exhuast system

[CIV73C]

hey pplz

yeh i kno this topic on exuast systems hav been posted b4..
but hasnt got the exact info im lookin for.

ive got a [acronym:3cb3d80aad="Single Overhead Cam"]SOHC[/acronym:3cb3d80aad] vtec EG5..
and im looking for some power gains down the low ends..

would a 2.25" mandrel bent or press bent piping be too big?. or are these just the right size?.. Which one?

and is it onli the size of the piping which determines the power gains.. if any?
or does tthe muffler also hav an effect too the power gains aswel?

[egSi]

keep it simple dude.

the best thing to get for your vti is:

headers of some description like xforce or hurricane or something
and then a hi-flow cat with 2.25 mandrel bent exhaust with a stainless muffler out the back.
the muffler should be 2.25 straight through as well. :)

unless you wana try 5 different exhausts and put in some dyno time dont worry bout it.

bolt on cat backs can be expensive.

[CIV73C]

i called up livo exhaust..
they said that with a 2.25" mandrel bend pipe.. i could lose some power at the bottom end. but would gain at the top end..

and they said with 2" mandrel bend i would gain at the bottom end..

is this right??

[[[d a n n y]]]

lol yeap...

that's right.

[CIV73C]

COol..

SOo whn they say.. gains in bottom end.. does that mean i gain at the lower revz???

[Jus-10]

Yes......if you go 2.25" it will be very sluggish down low and more free-flowing in the upper revs.

All depends how you want to drive your car, but for everyday driving and all-round performance, you would be much better sticking to a 2" mandrel system. 2.25 is just that bit too big IMO for a 1.6 street car.

How much are they charging for a cat-back mandrel system if you don't mind me asking?

[CIV73C]

well. i calld up Liverpool Exhaust today..
and they said $280 for a 2" mandrel bend.
and $350.. from wat i can remember.. for a 2.25"

COol. so i think i should get the 2" since i need some torque down low revs.

[egSi]

top end, top end, top end, top end............

go the 2.25 :shock:
just my 2cents, i got 2.25 on my Si and it kicks arse high up like 5+

torque is for burn outs, u wont be able to get off the line :cry:

[Jus-10]

Is that price with a muffler and everything? Is it mild steel or stainless?

The price sounds pretty good.

2" will still provide better flow up top over the stock system, just that you will still have better low/mid-range as well. It is just a much better all-round compromise compared to 2.25".

[raff]

so you guys recken even wit a set of 4-2-1 headers on the sohc vtec a 2.25" exhaust is still too big.........is it noticably too big compared to the 2" system?

[CIV73C]

hrm.. well im puttin in my 17" rimz soon, n im sure that'll slow the car down a lil. or at least it'l feel a lil slow..
so i wanna get some torque down low to have a bit of power to take off..
SOo i think i'l go for the 2"

n i dont wanna lose any power at low revz wif the 2.25" since a [acronym:f06009adcf="Single Overhead Cam"]SOHC[/acronym:f06009adcf] doesnt have much torque to start wif..

HEyy.. Another Question.. will i need to change my Catalyst converter as well? whn i change the exhaust system???



Is that price with a muffler and everything? Is it mild steel or stainless?


i think the price includes the muffler?!.. n its mild steel.. i can't remember
but if u wanna make sure.. Give Liverpool Exhaust a call..
i dont have their number, so just look it up on the net or sth..

[raff]

i dunno out ur cat bro mayb sum1 1 can shed sum light about this.....

i want a nice sound still..will a 2" piping with 4-2-1 headers and a ss muffler give a nice sound? loud but not sickening loud.......:)

[CIV73C]

i think there were a few topics about exhaust sounds which had sound clips..
but for some reason it didnt work for me..

RAFF: when are u plannin to get ur exhaust system?

[Jus-10]

raff, your 'ideal' setup if you have the extractors would be to make the piping the same diameter as the exit of the collector of the extractors.

As for sounds, it depends on the muffler and plenty has been said about this before. If you want it quieter, go for a bigger muffler - you can still get great flowing mufflers that aren't too loud. Just go for something with a straight-through design. If you want loud, just look towards the N1 style. Most importantly, get a resonator. I believe that you will get a lot more resonance in the car with a 2.25" system when compared to a 2"

[[[d a n n y]]]

2.25 is better..for my civic..

