How Luxury is the Euro?

[marosch]

Hi guys,

just got my Euro Lux yesterday and I'm very happy so far. Only one little rattle, which I have to get fixed.

I've chosen the car because I wanted to save some fuel and I don't need a large car anymore.

But I honestly don't understand why the Automobile Clubs (RACV and others) rate the Euro as a luxury vehicle.
Or is it that cars in Australia are not as luxurious as in Europe?

While I was living in Europe, I've had several Renault, Citroen, Opel (Holden) and Audi vehicles and the features (options) I had in those cars I can't buy in Australia.
The same scenario with the Euro. Why can't we get some features other countries can get (Premium Sound System/Lane Assist thingi).
I do understand that Wagons aren't as popular in AUS, but Diesel cars certainly become more and more popular, and the Accord Diesel is a very fine piece of equipment.

Cheers,
Marc

[r-r-redEuro]

congrats on getting the car. it is a good car.

imo in answering your question is that maybe the european market is much more bigger then ours and their expectations in everything are much more higher ? its true isnt it ? also like in the U.S the acuraTSX is in competition with bmw's and those high class cars as here in australia its competed with mazdas ? libertys ? and the money to give the extra features will cost. im pretty sure there was a threat already posted simliar to this.

well thats my two cents. peter

[marosch]

Hi Peter,

I can see where you are coming from.

But I can get the Mazda 6 with Bose Sound System and the Liberty with the Infinity System (only top of range though).

It is obvious that Honda can't supply a car for every taste and that they have done some market research.

I'm only asking why some features are not available, when others deliver the features. The Euro Sound System can't even play MP3, but the Civic can.
Every Totyota, Hyundai and Mazda is supporting MP3.

I don't want to get too exited, because it is a great car and I had MP3 over Bluetooth retro fitted.

Cheers

P.S. Searched for a similar threat, but too many threats starting with luxury ;-)

[aaronng]

In the US, Europe and Japan, it is considered a luxury car, and so you get premium audio, memory seats for 2 driver profiles, auto lights, heated mirrors, lane assist and all that. The competitors of the Euro there are the sportier sedans such as the 325i and A4 2.4L. Therefore the Euro and TSX are priced at a similar price to the BMW and Audi (but usually at a slightly cheaper price in order to be competitive against an european marque).

Unfortunately, in Australia, the competitors of the Euro are the Mazda6, Liberty, Vectra and Camry. That's why we get less luxury features but at least it is priced at about 60% of a 325i. :)

That's why eventhough it is called an Euro Luxury, has leather, seat warmers, auto wipers, HIDs and power seats, it doesn't get the extras that bring it up to the BMW/Audi's level. If it did, then instead of selling it for $43k for the auto, it would be bumped up to the $71k of an E46 325i sport.

[aaronng]

Hi Peter,

I can see where you are coming from.

But I can get the Mazda 6 with Bose Sound System and the Liberty with the Infinity System (only top of range though).

It is obvious that Honda can't supply a car for every taste and that they have done some market research.

I'm only asking why some features are not available, when others deliver the features. The Euro Sound System can't even play MP3, but the Civic can.
Every Totyota, Hyundai and Mazda is supporting MP3.

I don't want to get too exited, because it is a great car and I had MP3 over Bluetooth retro fitted.

Cheers

P.S. Searched for a similar threat, but too many threats starting with luxury ;-)
Bose is overrated. You have to listen to both the Mazda6's Bose system and the Euro's system in order to decide whether if the Bose is better.

As for the Subaru, only the GT gets the premium system, and that is already in a different class. The Liberty 2.5L premium is the competitor of the Euro Lux.

[marosch]

Thanks Aarong,

I agree and have to disagree as well.

If the Euro had all the features and the engine of a 325i, it would be more expensive, but still cheaper than a German car.

I guess the guys in Japan don't believe that it is getting cold in Australia and therefore we don't need heated mirrors (which I really miss as a feature).

The Euro Lux is called Executive in Germany and has not many more features than the Lux in AUS (only Bluetooth/heated and folding mirrors/Premium Sound).
The price tag is EURO 33,500 or AU$53,200

We are getting the Euro quite cheap in Australia :D

To get back to my question:
I see a Lexus as a luxury vehicle (with the luxury price tag), but the Accord doesn't fit in this category in my opinion.
I believe it is a great car and superb value for money.

