you're trying to achieve with a turbo.
Nick.
muhhan
27-06-2007, 10:01 PM
Probably not a great deal of help to your questions, but good on you, Muzz, for being so dedicated to the D!
Please keep us posted. I am very interested in your build! :thumbsup:
creativepunka
27-06-2007, 10:14 PM
RB25 turbos are about this size. early versions had ceramic turbine. Later versions had fibreglass impeller and ceramic turbine.
If you're really keen on big Hp, look into Hondata (S300) or Crome. Full throttle launch will help with lag issues.
OEM Honda sensor cannot read any boost, so you will need a MAP sensor.
Get a big bearing D16Y8 gearbox (lower ratios, and 40mm axle bearings) and a quaife LSD. best bang for bucks.
Nick.
-No Turbo ever had a fiberglass impeller.
-You also have anti-lag with crome.
-They can read to about 9psi
-do you know if the axles are the same spline as y4,y1??
hondavti25
27-06-2007, 10:31 PM
how good are theses horepowerfreaks.com? look fairly well priced any one else checked it out... and its good to see another guy going for a D turbo
Cheers for all that man (nd55), ill take all the input i can get;)
OEM Honda sensor cannot read any boost, so you will need a MAP sensor.
Really?? Ive heard plenty of times that they can read upto 11psi of boost or somthing like that. Can anyone else confirm or deny this for me?
Not sure about y4, but when referring to y7, remember the USDM y7 motor has a very, very restrictive intake. Kind of like carby manifolds on old torana 202's.
Im pretty set on swapping to a y8 head before i start peicing together my kit, in parts im looking at $800 all up, which isnt much extra at all for the better flowing vtec head. Mainly itll provide me with a little kick in power for the 6 or so months ill be saving for turbo parts;).
I havnt reasearched this much, but im guessing the better flow will help the turbo spooling issue aswell
200-230 Hp? No problem, 50 or 60 trim T3 turbo. RB25 turbos are about this size. early versions had ceramic turbine. Later versions had fibreglass impeller and ceramic turbine. Suffer catastrophic failure if spun beyond about 12psi boost, but will achieve your initial 230Hp goals.
I think a T28 either S15 or GTiR (with 0.84 A/r turbo) will fit nice for 230Hp. Nicely sized to minimize lag yet stiil achieve boost til redline.
350 Hp? Won't get that without a 57trim T04E turbo (T3 turbine/T4 compressor hybrid), very laggy, 1500-2000 rpm power band. nothing at 4500rpm, all hell breaks loose at 5500rpm and motor redline cuts in at 7000rpm. Pure drag steup IMHO.
Your choice of a GT28r kind of sits in between these two choices. I've seen references to 270Hp being achievable on a d16. (IMHO) 350Hp definitely not possible on a GT28r.
Thank for the help there, turbo choice is the area where I need the most help. I was thinking about going with an s15 gt28 but still very undecided about the whole thing. Reguarding a gt28r not making 350whp, perlmeistere from turbod16.com is at 347whp.
perlmeistere8 -- 347whp 288wtq
Benson Sleeved D16Y8 9:0 Compression, GT28R .60a/r intake, .82 a/r exhaust, Precision 1000cc, 18psi on pump gas
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/965783_b5by8/Dynonumbers.jpg
Still, im very undecided about the whole thing. Latly ive been thinking maby it'd be a good idea to get a cheap 2nd hand turbo around the 220whp-250whp size to start with, just so i can get an idea of what 230whp or so actually feels like in a light car. and when i know what my power goals truly are, getting a really nice fast spooling, ball bearing turbo around the size that im after.
Id be happy with anything that reaches full boost around 4krpm, id like to be able to drive my car around and keep it out of boost to keep up the fuel economy, yet when im beating on it, have it keep in boost constantly (not dropping out of boost when upshifting) a short ratio y8 box is definatly on the cards after the setups all installed and tuned. My research so far has lead me to believe that i can get 300-330whp and still have a decent powerband with a y8 head, especially with the zex 95300 cam and some porting, which i may add to my setup when i build the block later on.
But who knows, after experiancing 230 whp, i may settle for 300whp or somthing, hence why ive been thinking maby starting with a cheap turbo rated around 250whp before settleing on a nice fast spooling bb turbo rated at my final goal, as my goal might change.
Get a big bearing D16Y8 gearbox (lower ratios, and 40mm axle bearings) and a quaife LSD. best bang for bucks.
Yeh definatly getting a short ratio y8 box and most likly an obx lsd, alot of yanks have been running the cheap obx with no issues. gonna wait till after the setups all installed and running well though before i start forking out on such items.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Cheers man, will do:thumbsup:
SLOWEGG
27-06-2007, 10:47 PM
• AVC-R boost controller $600
Not needed with Honda S300, is an optional feature.
• S100 Hondata $285
Go Crome or Hondata S300, as mentioned earlier.
> i wont need the 3 bar map senson for my origional setup, but i will
> need it later in the future when i get used to the power,
OEM Honda sensor cannot read any boost, so you will need a MAP sensor.
Nick.
With the S300, you will need to find a boost solenoid but it will be alot better choice as the hondata controls the unit and will cost about the same all up as if you got a S100 + AVCR but you get a USB port. As for the Honda MAP sensor, it can read up to about 11psi.
With the S300, you will need to find a boost solenoid but it will be alot better choice as the hondata controls the unit and will cost about the same all up as if you got a S100 + AVCR but you get a USB port. As for the Honda MAP sensor, it can read up to about 11psi.
Yeh ill certainly look into the option of the s300 over the s100 + avc-r.
Dont suppose anyone knows the cost for the s300 off the top of their head??
