NA build pointers

[EGBOY]

looking at building an NA motor for drags/street
been and done turbo b4 and thought i'd take the true honda approach!

can someone help me out by pointing me in right direction of parts they used with good results etc

i have about 6 thousand to spend and already have a spare b18c ready to rock... it will be going into an eg shell ( if that makes any difference)

[barefootbonzai]

one option could be buy a prebuilt engine and just wack it in. it would save you time and money.

PM Fatboyz or ginganggooly they have some prebuilt motors by dynodave for sale.

[BlitZ]

sell b18c and wack in k20 ;)..

[fatboyz39]

one option could be buy a prebuilt engine and just wack it in. it would save you time and money.



Yeap much better option. Less down time, rather then having car of the road for a month for an engine to be completed it'll take less then a week to install and tune.

[todaek9]

hmm....drag car...hmm...weigh of the car?...hmm hmm...what ya gonna take out from the car?...hmm...

[Terrible One]

Who says a drag car needs to run 10's?

A consistent 13 second car can easily do well in dial your own bracket racing.

[Drew]

I'm getting a K24 built in America for $6800 360kw...

Sleeves, pistons, rods, crank and churbo ehuhuhhuh as well as some head work

[EGBOY]

all these comments on the car, its weight, or slapping in k20's absolutley ****ing usless.. i asked a question and there has been responses posted directly after mine that make valid points ( Barefoot, Fatboyz, and terrible ) as for the rest damn useless...

if i wanted to put a k20 in i would have..
if i wanted 40000kw from a turbo k24 i would have posted in the turbo section.. and as terrible said, obviously with this build its on a low budget and oviously aint going to run super times

i was just after some helpfull info on an NA build b series....

[ginganggooly]

Did you get my PM?

Got a nice, fresh, built b18c for sale right here :)

[fatboyz39]

Don't just spend 6k on the motor i.e head and block. You should budget for bigger throttle body, good intake system, good set of headers, exhaust system, ECU (hondata FTW) and a tune. Reme,ber its the combination of parts that makes power.

Pm me if you want to more info on our B20/Vtec, B18c built motors.

[Terrible One]

fatboyz is right.

Focus on getting as much air in/out as efficiently as possible. Start with a good cold air intake. Either a modified factory airbox with a K&N panel filter or a good aftermarket unit. Then look at other basics like headers, nice clean exhaust with free flowing mufflers and smooth pipe work.

Depending on cash flow you could start doing things like bigger throttle body, aftermarket intake manifold, lightweight pulleys, ECU, cams, headwork, adjustable cam gears, better ignition and fuel system. The list goes on and on and on...

My 2c if you wanted to sensibly modify an NA motor...

[{AUDIOMAN}]

if the engine is in good condition its simple with 7k...the extra k is worh it
head work, port polish-1k

quad throttle bodys-1k if premade, less if u want a make a set yourself

aftermarket ecu-1.5k

full exhaust-1.5k

larger cam1.5k

leads, oil, plugs ect .5k

dont forget to upgrade you box aswell,

cheers josh

[dre111]

building a drag car is not always building a powerfull engine.what matters the most is how light the car is going to be.better spend your money wisely.
you'll get free Horsepower shaving the weight of the car and getting good suspension drag setup.

b18c1 is a good engine to start with. (square block,square chamber,etc... if this is the gsr or the vtir)
shave the head(how big will depend on your camshafts,i recommend b16b),get sk2 intake manifold with TB,camgears, jdm b18c5 exhaust manifold,b18c7 injectors,b18c7 fuel rail,b18c7 valvesprings and retainers, Port&Polish, Hondata tunning.

with the right set of engine mounts and a very sticky set of front tires you'll pull a very decent 1/4 run.

goodluck on your build

[Benson]

This is what we had on our b18c7 to achieve a 13.6@101MPH

DynoDave custom headers - $1.2k
2.5 inch exhaust with xforce CAT - $700
Hondata and tune - $1100
Intake - $300

We made 127kw with these bolt-on mods for a stock type R motor.

All these bolt on mods will set you back 2.5k. You got another 3.5k to play with. This is what i reckon you should get with the 3.5k

Ported head $1000 (dynodave)
Decent Coilovers $1200 ish
Good rubber - $300
ITR gearbox - $1500 ish (if you can find one)

You'll be set to run 13's all day long ;)

[Klayemore]

Just got my B20 build back from fatboyz39 and it's a monster :D haven't thrashed it completely as I have some steering issues to sort out, but it has great response and power.

[BlitZ]

all these comments on the car, its weight, or slapping in k20's absolutley ****ing usless.. i asked a question and there has been responses posted directly after mine that make valid points ( Barefoot, Fatboyz, and terrible ) as for the rest damn useless...

if i wanted to put a k20 in i would have..
if i wanted 40000kw from a turbo k24 i would have posted in the turbo section.. and as terrible said, obviously with this build its on a low budget and oviously aint going to run super times

i was just after some helpfull info on an NA build b series....

heeheheh buying a prebuilt motor is great advice and buying a k20 is bad ? =)

Most built NA b18 see about 140kw if they are lucky (not disney dyno in Sydney )...

u can extract almost the same power from am almost stock k20.