Cheers
Marc

[r-r-redEuro]

lol yes what aaronng said, ive been here for a while and his always got my questions answered, cheers to aaron and my work enivornment is around cars, ive been in practically every single cars even ferraris in ONE or two ocassions but rarely, the bose sound system is overrated its not that good, imho the honda sound system is better. lol

and its kind of harsh to compare the euro to a $80G car, lexus lol you get what you pay i suppose in name of the badge and reputation.

[marosch]

Hi again,

before it gets a bit off track:

This is not to argue about the qualities of the Accord and say it is not a good car. It is actually a great car.

In MY opinion it is not a luxury car. Just a mid sized sedan with some more features.

The Lexus IS 250 actually starts at $54k and goes up to $79k

We (I) need to compare apples with apples, and I see where you are coming from with the GT. But the size of the car is the same and the competitors offer different engines and spec levels, as Honda does in other markets as well.

If the Euro was available as a Euro R or as a 2.3 Turbo, people would be prepared to pay more for them. But does a bigger engine automatically means better interior?

Bose Sound Systems are most the time overrated, but sound good enough for my taste (I had one in my Audi). Could be my age and that I'm more on the phone than listening to the Sound System :o

Have a nice evening!!

[aaronng]

Lexus got its name together with the top luxury marques not solely because of their cars. Up to 2001, they were using the top Japanese Toyota models. They succeeded because of their impeccable service. Something that Honda (and Acura) have yet to learn.

The IS250 is not a $79k car. Not when you put it up against an E90 325i Sports ($77,500). But a part of that $79k goes towards the service you get. They come to your house to pick your car up and leave you with a Lexus of at least the same model. While Accord owners get Jazz as loaners, IS owners will get an IS or better, while GS owners won't get an IS loaner but get GS or better.

[Jaso]

But I can get the Mazda 6 with Bose Sound System and the Liberty with the Infinity System (only top of range though).

Have you heard the sound from those systems....and doesn't the Liberty come with McIntosh?

I think the Euro is classed as a Luxury car in Australia...thats what a dealer said to me anyway. It was the best selling "luxury" car. Luxury car meaning it has 6 disc cd and climate control or something like that.

As aaronng said the Euro is priced to compete in its relevant market...which i think it does pretty well.

Base model IS250 is good value...IMO when you start spending more $$$ on the Sports or Sports luxury the value goes down...you get the same drive train as in the base model.

Post some pics up of your Euro!!!

[aaronng]

Hmm, IS250 good value... Hmm, I'd say that the IS250 is good value as a 2 seater, as there aren't many 2+2 cars with that level of comfort and luxury. As a 4 seater, it is bad as the rear seats were too small for me, my head hit the roof at the back, the steering wheel is chunky and ugly while the boot space is the WORST ever in a 4-door sedan. Even the Echo sedan has more boot space. But the Lexus is about indulgence. Why pay less for a similar car when you can spend extra dosh and be treated like a king at the dealership. You even get free coffees (lattes, mocha, espresso, cappucino) at the Lexus dealership during service, unlike Honda where they only give it to you if you are sitting down to negotiate on a price. LOL

[tron07]

I get free cofee, lattes, long/short black etc at my service center... but no loaner... not sure about warranty claims, etc....

[hip]

Ah, one of my favorite topics... I've seen this beat to death here in the states so much it's like talking about religion and politics. There are no winners to these debates only opinions.

When I bought my TSX just about 4 years ago they marketed it against the low end European models from BMW, Audi and Saab. A lot of people started to rip the car because they discovered it was really a Honda Accord, even though Acura was selling it. But based on both price and reliability there was no contest between the TSX and the others. After the crash test data and resale values came in, I knew I made the right decision.

Once the reviews started coming in they were mostly positive and many people started looking at the car differently. The big issue with it here in the states is similar to other Asian imports, not enough low end torque. When you mostly drive in congested traffic, the guy in the Porsche next to you isn't getting there any faster despite how much more powerful his engine is. What people really like is that kick in the pants when they accelerate from a stop light. But I've driven my TSX over 120mph and love how balanced it is, hell even a more civil speeds the car handles outstandingly!

