brass button clutch - why cant i down shift?

[mercury]

I find that when i down shift on the new brass button clutch it jerks and stutters. I have to rev it first while the clutch is pressed then down shift and it will do it normally.

is that normal with brass button clutches?

I also kind of understand now why they do the initial d foot thingie to keep the revs high when down shifting.

anyways, thanks in advanced guys.

[aaronng]

Have you tried double clutching? Also where are you located?

[mercury]

yeh when i double clutch its fine...

but i never used to do that with my normal clutch

[aaronng]

It's weird because if you hold the clutch down and blip the throttle, it doesn't speed up the input shaft. So if that helps your shifting, your clutch might not be disengaging fully. Where is the biting point of your new clutch? Right at the floor or in the middle of travel? Where was the biting point of your old clutch?

[mercury]

the biting point is exactly the same as my old clutch.. everything is great, its definately stronger and faster, but its just not down shifting properly unless i

rev first then down shift..

someone told me that you cant down shift with brass button clutches..

is that right?

[TEGNO1]

Yeah you gotta heel and toe it.
Not sure why something to do with inertia, weight, rev matching....dont know
But thats the way i down shift on mine or put it in neutral when slowing down most of the time and use the brakes.

[aaronng]

the biting point is exactly the same as my old clutch.. everything is great, its definately stronger and faster, but its just not down shifting properly unless i

rev first then down shift..

someone told me that you cant down shift with brass button clutches..

is that right?
The only difference with regards to shifting is the weight, so the speed at which the input shaft slows down is different to that of a stock clutch. Otherwise it's similar except that a button clutch doesn't let you slip the clutch, it's like an on-off switch while the OEM clutch is like a dimmer switch.

[mercury]

Yeah you gotta heel and toe it.
Not sure why something to do with inertia, weight, rev matching....dont know
But thats the way i down shift on mine or put it in neutral when slowing down most of the time and use the brakes.

what brand is your brass button clutch?

[DLO01]

Whats it like when taking off from stand still? Does is shudder as well?

Of course if the blip the throttle its is fine. Your matching the revolutions more.

[TEGNO1]

Dont know what brand last time i looked it was orange maybe centerforce and around 1 tone clamping with 5 puck plate.
Just got to get used to the the quicker take up less room for error.
I can ride it just a bit.
Doesnt shutter at all on take off.
I dont think its any trouble at all just something to get used to but the benefits far outway the cons i think.
Just blip the throttle with the heel or ball of the foot... if you have enough time , or use nuetral for downshifts .thats what i do.
Dont worry too much its normal you'l get used to it.
My opinion only dont quote me.

[mercury]

Whats it like when taking off from stand still? Does is shudder as well?

Of course if the blip the throttle its is fine. Your matching the revolutions more.

taking off is fine...

[Dylanamus]

No need to heel and toe to spin the input shaft to match revs, just slide into neutral, blip and engage. It becomes second nature after a while and really doesn't slow down your downshifting.

[ginganggooly]

Is the problem selecting the gear, or is it the shudder you get when you release the clutch??

If your issue is shudder upon releasing the clutch, it's just because you need to rev match reasonably accurately when down shifting. All button clutch equipped cars that i've driven have behaved like this.
It's similar to riding the clutch on takeoff, you'll notice the car will shudder and buck....

[czy_sol87]

^^^yep as above
i've got a 3 puck sports ceramic clutch and it shuddered while taking off, down shifting etc, unless i rev match while down shifting, i have to do it all the time now...

does anyone know how i make my clutch's friction point lower???, it's the same as the stock clutch, very high up...
would i need to change my clutch MC, or is there a way to adjust it??

[aaronng]

^^^yep as above
i've got a 3 puck sports ceramic clutch and it shuddered while taking off, down shifting etc, unless i rev match while down shifting, i have to do it all the time now...

does anyone know how i make my clutch's friction point lower???, it's the same as the stock clutch, very high up...
would i need to change my clutch MC, or is there a way to adjust it??

Is it a cabled or hydraulic clutch? If you have a clutch MC, then it is hydro and you can loosen the nut securing the road that goes into the piston. Turn the rod clockwise so that the rod goes in a bit. Do it a little at a time. The more you turn it in, the lower the clutch biting point becomes. You must have it so that the biting point is not near the bottom of the floor, but a bit up, otherwise the clutch will be only partially disengaged even when you push the pedal all the way down. The downside is that you will have more freeplay in your clutch pedal, which you can reduce by adjusting the clutch switch level. The more you adjust the clutch switch level downwards, the shorter your pedal travel will be. Always leave a little bit of freeplay in your clutch pedal (about 1-1.5cm). If you remove all the freeplay, then your clutch can slip even when your foot is not on the pedal. It is all a compromise.

Oh, and remember to tigthen all the nuts back up before you drive. :)

[mercury]

Is the problem selecting the gear, or is it the shudder you get when you release the clutch??

If your issue is shudder upon releasing the clutch, it's just because you need to rev match reasonably accurately when down shifting. All button clutch equipped cars that i've driven have behaved like this.
It's similar to riding the clutch on takeoff, you'll notice the car will shudder and buck....

yes u are exactly right.

I need to rev match when downshifting. After much research, i found that this is normally the nature of brass button clutches.

If anyone has a brass button clutch and can down shift without rev matching at all, pls PM me. I want to know what you did :D

thanks in advanced.

[aaronng]

^^ reading owns me. I read your first post again and realised that you were getting shudder when releasing clutch. I thought you were having problems getting the stick into gear. Ginganggooly is right. If you have a button clutch, you must rev match when downshifting. Even with a standard clutch, I rev match when downshifting because it reduces wear on the clutch.