-------------------------------------------------------


skunk 2 pro 1/2 valve train - 1.8k
machine work on block (balance, hone, deck) - 1.5 to 2k
head work (port and polish and valve job) - 1k
rsmachine/pct piston - 500


Then u might need (assume u already got as u just said motor)
u have labour.
intake MF
TB,
clutch,
flywheel,
headers,
ECU,
tuning,

[fatboyz39]

Just got my B20 build back from fatboyz39 and it's a monster :D haven't thrashed it completely as I have some steering issues to sort out, but it has great response and power.


;););););) b20/vtec FTW....

[ZeForce]

;););););) b20/vtec FTW....

Yup, join the 2L VTEC club :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: lol

[patto]

This is what we had on our b18c7 to achieve a 13.6@101MPH

DynoDave custom headers - $1.2k
2.5 inch exhaust with xforce CAT - $700
Hondata and tune - $1100
Intake - $300

We made 127kw with these bolt-on mods for a stock type R motor.

All these bolt on mods will set you back 2.5k. You got another 3.5k to play with. This is what i reckon you should get with the 3.5k

Ported head $1000 (dynodave)
Decent Coilovers $1200 ish
Good rubber - $300
ITR gearbox - $1500 ish (if you can find one)

You'll be set to run 13's all day long ;)

What exhaust were you running? Brand name or no name? Much use in spending the extra coin on a brand name cat back? Or better to spend the money on headers and just whack on a generic branded cat back i.e xforce or something?

[fatboyz39]

What exhaust were you running? Brand name or no name? Much use in spending the extra coin on a brand name cat back? Or better to spend the money on headers and just whack on a generic branded cat back i.e xforce or something?

Yes brand name exhaust. Ill spend money on the headers as that will net power rather then catback.

[SeverAMV]

probably better to stick with brand name parts because you know they've put in the hours of R&D into making a part that actually makes power. honda's can be a bit touchy with na mods, with some exhausts actually causing a drop in power.

id say invest in some sticky rubber and decent suspension. bucketloads of power is useless unless you can get it down to the ground.

[EGBOY]

"heeheheh buying a prebuilt motor is great advice and buying a k20 is bad ? =)

Most built NA b18 see about 140kw if they are lucky (not disney dyno in Sydney )...

u can extract almost the same power from am almost stock k20."

yeah but my question was concerned with a b series engine! ive already got a k series vehicle ( k24/20 hybrid powered clubman)
my question regards building a mildly powered semi drag/weekend fun car that i can build on a low budget...

of course i'd recomend a k series to every1 but it doesn't always suit the application and or money restraints! as is the case here!

[thebob]

Dont buy austrailian if you want value for money.

[fatboyz39]

Dont buy austrailian if you want value for money.

What does that mean?

[Terrible One]

Hey EG boy, you got pics of this hybrid clubman? Would love to see it.

[SeverAMV]

What does that mean?

australia = high labour cost = high production cost
china = low labour cost = low production cost

and technically, its not racist cos im asian

[ginganggooly]

Farrrrk... all these tangents in this thread. I'm confused.

How in the flying fark did we get on to the subject of built in Australia vs built overseas??? :confused:

[grumpy rooster]

The old adage of "there's no replacement for displacement" rings true with any NA application when your after hp. :)

[DynoDave]

The old adage of "there's no replacement for displacement" rings true with any NA application when your after hp. :)
Weight is just as important in a ALLMTR car as well as chassis setup the G&J AH proves that.
Regards Dyno Dave

[grumpy rooster]

Very true Dave. I know all about that. ;) But in the context of the original question about building an NA engine more capacity never goes astray. (generally speaking. It may not apply EVERY time).

[SPEEDCORE]

The old adage of "there's no replacement for displacement" rings true with any NA application when your after hp. :)

There actually is... its called revolutions ;)

[barefootbonzai]

Farrrrk... all these tangents in this thread. I'm confused.

How in the flying fark did we get on to the subject of built in Australia vs built overseas??? :confused:

Don't worry, bobby thinks his getting valuve for money from buying a prebuilt motor from Japan, for example Jun.

I'm quite interested to see how it goes for the amount of money he spends.

[DynoDave]

Very true Dave. I know all about that. ;) But in the context of the original question about building an NA engine more capacity never goes astray. (generally speaking. It may not apply EVERY time).
The problem with most builds is guys chase power and dont really think about the rest of the COMBINATION and after spending 1000's of dollars and get very disappointed when there 140+kw engine only runs mid 14's when all it would have taken is to take weight out of there car and setup the chassis better and the times drop ALOT.This is why we started the B20 projects to show people that its not about power its about using the small amout of power the engine will make and work around that with setups.And the next in line project is a DC2R fitted with our V2 B20 bottomed and a STD ITR head,this car ran 13.66 with the STD B18C engine with boltons so now lets see what a B20 can do in it.
Regards Dyno Dave

[DynoDave]

Don't worry, bobby thinks his getting valuve for money from buying a prebuilt motor from Japan, for example Jun.