Overall, I have been more than pleased with mine, the biggest issues for me are using Premium fuel only and the poor sound quality of the speakers. BTW, I've pulled out the door panels and they speakers and magnets are really of poor quality even though the system says "Premium Sound." The wife's '93 Accord SE was one of the few cars Honda offered in the U.S. with factory Bose system and I do agree it does sound better. But I have discovered something interesting. when you listen either CDs or an iPod, the sound is much better than when listening the radio - not sure why? One of these days I will probably replace the speakers and boost the amp.

Sorry for the long post...

[eurosp]

Hi guys,

But I honestly don't understand why the Automobile Clubs (RACV and others) rate the Euro as a luxury vehicle.
Or is it that cars in Australia are not as luxurious as in Europe?

Cheers,
Marc

The Euro is rated as Luxury in Australia is also because it is costing over $50K and RACV classified card thats over $50K as Luxury cars.
Besides we actually have to pay more (luxury) stamp duty. $43K is only Euro Standard.

[marckietan]

man....you are paying way too much for your accord euros!!!:eek:

are you rounding up to the nearest 50k!

[r-r-redEuro]

Hmm, IS250 good value... Hmm, I'd say that the IS250 is good value as a 2 seater, as there aren't many 2+2 cars with that level of comfort and luxury. As a 4 seater, it is bad as the rear seats were too small for me, my head hit the roof at the back, the steering wheel is chunky and ugly while the boot space is the WORST ever in a 4-door sedan. Even the Echo sedan has more boot space. But the Lexus is about indulgence. Why pay less for a similar car when you can spend extra dosh and be treated like a king at the dealership. You even get free coffees (lattes, mocha, espresso, cappucino) at the Lexus dealership during service, unlike Honda where they only give it to you if you are sitting down to negotiate on a price. LOL

i agree with aaronng there i went to test drive a IS250 ( girlfriend wanted to buy one, she ended up getting the 07' bmw 320i M package ) the space inside the car would be better off as aaronng said a 2seater.

lol my honda dealer offered me cookies and coffee as i was waiting for my service lol.

but besides that point the lexus dealers showroom has several coffee machines and etc. the service is outstanding what you pay i guess like aaron said goes into service.

[aaronng]

The Euro is rated as Luxury in Australia is also because it is costing over $50K and RACV classified card thats over $50K as Luxury cars.
Besides we actually have to pay more (luxury) stamp duty. $43K is only Euro Standard.

It's not 50k.

Euro base manual: $33,990
Euro base auto: $35,990
Euro luxury manual: $40,990
Euro luxury auto: $42,990

Add in $2000 of onroads and $4000 for the sat nav, and the Euro luxury auto is stil only $48,990 on the road, not yet past the $50k limit for luxury car tax.

[marosch]

Hi guys,

funny that we are now talking about Lexus :)

My Honda dealer in Frankston/VIC is not the largest dealer, but offers good service. The coffee is only instant coffee, but I don't have to ask for it.
I get a free loan car and home pick up if needed.

The flash dealer in Brighton has the coffee bar and even offers sandwiches. But the sales person wasn't as knowledgeable, tried to rip me off and was a bit sleazy.

There you go. I rather support smaller dealers with better service, than the flash and big dealers who need the numbers to pay for the whole crap.

BTW
Luxury tax kicks in above $56k in Australia, or am I wrong?

If a car above $50K is a luxury car, than my Accord Luxury is no Luxury car :angel:

If a car is a luxury vehicle as soon it has a CD stacker and climate control, than every second Korean car is a luxury car.

This is EXACTLY what I wanted to say the whole time!
What the heck is a luxury car?

I drove an Opel Vectra Station Wagon with a 4-cyl. Diesel in Germany. It had features like acclimatized seats and all the electronic whistle and bells.
The comment I got: It's only an Opel, do they try to be something like Mercedes.
I loved the car and it was a pleasure to drive. As is my Accord Euro.
I personally don't really care if it is a "Luxury" or what ever, I only try to figure out what a Luxury vehicle is (in Australia).