2" just isnt enuff..on the top end

[Jus-10]

But you have a B16 and you are always revving the crap out of it (well every time I've seen you )

We're talking about a D16 here.....

[raff]

im getting my exhaust in about 3 weeks when i get my headers......

im thinking still 2.25" since i recken 2" isnt much larger from stock......

is 2.25" still okay to have?

does any1 know what the best piping would be with 4-2-1 headers? as in best gains and sound

[CIV73C]

]";p="106686]2.25 is better..for my civic..

2" just isnt enuff..on the top end


YEah.. but u've gotta whole diff engine to us.
[acronym:28f621b428="Double Overhead Cam"]DOHC[/acronym:28f621b428] and [acronym:28f621b428="Valve Timing and lift Electronic Control"]VTEC[/acronym:28f621b428]!!!!


do u feel that u're losin any power at the bottom end?

[Jus-10]

Like I said, get the same size piping as the end of the extractors. It will probably be around the 2.25" mark I would think...so when you get the extractos, measure the outlet and get the piping the same size....

Too easy!

For sound, you will probably get more resonance with 2.25" than you will with 2", other than that, it's the muffler that determines the actual sound coming out the back.. Again, the gains from each size have been described in this thread. 2.25" will give top end with slight loss down low, whereas 2" will retain low down with improved mid range and top end.

Yeah 2" may not be much bigger than stock, but 2.25" isn't much bigger than 2" (we're talking like 6mm), but it does make a noticeable difference!

[CIV73C]

im getting my exhaust in about 3 weeks when i get my headers......

im thinking still 2.25" since i recken 2" isnt much larger from stock......

is 2.25" still okay to have?


when u get ur exhaust system.. let me kno what u got. n any gains or loses on power!!!

[CIV73C]

they also sell 2" extractors rite??
so if i get a 2" pipin.. i can hook it up wif the 2" outlet from the extractors

[VTEChnique]

OK just to stir-up the fire..

I just installed Cat-back 2.5" mild Steel (mandrel) with Under-Axle pipe to muffler (2.5" straight-thru) with one hot-dog resonator.

I have the same [acronym:133f8a0007="Single Overhead Cam"]SOHC[/acronym:133f8a0007]-[acronym:133f8a0007="Valve Timing and lift Electronic Control"]VTEC[/acronym:133f8a0007] engine as yours (D16Y1)..

now without any dyno test it's hard to exactly tell you where any gains/losses were made, but with extensive seat-of-your-pants testing, I did get some 'Lag' in the low RPM - as in the tacho took longer to get through the 1500-3000 RPM range, but the speedo seems to be pulling OK.. then about 3500 seems to get on-song and has totally flattened out the spike in the power-curve where [acronym:133f8a0007="Valve Timing and lift Electronic Control"]VTEC[/acronym:133f8a0007] engauges.. now dont get me wrong, havnt lost power - it's gained much more power just prior to the [acronym:133f8a0007="Valve Timing and lift Electronic Control"]VTEC[/acronym:133f8a0007] point and then from 5500-7000 it pulls harder than ever before..

HOWEVER, the system is IMO too loud.. and at cruise, tends to drone a little too much for my liking. Since installing the adjustable silencer to my muffler (open to max-flow setting) it has retained most of the power gains, but helped the low RPMs a bit, and reduced the drone at cruise by 60% i'd say.

Now as i have mentioned before, the 2.5" size was only in anticipation of my [acronym:133f8a0007="Double Overhead Cam"]DOHC[/acronym:133f8a0007] [acronym:133f8a0007="Valve Timing and lift Electronic Control"]VTEC[/acronym:133f8a0007] swap - NOT for the D-series... but was surprised

I RECOMMEND for YOUR [acronym:133f8a0007="Single Overhead Cam"]SOHC[/acronym:133f8a0007] [acronym:133f8a0007="Valve Timing and lift Electronic Control"]VTEC[/acronym:133f8a0007] that you get 4-2-1 headder (for mid range power) and then a 2.25" mandrel cat-back. This will give you a nice 'note' and give great power-gains in mid and high power range.

[raff]

som nice info here......
i will let you know when i get my exhaust done SIV7EC!!
i am gonna go with 2.25 all through with a canon muffler!!

thanx for that lil bit of info 2 VTEChnique very very helpful!

nwwayz gl with ur exhaust SIV7EC nd i will reply 2 this thread when its done!