I am pretty keep on the avc-r's gear dependant boost control, but i can definatly live without it, and the s300 does have alot of really nice features:thumbsup:.
May aswell mention, im also considering the gizzmo IBC (made by apex'i) for boost control with s100 as it can be had on ebay for $340, which would be a cheap yet decent combo, however that option lacks the nice features of either the avcr+s100 or the s300.
Anyways, just some thoughts.
SLOWEGG
27-06-2007, 11:21 PM
S300 also has gear dependant boost control aswell i think? Have a look on hondatech.com.au for price, i think its about 800 for the S300.
Have you considered the greddy profec b 2? This is the boost controller dyno dave told me to get.
S300 also has gear dependant boost control aswell i think? Have a look on hondatech.com.au for price, i think its about 800 for the S300.
Have you considered the greddy profec b 2? This is the boost controller dyno dave told me to get.
Yeah cheers for that, its $800 and has gear dependant boost control:thumbsup:
S300 has just gone to my most favored option:thumbsup: Its only slightly more expensive than the s100+gizzmo ibc with a ton more features, and cheaper than the s100+avcr, still with much more features.
Whats peoples opinions on running an adjustable fpr?
Ive been told that its a good idea to have an adjustable fpr with a fuel return line when using a high flow pump like the walbro 255lph. Also that my choice of injectors will work best with a higher fuel pressure (better atomisation, which i believe which helps fuel economy).
I know its not neccissary, but is it a worthwile investment, or a waste of money?:confused:
from what ive been told by dave, you can run the standard fpr fine but will need to upgrade when you go over 15psi.
Cool cool, i might leave it for now and look into it when i upgrade my block for more boost:thumbsup:
SLOWEGG
28-06-2007, 12:28 PM
Yeh Muzz, just leave it stock for now. Just get a fuel pump and decent size injectors.
remember to upgrade your brakes as well. lol
defect
01-07-2007, 11:35 AM
i recommend a T3 from R33 skylines
abit laggy but feels awsome when full boost comes on.
> • Oil lines restrictors fittings $200
> I noticed a lot of people using 3AN lines on turbo setups. Narrow oil lines restrict
> oil pressure and mean you wont need oil restrictor.
I might retract that statement. a restrictor is cheap insurance. (I changed my mind, bite me).
RE: Map sensors
> -They can read to about 9psi
and
> Ive heard plenty of times that they can read upto 11psi of boost ...
I stand corrected. Will have to re-read the stuff about using a check valve on the OEM map sensor.
> Im pretty set on swapping to a y8 head ....
and
> I havnt reasearched this much, but im guessing the better flow will help the
> turbo spooling issue aswell
Not sure the vtec head will help with spool rpms. Vtec cross-over point is 4000rpm+. I think you'd want yoru turbo to have spooled by then.
Vtec might give you a wider torque curve at the top end, but you also achieve this using the S300 and upping the boost at the higher rpms.
No need to spend cash, when not necessary.
Mind you Vtec technology is appealling. looking at sourcing a vtec head myself (for the right price).
> perlmeistere8 -- 347whp 288wtq
> Benson Sleeved D16Y8 9:0 Compression, GT28R .60a/r intake, .82 a/r exhaust, > Precision 1000cc, 18psi on pump gas
Nice!!!! I'll take two for christmas. he, he.
> ive been thinking maby it'd be a good idea to get a cheap 2nd hand turbo
my aim too. There's enough cash being sunk as it is.
> Id be happy with anything that reaches full boost around 4krpm
Same.
I do remember an ongoing thread/argument on www.turbod16.com about how
Honda's are torque-less any way and in the real world people adapt to situations
and therefore a huge 57trim T04E isn't that bad.
The main protagonists seemed to be people running said turbo's so there might
be something to the myth.
Not sure I want to spend all my funds to find out though.
> with the zex 95300 cam
Zex 95300 is for D16Z6. Zex 1XXXX is for D16Y8 (I think).
You'll need Zex valve springs with cam.
Apparently Zex cam and loose YCP Vitara pistons make for a very diesel running sound.
> alot of yanks have been running the cheap obx with no issues
Mista Bone (on turbod16.com) says they OK if some prep goes into shimming the units. Might want to search on Bone, OBS and B16 oil ring which are commonly used as shims.
I say do the Y8 box and lsd first.
Peg legging (spinning one wheel) sucks and you don't need big Hp to suffer it.
Get some Energy Suspension motor mount inserts while you at it. cheap $$$.
> Dont suppose anyone knows the cost for the s300 off the top of their head??
Find a tuner who sells them and get ECU and tuning as a package and save $$$.
> S300 has just gone to my most favored option
Yes. Also, you can two step boost control to raise boost at higher revs.
No need for vtec head remember?
I'm looking at Crome cause I'm cheap.
> Whats peoples opinions on running an adjustable fpr?
Larry Widmer (aka. Endyn) has a web page illustrating a mod to the OEM D16
which lets it support 400Hp.
Involves drilling a hole in the return port so fuel pressure doesn't creep up at higher flow rates.
.... and as soon as I find it, again, I'll post it up.
> injectors will work best with a higher fuel pressure
> (better atomisation, which i believe which helps fuel economy).
I believe OEM d16 injectors have reliability issue at higher pressures.
> remember to upgrade your brakes as well.
Any cheap suggestions ?
I found a great write-up on Honda-tech.com called
"How to put X brakes on your 96-00 EK Civic"
but damned if I can find it agan.
I have attached a copyleft volation which has some great info.
> do you know if the axles are the same spline as y4,y1?
I'm a bit vague on this too. Further to the confusion, there is a mid-shaft and
equal length drive shaft setup for ZC d-series motors which I can't find any info on.
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