Strut bars Important?

[040501912]

Hi guys,

I have Accord 94 Vtis T-charged
im just wondering if strut bars are important for daily car?
i rarely goes to track though. 1once thats it LOL

I have front Cusco strut bars , and Thinking of getting Rear tower strut , and Lower tie..
when i put on the fronts, i dont tend to feel any differences.

I had Lowered Springs H&R sports and just a stock shockies.

Is it worth it? or just a waste of money?
your suggestion are most welcome :)

[ACTI0NMAN-1]

if you had any idea of what they do you wouldnt be here asking this question... and no, i'm not going to spoon feed you.

[Zilli]

ill help you out

What strut braces, and bracing in general does, is adds what is called torsional rigidity to your car. With no bracing, as you go through a corner, the forces of inertia will force your car to twist and bend, especially the top half of your car, as this part doesnt have the bracing and strength provided by your chassis.

So when you car is still, it will be like this I_I
when you are cornering it will be like this /_/

What this does is create unwanted pressure on the rest of your vehicles suspension system as it tries to compensate for the shift in weight caused by the twisting of the cars body. This can cause negative affects such as body roll, plough understeer, and the extra load on your tyres will cause increased wear. Basically your car is a blob of jello.

When you put braces on your car, it ties one side of your car to the other, and puts a strong braces between them, usually on your strut tower tops, at time between your pillars, or in the case of race cars, at multiple points throughout the body via a roll cage. What this does is creates a reduction in the amount of body roll and weight shift, which will help turn in and mid corner stability as your body is now more rigid.

Im sure there is much more detail on this site, and perhaps on the web in general, but i hope this helps

[040501912]

if you had any idea of what they do you wouldnt be here asking this question... and no, i'm not going to spoon feed you.

LOL.... ;)
coz i have a hesitation to get or to not.. thats why im asking opinions :)

[simonnowis]

if your a safe daily driver and dont take corners like crazy alot of the time, i dont think it is vitally required. rather spend the money on sound system or sumthing.

[Drew]

If you can't feel a difference with the front bar you won't feel any with the rear

[Zilli]

just another point for you, if you dont really put your car through it pacs, obviously on the track, you wont see a great deal of difference, but if you do like corners, you WILL see a difference. The thing is your car is oriented towards cruising, so without a number of appropriate braces it will still be quite a "loose" car

[040501912]

thanks :), yeah i was thinking that too.
its a family car :p not a racing car.. might invest on something else i guess

[bennjamin]

from my experience a front strut bar (a good one) will stiffen up the front , increasing steering response. This also will promote more understeer
A rear bar isnt noticeable but I run one with a aftermarket rear swaybar kit and its a case of better safe than sorry IMO.

In other words - NO strut bars arent important.

On older cars , strut bars seem to help out with keeping the rigidity up to OEM level . You will notice less creaks :)

[040501912]

is it true, if you have a swaybars you wouldnt need a strutbar?

[SiReal]

best improvements you could make, get some sports shocks - adjustables like konis.

koni + H&R sports for me = world of difference. added in RSB, even better. I've got a strut bar however it doesnt fit. I only got it for bling factor. nothing else.

edit: swaybars are completely diff from strut brace.

sways sit under the car and prevent roll. strut bars sit between the strut tops just to stiffen things up. some say they arent noticeable. some say they are.

one thing for sure is that swaybars are damn noticable.

edit x2: realised i didnt answer your question. sways + strut bars are mutually exclusive, meaning they dont need each other to work.

[aaronng]

is it true, if you have a swaybars you wouldnt need a strutbar?

False. Both are different type of bars and should not be confused to be the same. The strut bar is for keeping your chassis in the original shape when you corner hard. The sway bar is to keep your inner wheel down on the road by transferring rolling forces to your subframe.

[Muzz]

Good reading on strut braces here - http://e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_theory.htm

Infact quite a few good suspension articles here ;)- http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55663

[Muzz]

Save up a little more and get some shocks first, swaybars and sticky tyres. theyll make 1,000,000 x the differance in performance and handling compared to bracing rear suspension points. Theres no measurabe increase in speed/decrease in laptimes with a rear tie bar on our fwd cars, at most the car may feel slightly stiffer, somthing which 90% of people confuse with going faster, or increased cornering power.