[SeverAMV]

If anyone has a brass button clutch and can down shift without rev matching at all, pls PM me. I want to know what you did :D
thanks in advanced.

if you look on youtube, theres a video of a guy shifting gears in his dc5 type r without using the clutch at all, and without grinding either, which isnt too bad. but note that brass button clutches are designed specifically for racing use, so you kinda have to use racing techniques like heel toe, rev matching, clutch riding, etc, whatever else you'd like to call it. they're all pretty much doing the same thing; matching the revs to the speed in the gear. just curious tho, how much did you fork out for the thing?

[aaronng]

if you look on youtube, theres a video of a guy shifting gears in his dc5 type r without using the clutch at all, and without grinding either, which isnt too bad. but note that brass button clutches are designed specifically for racing use, so you kinda have to use racing techniques like heel toe, rev matching, clutch riding, etc, whatever else you'd like to call it. they're all pretty much doing the same thing; matching the revs to the speed in the gear. just curious tho, how much did you fork out for the thing?

He said DOWNSHIFT, not upshift.

[SeverAMV]

He said DOWNSHIFT, not upshift.

yeah, i know, i was talking about downshift, not sure which part of my post you were targeting tho.
i think the guy on youtube did do downshifts without clutching.
rev matching is the american term for heel-toe, except rev matching also applies to upshift.
some people dont do heel-toe because they find it awkward so they stop braking, and ride the clutch out on the downshift.

[aaronng]

yeah, i know, i was talking about downshift, not sure which part of my post you were targeting tho.
i think the guy on youtube did do downshifts without clutching.
rev matching is the american term for heel-toe, except rev matching also applies to upshift.
some people dont do heel-toe because they find it awkward so they stop braking, and ride the clutch out on the downshift.

Look at his post above, he was clearly asking about downshifting. :) Revmatching is not heel-toe. Heel-toe is revmatching while pressing the brakes. It is not an american term. They still call it heel-toe there.



If anyone has a brass button clutch and can down shift without rev matching at all, pls PM me. I want to know what you did :D
thanks in advanced.



if you look on youtube, theres a video of a guy shifting gears in his dc5 type r without using the clutch at all, and without grinding either, which isnt too bad. but note that brass button clutches are designed specifically for racing use, so you kinda have to use racing techniques like heel toe, rev matching, clutch riding, etc, whatever else you'd like to call it. they're all pretty much doing the same thing; matching the revs to the speed in the gear. just curious tho, how much did you fork out for the thing?

[SeverAMV]

Look at his post above, he was clearly asking about downshifting. :) Revmatching is not heel-toe. Heel-toe is revmatching while pressing the brakes. It is not an american term. They still call it heel-toe there.

okie, my bad there. i was told that rev-matching was the american term, lol, seems you do learn something new everyday

[TEGNO1]

You only gotta heel toe when your on the brakes and need to go down a few gears at the same time.
Just rev and change or nuetral when your driving miss daisy.

[SeverAMV]

my synchros are fine so i do the delayed heel toe. ie. rather than revving in neutral, i select the gear with the clutch still down, blip the throttle, then release the clutch. works more smoothly on my ed6 gearbox. gonna get redline lightweight shockproof gear oil to reinforce the gearbox soon to make it easier.

[nd55]

Hey,

I might be a voice of caution here and say slippery-er gear oil will not help with shifts.

The brass synchro's need some friction to rev match.

There has been a huge debate on d-series.org (I think) on this.

I think OEM (or equivalent) is best.

[SeverAMV]

Hey,

I might be a voice of caution here and say slippery-er gear oil will not help with shifts.

The brass synchro's need some friction to rev match.

There has been a huge debate on d-series.org (I think) on this.

I think OEM (or equivalent) is best.

redline oil isnt slippery-er. not sure how its made, but its kinda like castrol magnetec motor oil, it coats the gears entirely so the gears are never really in contact with eachother, thus reducing the crunch. and its a low viscosity oil, so more power is transferred.
that and i hate the factory gearbox oil, it keeps corroding my synchros for some reason.

[nd55]

i hate the factory gearbox oil, it keeps corroding my synchros for some reason.

Huh???


Never heard of this before. You using the right stuff?

Civics use light weight oil (less than EP4 grade, but I'm really not sure).

Early EP5 gear oil used a sulfur compound to add the shockproof qualities to the oil, but this had a known corrosion effect on yellow metals.

Later EP5 gear oil solved this, I believe.

You actually seen the pitting on the synchros?

Something sounds wrong to me.

Nick.

[SeverAMV]

Huh???


Never heard of this before. You using the right stuff?

Civics use light weight oil (less than EP4 grade, but I'm really not sure).

Early EP5 gear oil used a sulfur compound to add the shockproof qualities to the oil, but this had a known corrosion effect on yellow metals.

Later EP5 gear oil solved this, I believe.

You actually seen the pitting on the synchros?

Something sounds wrong to me.

Nick.

yeah, seen it and felt it for myself. i prefer redline oil now, feels much better.

[flipstar]

yea my bro got a 5 puck plate as well shudders on down shift but all i do is pull the clutch out like im gonna ride it on take off and there isnt anything to it no shudders but its got a vicious bite if u jus pull it out quickly on up or down shifts

[Topendwarrior]

If it was a decent brand clutch and fitted with new or machined flywheel and correct installation precedures, then you really shouldn't have to worry about how it behaves on upshift or downshift. Its all a matter of using the right foot techniques and getting use to the clutch.
With new clutches, is important to know that initial bedding period is crucial and you need to treat it properly so it beds in properly.