SORRY for the long "letter"
:zip:

Have a nice one

[Jaso]

I believe the Luxury car tax is currently $57, 009.

IS250 Prestige Auto $56, 990.

[snajper]

We pay very little for cars in Australia, compared with Europe. (Barina(Corsa) is like 25K in europe, while here around $15K-$17K). That is why we will never see options they get in Europe.

[LXRY]

IMO, the lxry in the euro is just a tag....it is there top of the range in the model discussed.

It does however have some lxry features, e.g heated seats, automatic wipers, which arn't offered in most cars in it's price range.

As for the stereo it outputs wave...mp3 is compressed sound quality no where near wave quality.

Wave is the best :thumbsup:

I am satisfied with my stereo, the clarity is superb, my opinion anyway ;)

[hip]

It's not 50k.

Euro base manual: $33,990 (USD 29.16)
Euro base auto: $35,990 (USD 30.87)
Euro luxury manual: $40,990 (USD 35.16)
Euro luxury auto: $42,990 (USD 36.88)

Add in $2000 (USD 1715.65) of onroads and $4000 (USD 3431.31) for the sat nav, and the Euro luxury auto is stil only $48,990 (USD 42.02) on the road, not yet past the $50k limit for luxury car tax.



I took aaronng's numbers and did some calculations and after converting the prices, you pay considerably higher then we do. When you figure in the lower horsepower and shorter warranty even I would have to question Honda's pricing of the Accord Euro. :(

BTW, what is "onroads?"


2007 Acura TSX 6-Spd MT
Engine: 2.4L I4 205HP
Fuel Econ: 22/30 mpg
$28,090 (AUD 32.75) - MSRP
$25,638 (AUD 29.89) - Invoice


2007 Acura TSX 5-Spd AT
Engine: 2.4L I4 205HP
Fuel Econ: 22/31 mpg
$28,090 (AUD 32.75) - MSRP
$25,638 (AUD 29.89) - Invoice


2007 Acura TSX 6-Spd MT w/ Navigation System
Engine: 2.4L I4 205HP
Fuel Econ: 22/30 mpg
$30,090(AUD 35.08) - MSRP
$27,459 (AUD 32.01) - Invoice


2007 Acura TSX 5-Spd AT w/ Navigation System
Engine: 2.4L I4 205HP
Fuel Econ: 22/31 mpg
$30,090(AUD 35.08) - MSRP
$27,459 (AUD 32.01) - Invoice

[mastcell]

^^ 'onroad' is the final price of the car, after adding state government stamp duty (varies state to state), registration fees and compulsory personal accident insurance, and dealer delivery charges (varies from dealer to dealer). The dealer is responsible for pre-delivery inspection of the car, and car registration process. They charge a fee for all the work they have to do to make the car road-worthy. The state government loves to take a chuck of your money to finance minister's first class air travel to USA and Europe on 'official government business' during the winter parliamentary recess. lol.

[aaronng]

I took aaronng's numbers and did some calculations and after converting the prices, you pay considerably higher then we do. When you figure in the lower horsepower and shorter warranty even I would have to question Honda's pricing of the Accord Euro. :(

Yeah, wait til you see the price of BMW, Audi and Lexus over here!
The 325i manual sedan costs $73,800 (without any options) and the 325i sport manual sedan is $77,500.

[hip]

So why such high numbers? If there is a luxury tax based on a certain price that's one thing.

But a Honda Accord can't be considered in the range of BMW, Audi, etc.

Who's setting these prices anyway?

[aaronng]

So why such high numbers? If there is a luxury tax based on a certain price that's one thing.

But a Honda Accord can't be considered in the range of BMW, Audi, etc.

Who's setting these prices anyway?

Why not? Our Accord is exactly the same as your TSX except for the lack of bluetooth, different instruments and that 7kW. And the TSX is a valid competitor to the 325i. It's the BMW and Audi owners getting ripped off here in Australia. :)

[hip]

Why not? Our Accord is exactly the same as your TSX except for the lack of bluetooth, different instruments and that 7kW. And the TSX is a valid competitor to the 325i. It's the BMW and Audi owners getting ripped off here in Australia. :)

I've heard where Acura was going to start marketing outside North America just like Lexus (Toyota) and Infiniti (Nissan). If and when that occurs, then it would make sense to offer the Euro as an upmarket competitor to BMW, Audi and the others.