I just ordered brand new koni sports for $680 from the US, thats stupid cheap, let me know if you wanna know where from. Swaybars/shocks/springs/tyres are your cars best friend!

Rear tie bar will do very very little at all to make you faster, you wont feel much more than a placebo effect. IMO adding the bars in the rear is pointless without 1st having sticky tyres, sport shocks, good springs, and swaybars, as you wont be reaching the high cornering forces where bracing becomes worthwhile.

I added an ASR subframe brace a while back, which i guess doubles as a tie bar, its the beefiest on the market. I wanst expecting to feel much difference if any, i wasnt surprised to not feel one slight difference that was strong enough to be any more than a placebo.

[qstoria]

if you had any idea of what they do you wouldnt be here asking this question... and no, i'm not going to spoon feed you.



congratulations actionman-1. that is the dumbest and rudest response I have seen in a while

if 040509212 new what they do then of course they wouldnt be asking the question in the first place would they? same goes for anyone asking any question. The reason you ask a question is to learn the answer..

think about that next time you dont know something and ask for help

[Muzz]

What this does is create unwanted pressure on the rest of your vehicles suspension system as it tries to compensate for the shift in weight caused by the twisting of the cars body. This can cause negative affects such as body roll, plough understeer, and the extra load on your tyres will cause increased wear. Basically your car is a blob of jello.

When you put braces on your car, it ties one side of your car to the other, and puts a strong braces between them, usually on your strut tower tops, at time between your pillars, or in the case of race cars, at multiple points throughout the body via a roll cage. What this does is creates a reduction in the amount of body roll and weight shift, which will help turn in and mid corner stability as your body is now more rigid.


Pretty much all of that is incorrect, bracing suspension mount points via braces wont effect bodyroll at all, wont effect weight transfer/shift either, wont put extra unwanted pressure in the suspension system, and wont effect loads on the tyres in a negative way. And im very interested to hear your reasoning why bracing is going to increase in corner stability and turn in.

Also there is no shift in weight caused by the twisting chassis, The centre of gravity dosnt move. Its the cars weight transfer, acting on the two different roll stiffness front and rear which causes the body to twist, one end wants to roll more than the other causing the twisting.

Increasing the torsional resistance of the chassis wont effect the amount of total weight transfer.

What bracing the car does is:
1. Braces the suspension mount points relative to each other. The sole benifit of this is to keep the alignment of the tyres from momentarily changing with large forces from cornering. With things flexing, the alignment angles are moving around, you want to reduce this flex (why race cars use solid spherical bearings in place of the flexy rubber, to keep the alignmnt from changing momentarily with the massive forces).

2. Increases the torsional ridgidity of the vechicle, which isnt really that benificial at all with our FWDs.
Increasing the torsional resistance, keeps the roll angles at the front of the car, and the rear of the car more equal. The benifits being it simplifyes the suspension tuning, it will very slightly reduce weight transfer at the end of the car with the softer roll resistance, but increase it by the same amount on the end with the stiffer roll resistance. It lowers the cars frequency of vibration or somthing which is way outa my depth to understand. It also makes eack corner of the car more independant from each other to a very slight degree.

[040501912]

geeh i think he is tired of answering Noob question.. well sometimes that understood able.

Well I didnt hold any grudges on him. Tough words though :p

[Zilli]

Pretty much all of that is incorrect, bracing suspension mount points via braces wont effect bodyroll at all, wont effect weight transfer/shift either, wont put extra unwanted pressure in the suspension system, and wont effect loads on the tyres in a negative way. And im very interested to hear your reasoning why bracing is going to increase in corner stability and turn in.

Also there is no shift in weight caused by the twisting chassis, The centre of gravity dosnt move. Its the cars weight transfer, acting on the two different roll stiffness front and rear which causes the body to twist, one end wants to roll more than the other causing the twisting.

Increasing the torsional resistance of the chassis wont effect the amount of total weight transfer.

What bracing the car does is:
1. Braces the suspension mount points relative to each other. The sole benifit of this is to keep the alignment of the tyres from momentarily changing with large forces from cornering. With things flexing, the alignment angles are moving around, you want to reduce this flex (why race cars use solid spherical bearings in place of the flexy rubber, to keep the alignmnt from changing momentarily with the massive forces).