[CIV73C]

VTEChnique:.. from wat u've just said.. sounds like the 2.5" is pretti good..
n mayb the 2.25 might alrite for me.. since im not all out for power..

so.. if the 2.25 pipin. wif 4-2-1 headers will help with the mid - high revs..
what can i put to get some gains in the low revs???

[CIV73C]

VTEChnique:.. do u stil have ur stock catalyst convertor?.. or did u change that aswel?

SO uve only got the 2.5" cat back??.. no headers?

[Kit]

I've covered this topic in depth before.
I would recommend fitting a 2 inch diameter mandrel bent cat back. with a straight through muffler.

Although many people on here do use 2.25, i wouldn't recommend it, you will lose low to mid range torque, and the 2.25 will have marginal (if any gain at all) over a 2 inch.
the problem is, you sacrifice low to mid range throttle response. and where does your car spend 99% of its life? low to mid rpm.

also, if you can afford it... Always get a brand name (japanese, jasma approved) exhaust, its well worth the money.

also, one more thing that i keep on reminding people. Mugen DON'T make a catback system for the EK4 (B16A) civic, they only have the rear twin loop muffler for it. The reason is, mugen believe that the stock B pipe (2 inch press bent pipe) is good enough for 200hp before it becomes a restriction. The main restriction in the system is the muffler. and remember, you don't have a B16A under your bonnet either.

hope that helps.

[Kit]

just to add some more input, i have used 2.25inch mandrel, 2 inch press and 2 inch mandrel bent on my EK4 civic. if i were to do it again, I'll get a jap exhaust hehehe
but if i had to get custom again, I'll get the 2 inch mandrel.

and yes, 2.25 drones alot more than 2 inch. infact, its bloody annoying!

[CIV73C]

Thanks for all that KIT..

i was plannin on a 2" since i realli want the gains down low..
but . rite now. i've been offerd a 2.25" cat back for $100.
SOo i was wondering.. since i might lose some power with the 2.25".. is there anything else that i can add .. to get some gains in the low.. - mid and also high revs?.. or wil i have to sacrafice gains from either the low revz or high revz?

[Kit]

Thanks for all that KIT..

i was plannin on a 2" since i realli want the gains down low..
but . rite now. i've been offerd a 2.25" cat back for $100.
SOo i was wondering.. since i might lose some power with the 2.25".. is there anything else that i can add .. to get some gains in the low.. - mid and also high revs?.. or wil i have to sacrafice gains from either the low revz or high revz?

Civ73c,
i learned the hard way: cos I used to do things the economical way, and i found that i constantly had to go back and change it and in the end it cost more.

by getting rid of the restrictive muffler and replacing it with a high flow item, you are already freeing up the exhaust system significantly.

$100 is cheap for a 2.25 cat back, what does it include? I'm guessing that its a mild steel custom system.

if its got 1 or 2 hotdog resonators, a stainless steel straight through muffler, and the welding doesnt look too bad, then I'd probably get it if I were you, cos you'll have no problems selling it back out for $100 later anyway. hopefully it won't have one of those cheap and nasty mild steel mufflers.

there is no way to significantly beef up the low to mid range of a civic (without going to extremes hehe) but i guess you could fit a good set of extractors.
that will help it a bit.

but to get a good set, again costs a lot of money. so you'll be spending more money again.
its important to get a good set of extractors rather than any custom jobbies. Extractor tuning is crutial to engine performance.

:)

[CIV73C]

COol.. fanx.. i'l prob get those 2.25"..
just gotta go n hava look at em first..

[raff]

let me know how it turns out SIV7EC..........

so ur getin 4-2-1 headers with 2.25" mandrel piping?

which i will most probably get.....

[CIV73C]

yeh i was plannin on that..

but the offer for the 2.25" for 100 was sold..
so im stil lookin around for others

[VTEChnique]

I still retain stock cast exhaust manifold, and stock Cat.. the B-pipe from the car flanges from 1.75" to 2.5".. the cat is a big bottleneck, but will be replaced when I go [acronym:daf928cee9="Double Overhead Cam"]DOHC[/acronym:daf928cee9].

There's not much you can do for a civic in the low RPM.. the only thing you can do is supercharge it or increase the displacement to 1.8L+ but THAT isnt practical on a D-seies.