I suppose in the end it's all semantics and however Honda wants to market their cars is their business. But honestly, it would make a more compelling case to match apples to apples.

That's why back in '86 Honda created Acura in North America, to legitimize the cars it was offering as something more than simply a fancy or expensive Honda. Of course Toyota and Nissan did the same.

So does that mean the standard Accord is marketed as a more "affordable" vehicle?

[Jaso]

So does that mean the standard Accord is marketed as a more "affordable" vehicle?

My impression is the standard Accord isnt really marketed as much as the Accord Euro/TSX. Its seen as more of a family sized vehicle...but you do see a few with fleet buyers aswell.

[hip]

But interesting to me is despite the fact the Euro is being sold as an upmarket competitor, as the TSX is here, you are paying significantly more then we are... what's wrong with this picture?

[Jaso]

Yah i thinks its cause of various taxes etc. A BMW M5 will set you back >$230, 000 AUD. How much is an M5 in the US? $80, 000 USD?

[IAMVTEC]

For Australia, quite luxury.

Compared to othe places, not really. In australia you buy cars are with really have not many options.

[80057]

aus gov has more taxes on imported cars compared to US, so to make money higher prices are a must. lower numbers and therefore lower eco of scale. cause transportation cost to be higher for oz...the gov here is trying to protect the local industry, holden, ford and mitsu being the main ones

[aaronng]

But interesting to me is despite the fact the Euro is being sold as an upmarket competitor, as the TSX is here, you are paying significantly more then we are... what's wrong with this picture?

It's because prices of cars are higher here. You can look at it from different viewpoints.
1) 325i costs $70k here and we are paying only $41k for the Euro Lux, which makes it relatively cheaper than the price of a TSX compared to the 325i in the US.
2) The Mazda6 Classic Sports hatch costs $40k here and makes the Euro's $41k expensive since the TSX costs much more than a 6 in the US.
3) Australians are just getting plain ripped off when it comes to cars and housing.

[marosch]

Hi guys,

A Accord Euro Executive is more expensive in Germany than in Australia.

It has to do with import tax, GST and some other factors like freight anbd how many cars they can sell in a specific market.
How many TSX does Honda sell in the US and how many Euro in Australia?

A Thai Accord is cheaper than a Japan Accord, because there are different trade agreements.

Do we know how much tax is on a car in the US? Petrol is still heaps cheaper. Petrol in Europe is nearly double the price in Australia.

Is it wrong that the Australian government tries to protect the manufacturers? Many people work in the car industry. I'm only a bit worried that we basically protect American companies and support their ineffective management.

I think it is a bit wrong to compare a 325i with an Accord Euro. Isn't it more the 323i? I just looked on the spec sheet of the cars and the 320i is a little slower than the Euro, but the 325i is heaps faster. The 323i seems right.
A naked 325i cost Euro 33.600 (AU$61,200) and a 320i Euro 28,800 (AU$46,000)
The 323i is not available in Germany at the moment. The price in AUS is $65,000

[aaronng]

I think it is a bit wrong to compare a 325i with an Accord Euro. Isn't it more the 323i? I just looked on the spec sheet of the cars and the 320i is a little slower than the Euro, but the 325i is heaps faster. The 323i seems right.
A naked 325i cost Euro 33.600 (AU$61,200) and a 320i Euro 28,800 (AU$46,000)
The 323i is not available in Germany at the moment. The price in AUS is $65,000
The Euro comes from the same generation as the E46 3-series. It beats the 323i and matches the 325i. When you compare the current E90 series, then yes, the 325i beats the Euro in everything except price. Funny though that the E90 323i is castrated such that it makes only extra 7Nm of torque over the Euro eventhough the engine is 150cc larger.

Euro:
140kW, 223Nm, 2354cc

E46 323i:
125kW, 245Nm, 2494cc
E46 325i:
141kW, 245Nm, 2494cc

E90 323i:
130kW, 230Nm, 2497cc
E90 325i:
160kW, 250Nm, 2497cc