2. Increases the torsional ridgidity of the vechicle, which isnt really that benificial at all with our FWDs.
Increasing the torsional resistance, keeps the roll angles at the front of the car, and the rear of the car more equal. The benifits being it simplifyes the suspension tuning, it will very slightly reduce weight transfer at the end of the car with the softer roll resistance, but increase it by the same amount on the end with the stiffer roll resistance. It lowers the cars frequency of vibration or somthing which is way outa my depth to understand. It also makes eack corner of the car more independant from each other to a very slight degree.

A very proficient answer, thanks... in my head, im saying pretty much what you have stated, but you have been able to word it in the correct way

Im just a little confused here
"wont effect bodyroll at all,wont effect weight transfer/shift either, won't put extra unwanted pressure in the suspension system, and wont effect loads on the tyres in a negative way" then you said - The sole benifit of this is to keep the alignment of the tyres from momentarily changing with large forces from cornering (if the tyres are not affected, what does a change in alignment do to a tyre?)... keeps the roll angles at the front of the car, and the rear of the car more equal (if the braces wont affect body roll at all why do you mentioned it here?)

In point 2 you start by saying that increases in torsional rigidity dont really benefit our FWD cars, then go into explaining why it does. If there is no benefit why do race cars have cages? surely its not just for safety?

"Increasing the torsional resistance of the chassis wont effect the amount of total weight transfer" - i understand this, there will be no basic reduction because the weight is still there, i think i meant the roll factor wont be as bad.

"And im very interested to hear your reasoning why bracing is going to increase in corner stability and turn in" - my semi educated view is if you try and turn a car in violently to a sharp turn, and it has NO bracing, the twisting notion you have expressed will take away from vehicles ability to change direction quickly, cleanly and sharply... am i incorrect? With reference to mid corner stability, once again im referring to the notion that the car body is experiencing the twist which you speak of, mid corner adjustments SURELY can be made easier and more precise if the top half of your car body is not like a jello cube and can follow what the bottom half wants to do... am i incorrect?



I may have got some things mixed up here with swaybars and strut bars, im not a pro, and dont profess to be really... but i like to learn so if you could clarify for me that'd be great... just for my information, do you race or have vast experience with this stuff?

I look forward to hearing back

[lil_miss_vtec]

I have a front and rear strut brace on my crx (also had them on my EK Vti-r) & think there is definatly a diffrence when cornering!!
I agree, stiff suspension (coil overs) and tyres etc will also make a diffrence when it comes to handling but front and rear strut braces are the go :D

[beeza]

congratulations actionman-1. that is the dumbest and rudest response I have seen in a while

if 040509212 new what they do then of course they wouldnt be asking the question in the first place would they? same goes for anyone asking any question. The reason you ask a question is to learn the answer..

think about that next time you dont know something and ask for help

x2
Responses like Actionman's make people afraid to ask questions :thumbdwn:

I put all 4 strut bars on my EK sedan when I first got it and it made a hell of a difference but say I take a corner quickly and accelerate through the corner the front wheels spin and slide out,that's understeer right? How do ya fix that apart from tyre pressure?

[SiReal]

beeza, some say to get bigger sways both front and rear - that should neutralise the understeer and potentially give u oversteer. on a heavier car like my accord, i get understeer...

[Silver-Arrowz]

Sways make the biggest difference on the road. Strut braces won't be noticed much. If your not going to track the car then don't bother with rear struts.

[Ph@t-G]

Hey beeza, there will always be some form of understeer and torque-steer as it's the nature of our cars being FF. I've heard that to increase the ratio from understeer to oversteer is to install a large sway at the rear or to only install sway at the rear. Not sure how valid that is though....

[SiReal]

agreed. sway bars made a world of difference. it was great.

it took me a while to regain confidence in driving with it. characteristics changed major!

[aaronng]

x2
Responses like Actionman's make people afraid to ask questions :thumbdwn:

I put all 4 strut bars on my EK sedan when I first got it and it made a hell of a difference but say I take a corner quickly and accelerate through the corner the front wheels spin and slide out,that's understeer right? How do ya fix that apart from tyre pressure?

Get better tyres.

[beeza]

Thanks for the responses guys :thumbsup:
I was going to put a rear 22mm Whiteline Sway bar on but Dave (Turtle1) did and said it did nothing for ride comfort...
I don't want my ride to be uncomfortable,got da girl in there...

When my tyres wear out I'm gonna sell my rims and get a new set of Rims and better tyres.