Now dont get me wrong, I have got great mid-range and top-end gains, with more gains to come from a header and decent cat, but for a N/A D-series I'd still only go for 2.25" mandrel.

On the EK9/Mugen exhaust issue, you're dead right. I think Mugen DOES actually have an entire cat-back system for EK4/9 (in 2004 catalogue), but their main seller is the twin-loop axle-back system. Prior to installation of my new exhaust, I only had a CAD-designed 2" axle-back with straight-thru steel muffler whilst retaining completely stock 1.75" B-pipe. This Axle-back had surprising gains in midrange even with the stock B-pipe and exhaust manifold.

[Civic Type R]

I wouldnt go any larger than 2" on any D series piping. Its not needed. Mugen also say this as its also been said before earlier in this topic.

[raff]

how about for a nice sound?? do you recken 2" and 2.25" is abig difference?

[Civic Type R]

makes no difference if its 1" or 3 "

[Xenon]

Actually, the size of the piping will make a big difference in sound characteristics. A small piping will cause a lot of restriction and the system will be a lot quiter.
I think u meant the tip of the muffler makes no difference if 3"

[Kit]

makes no difference if its 1" or 3 "

it does actually.
2.25 drones a lot more than 2 inch.

[Civic Type R]

lol !
:D

[raff]

would a 2" with headers and a ss canon muffler make a nice sound?

[CIV73C]

Raff.. im sure the 2" will be good alreadi..
y are u soo picky wif the sound?..

wat are u realli wanting from this exhaust system?

[[[d a n n y]]]

cannons r gay make the most gayest bassy noise ever..

kills ya on a long trip..

i hated it..

should i say it more annoying ..really and it hurts ur ears

[Civic Type R]

im running a 2.25" with replica Mugen Twin loop.
it also does drone on long trips too :/ but i dont know what cannons are like so i honestly cant compare.

[Kit]

its one of the reasons why i recommend getting a Jasma approved japanese exhaust over custom made.

nearly all the custom exhausts Ive see will drone, and typically they are a lot louder than Jap exhausts.

[Civic Type R]

So is a Jasma stainless steel extractor/exhaust quieter than a custom mild steel extractor built to the exact same specs ?

[CIV73C]

heyy.. wat do u mean.. whn u say the exhausts will "drone"?????

[Kit]

So is a Jasma stainless steel extractor/exhaust quieter than a custom mild steel extractor built to the exact same specs ?

the custom will probably be quieter since it is mild steel.
but the jap exhaust will have better welding.

[Kit]

heyy.. wat do u mean.. whn u say the exhausts will "drone"?????

hard to describe, but its the annoying exhaust sound that you get when you are at cruising speeds.

its not the volume of the sound but rather the type of sound, i'm not sure if i can explain it properly

[Civic Type R]

the custom will probably be quieter since it is mild steel.
but the jap exhaust will have better welding.
Yes i totally agree with u on that one.
I have had the 2 in my hands and the JASMA one was like perfectly welded.
But at the end of the day it wsnt worth paying twice as much for the same expected gains..

[CIV73C]

heyy.. wat do u mean.. whn u say the exhausts will "drone"?????

hard to describe, but its the annoying exhaust sound that you get when you are at cruising speeds.

its not the volume of the sound but rather the type of sound, i'm not sure if i can explain it properly


Hrmm, Ooo ok..
well. i'l hava listen to my current exhaust while cruisn.. n c how that is..

[Kit]

the custom will probably be quieter since it is mild steel.
but the jap exhaust will have better welding.
Yes i totally agree with u on that one.
I have had the 2 in my hands and the JASMA one was like perfectly welded.
But at the end of the day it wsnt worth paying twice as much for the same expected gains..

reason for the welding quality is cos the jap exhausts (nearly all of em anyway) are machine welded, while the local custom ones, are obviously hand welded.

the other problem is, with local exhausts, they usually get pipes and bends and weld them together.
they get their pipes, weld it and theres your exhaust, there is absolutely no testing or tuning involved.

I have found that the joins on the inside of the exhaust are never smooth as a result of this joining of pipes. It just adds more to unwanted turbulance.
For a turbo car its not as important, but for small displacement NA cars, exhaust tuning is very critical to performance.

Liverpool exhausts are the only place that i have seen that start off with a 1 piece mandrel bent exhaust, so thats why i recommend them out of all the other custom exhaust shops.