[aaronng]

Sway bars reduce roll. They don't reduce ride comfort nor make your suspension stiffer.

[beeza]

My car has been lowered,not the stiffest springs/struts,so I got a bit of roll.From what I've read it will make a hell of a difference over a strut bar. Would you only notice it being there in corners?

It's sounding like it's what I need to reduce understeer and increase oversteer.

[aaronng]

My car has been lowered,not the stiffest springs/struts,so I got a bit of roll.From what I've read it will make a hell of a difference over a strut bar. Would you only notice it being there in corners?

It's sounding like it's what I need to reduce understeer and increase oversteer.

It doesn't increase oversteer. It only reduces understeer. When you increase the stiffness of the rear sway bar too much, it becomes like torsion beam suspension where if one wheel jumps because of a bump on the road, the other wheel will do the same, losing rear grip. This is the "oversteer" that people talk about. But no, it doesn't make your car oversteer like an MR chassis car.

[beeza]

Thanks a lot aaronng :thumbsup:
I will talk to Dave and find out exactly how it affected his car since we both got the same cars.I know it will be different since his suspension set-up is different but it's the closest I can get...
It is sounding like a good investment to reduce that understeer.I mean it's no major problem but just say I do take a corner fast (I don't do it much but just say),I dont wanna go sliding nose first into the gutter.So it could save me that repair bill :thumbsup:

[aaronng]

Thanks a lot aaronng :thumbsup:
I will talk to Dave and find out exactly how it affected his car since we both got the same cars.I know it will be different since his suspension set-up is different but it's the closest I can get...
It is sounding like a good investment to reduce that understeer.I mean it's no major problem but just say I do take a corner fast (I don't do it much but just say),I dont wanna go sliding nose first into the gutter.So it could save me that repair bill :thumbsup:
Is your suspension still stock or are you running coils? The effect of a thicker rear swaybar is better when you have stiffer suspension. I found when going from 14mm to 19mm was that the rear felt more willing but would snap from sharp changes in direction if I pushed it really hard. Now with coils, the car is better behaved when pushing hard and is more predictable.

But if you were driving normally at the speed limit and slowing down for the corners, the comfort level would be the same as stock. Maybe even a little better as the car rolls less in sweeping corners.

[beeza]

I've got stock struts and New King springs...

[aaronng]

I've got stock struts and New King springs...
Is the spring rate the same as stock? If it is stiffer, stiffer dampers to complement them will be good.

[loco_corolla]

I have found on my corolla that installing a rear strut brace has slightly increased turn in whilst adding more rigidty to the rear, car feels much stable on daily driving and also feels safer entering corners. But that may just be an expectation created by the psyche, nevertheless i feel a difference.

Maybe honda's react differently i don't know but thats my personal experience, overall i'm happy i bought the damn thing. Plus i got it really cheap :D

[beeza]

Is the spring rate the same as stock? If it is stiffer, stiffer dampers to complement them will be good.

They are stiffer,Thanks aarronng :thumbsup:

[Muzz]

Hey bud, sorry for the slow reply.

[QUOTE=Zilli;1220916]

Im just a little confused here
"wont effect bodyroll at all,wont effect weight transfer/shift either, won't put extra unwanted pressure in the suspension system, and wont effect loads on the tyres in a negative way" then you said - The sole benifit of this is to keep the alignment of the tyres from momentarily changing with large forces from cornering (if the tyres are not affected, what does a change in alignment do to a tyre?)...

When a tyres alignment isn’t at its optimal position, it can’t achieve its optimal grip levels. When huge forces are seen in the suspension arms, well actually where they mount to the car these areas can flex slightly altering the alignment till the large forces are removed/reduced.

This is bad because the alignment will be changing according to the large forces, not just where the suspension is in its range of movement. For example, in hard breaking the front wheels tend to toe out, which would be bad. Stiffening the suspension mount points and using harder/spherical bushings will reduce this effect, and keep them pointing where you set them to be pointing.

The alignment of the wheels relative to the ground is very important, maintaining there correct alignment is very important you don’t want the angles of the wheels moving in ways there not designed to.

With a performance fwd, what we are ultimately trying to achieve, is to get as much grip as we can at the front wheels, then alter the camber of the rear wheels, so that at our peak cornering g’s (max body roll) the outside rear is vertical to the ground where it can make the most grip. This is one reason why there a tons of fwd race cars with a high rear roll rate – to maximise the grip at the front wheels. The rear grip is then regained by altering the rear camber angles for maximum cornering grip.

The above also ties into your question, why is torsional resistance to twist not as important in fwds. The answer being that:
1. It doesn’t help grip at the front wheels any; actually it’s often detrimental to it, and we want as much grip as we can at the front wheels for corner exit so we can accelerate harder, and earlier.
2. Rear grip is added by using rear camber angles for maximum tyre grip in corners, this dosnt take grip away from the front wheels.

……………………………………………………………….


“keeps the roll angles at the front of the car, and the rear of the car more equal” (if the braces wont affect body roll at all why do you mentioned it here?)

As you know during a corner, weight is transferred off the inside tyres, onto the outside tyres (why the outside suspension compresses and inside extends), the total amount of weight that is transferred from the inside to outside depends on 4 things.
1. The height of the centre of gravity above the ground.
2. The force acting on the centre of gravity (cornering g forces).
3. The track width of the wheels.
4. The total weight of the car.

Without changing any of these four things the amount of weight transfer from the inside to the outside will be unaffected. It’s the increase in load on the outside, and the decrease on the inside that causes the cars body to roll. The swaybars and springs determine how much roll those forces produce. (An extremely common misconception is that less body roll means means weight transfer, however the changes in loads on the tyres are the same, the stiffer roll resistance just means they cause less roll)

In a perfect world the cars body has one roll angle for a given cornering force, let’s say its 3 degrease. However this would only occur if the roll resistances of the suspension at the front and rear are equal (pretty unlikely), or the cars body was completely rigid and couldn’t twist torsionally (Not going to happen without lots of unpractical heavy bracing).


What actually happens is the end of the car with the higher roll resistance will twist less than the other end. Lets say the car has a higher roll resistance at the front, it may roll 2.5 degrease, the rear may roll 3.5 degrease, the body is twisting torsionally one degrease between the front of the rear. The total/average body roll is still 3 degrease though, due to the weight transfer.

Increasing the torsional resistance to twist, by adding some proper bracing, will reduce the twisting of the body. Now the front may roll 2.75 degrease, and the rear 3.25 degrease, the body is now twisting half a degree, but the total/average body roll will still be 3 degrease, due to the unaffected total weight being transferred from the inside to the outside.

The effect of the above will alter the weight transfer at the front of the car, and also the rear, but not the total weight transfer from the inside of the car to the outside.

Since the stiff front end of the car is rolling more than before adding the bracing, the weight transfer between the front 2 wheels will increase, and the weight transfer between the two rears will decrease due to the lesser roll angle from before. Hence why you often hear people say “adding this brace made my car oversteer more”.
(More weight transfer at one end of the car will reduce grip at that end).

The of increase in WT (weight transfer) at the front, will be equal to the decrease in WT at the rear, as I mentioned before, the total amount of WT inside to outside wont be effected, only the amounts at the front compared to the rear.

So no mater how much you brace the chassis to increase its resistance to twisting, the total roll angle will not change (what where concerned about), but the differences in roll angles between the front and rear will be reduced, with both front and rear roll angles moving closer to the total/average roll angle.

[Muzz]

This causes grip at the stiffer end of the car to be reduced and given to the softer end. Something you don’t really want in a fwd with a higher roll resistance at the front, we want all the front grip we can get. (This can be compensated by increasing the roll resistance in the rear, or decreasing the front, but it somtimes means less than ideal spring rates/swaybars etc.)

In a rwd, with a higher front roll resistance, increasing the torsional rigidity will mean more grip at the rear, meaning on corner exit, power can be put down earlier and stronger. With equalled powered cars, the car with the higher corner exit speed will gain all the way down the straight to the braking zone, on the car that has a slower corner exit speed. There’s a saying “races are won in the corner exits” its obviously not true as there are tons of areas which effect lap times greatly, but corner exit speeds are extremely important.

……………………………………………………………………………………….



In point 2 you start by saying that increases in torsional rigidity dont really benefit our FWD cars, then go into explaining why it does. If there is no benefit why do race cars have cages? surely its not just for safety?.

My above 2 paragraphs show why its not very important/beneficial in a fwd.
For a lot of cars it is a great benefit, especially high level race cars.

Tuning the suspension is done with the assumption that there is one single roll angle, not separate angles at the front and rear. Having a separate roll angle at the front compared to the rear from a flexing body makes things 100x more complicated to calculate, something which is already extremely complicated to begin with!

Since the suspension is calculated around having a completely rigid body, the results of the calculations made by a race engineer will be much more visible in real life on a stiff body car then a car which flexes easily. On a flexible car, the results of the race engineer’s calculations will be quite far off from what is actually happening due to the flexing. Making the development stage a lot trickier, with alterations not always having the expected effect.

Another benefit of increasing the torsional resistance of the body is that in a way, it makes each corner of the suspension slightly more independent from each other, helping the car deal with rough/bumpy roads better.

………………………………………………………………………..





"Increasing the torsional resistance of the chassis wont effect the amount of total weight transfer" - i understand this, there will be no basic reduction because the weight is still there, i think i meant the roll factor wont be as bad.

The overall body roll wont be effected (which is what we are concerned about regarding body roll, how much overall there is), however as I mentioned above, increasing the torsional resistance to twist will very slightly effect the roll angles at the 2 ends of the car which alters the balance of grip (not always in a positive way, especially with fwds).

However one thing im yet to mention, is that strut braces don’t do much to effect the torsional rigidity of the vehicles body (due to the fact they only brace in a single plane across the chassis), they brace the suspension mount points more than anything. A cage is needed to make a good impact on the torsional resistance to twist
…………………………………………………………………………………

"And im very interested to hear your reasoning why bracing is going to increase in corner stability and turn in" - my semi educated view is if you try and turn a car in violently to a sharp turn, and it has NO bracing, the twisting notion you have expressed will take away from vehicles ability to change direction quickly, cleanly and sharply... am i incorrect?

In terms of bracing the suspension mount points, id say your very likely correct there. The sudden forces act directly on the cars body probably making sudden changes more accurate and instant.

Regarding increasing the cars torsional resistance (to twisting), I believe it could alter turn in both positively OR negatively, depending on tons of other factors in the setup.
……………………………………………………………………………….


With reference to mid corner stability, once again im referring to the notion that the car body is experiencing the twist which you speak of, mid corner adjustments SURELY can be made easier and more precise if the top half of your car body is not like a jello cube and can follow what the bottom half wants to do... am i incorrect?

To be honest I really can’t answer you here, hence why I was interested in your reasoning behind your thoughts. Hopefully ill be able to answer this in the future as ive just began reading a book on race car dynamics which I believe will cover these areas well.

Making alterations during steady state cornering is way beyond my depth, however in steady state cornering I believe that:

1. Bracing the suspension mount points has the ability to help hold the alignment true, allowing slightly higher cornering forces from greater grip during mid corner in steady state.

2. Increasing the chassis’s torsional resistance to twist defiantly doesn’t always mean greater cornering forces as ive shown above in other answers, especially on a fwd with a higher roll stiffness at the front.
…………………………………………………………………………………..


I may have got some things mixed up here with swaybars and strut bars, im not a pro, and dont profess to be really... but i like to learn so if you could clarify for me that'd be great... just for my information, do you race or have vast experience with this stuff?
I look forward to hearing back.

Im defiantly no pro either, the more I learn regarding suspension, the more I realise how very very little I know about the subject, lol.
I don’t race (yet anyways), I just find suspension extremely interesting, due to how very complex it really is, and how there’s no perfect setup, its ALL about compromises. My strong interest has led to me buying and reading a ton of performance suspension tuning/chassis engineering books etc.

Muzz





But that may just be an expectation created by the psyche, nevertheless i feel a difference.


Even if it is just a placebo effect, it it helps the driver feel better/perform better/feel more comfortable at the limits, thats just as important too.:thumbsup:

[Zilli]

awesome dude

thanks very much for your detailed response, i think i might need to read it a couple of times before i completely understand!

[Muzz]

awesome dude

thanks very much for your detailed response, i think i might need to read it a couple of times before i completely understand!

Cheers bud:thumbsup:
One book which i strongly recomend for anyone interested is "tune to win" by carroll smith. Its written really well, and is pretty easy to understand compared to alot of other books:thumbsup:

[040501912]

WOAAAH ... im reading it at 2 am not helping me!! undstand ... damn .. might try again tomorrow :p LOL !! very nice..