I'm quite interested to see how it goes for the amount of money he spends.
Yeah we forgot no one in this country can build engines hey :o
Regards Dyno Dave

[oHKSo]

Yeah we forgot no one in this country can build engines hey :o
Regards Dyno Dave

i heard theres a grey dc2 going around with a b20 built by Hi-Power Racing..
it got chopped by an ek with a basic b18cr setup

[grumpy rooster]

The problem with most builds is guys chase power and dont really think about the rest of the COMBINATION and after spending 1000's of dollars and get very disappointed when there 140+kw engine only runs mid 14's when all it would have taken is to take weight out of there car and setup the chassis better and the times drop ALOT.This is why we started the B20 projects to show people that its not about power its about using the small amout of power the engine will make and work around that with setups.And the next in line project is a DC2R fitted with our V2 B20 bottomed and a STD ITR head,this car ran 13.66 with the STD B18C engine with boltons so now lets see what a B20 can do in it.
Regards Dyno Dave

As you are well aware this is the same methodology Joe has applied. Basically standard engine in a light car = good times. But, in the end, how many NA 12sec Hondas are there in Oz with B16As? They just don't make enough torque to run the times. The Alcorns silver AH is the quickest I have seen and its 2sec behind the K20. From what I have read, both cars have been developed along the same lines. And all the cars at the top of the All Motor list are 2L or more.

In the end we are both saying that power isn't everything, but if your chasing ETs starting with a B16A isn't the best option in my opinion. :) Start with an engine that has decent displacement. ie around 2L.

[panda[cRx]]

australia = high labour cost = high production cost
china = low labour cost = low production cost

and technically, its not racist cos im asian

yes lets all go buy chinese built engines :confused:

i'm another one for the prebuilt DD fanclub. proven results and will save alot of messing around :thumbsup:

[Klayemore]

Well I have to see I'm pretty fkn happy about my Aus-built B20 VTEC by the ITR boys. w00t!!

[ginganggooly]

Don't worry, bobby thinks his getting valuve for money from buying a prebuilt motor from Japan, for example Jun.

I'm quite interested to see how it goes for the amount of money he spends.

Yeah, i guess anyone'd want to justify their purchase to everyone if they went and did something like that... :)

I think there will be a few aussie built motors ready to compare.

[barefootbonzai]

Yeah, i guess anyone'd want to justify their purchase to everyone if they went and did something like that... :)

I think there will be a few aussie built motors ready to compare.

Not unless a certain someone whats to step up to the plate, lol wink wink hint hint

[tinkerbell]

[SIZE=1]
my question regards building a mildly powered semi drag/weekend fun car that i can build on a low budget...


basic parts list:

B20B block
B18C5 head

[destrukshn]

i heard theres a grey dc2 going around with a b20 built by Hi-Power Racing..
it got chopped by an ek with a basic b18cr setup
er... ever thought it could also come down to driver?

[DynoDave]

Well I have to see I'm pretty fkn happy about my Aus-built B20 VTEC by the ITR boys. w00t!!
Gota love V1 B20Vtec OZ made headers+intake & tuned :honda:.
Regards Dyno Dave

[fatboyz39]

basic parts list:

B20B block
B18C5 head

Agree :):):)

[ALLMTR]

Second hand B20 $600
Second hand VTEC head $250
ITR intake $200
Toda c cams $800
Extractors $300
Microtec $1000
Shaved head and fly cut pistons $250

Should run low 12's

[DynoDave]

Second hand B20 $600
Second hand VTEC head $250
ITR intake $200
Toda c cams $800
Extractors $300
Microtec $1000
Shaved head and fly cut pistons $250

Should run low 12's
I think you have been out of the scene for too long there ALLMTR a S/H Vtec head will cost upto $1000 these days and you missed the Vtec conversion kit and tuning,but as most know the rest is correct.Our current V2.5 B20 Vtec bottomend cost just over $4000 to build and we used all OEM parts other than ARP rod bolts and Golden Eagle Vtec conversion kit and Cometic Head Gasket,OEM main bearings & Clevite rod bearings and also ARP Head stud kit and all other gaskets are OEM and was fitted with a new late model B18C oil and water pumps.Now using a complete STD ITR cyl head fitted with my headers and CAI tuned with Hondata S200 this setup made 123kw on Bel Garage's dyno and ran 13.4@101 mph in a DC2R and rev's to 8400rpm all day,very cheap power and its great fun to drive.
Regards Dyno Dave

[grumpy rooster]

So all up built, tuned and ready to go would be approx $7-8k?

[DynoDave]

So all up built, tuned and ready to go would be approx $7-8k?
Yeah and in a 700kgs car would run high 11's low 12's with the correct COMBINATION of chassis and gearing.
Regards Dyno Dave

[jeffske]

sell b18c and wack in k20 ;)..

wouldnt that require an engineer cert?

[ALLMTR]

It is hard for me to quote prices as I've been lucky enough to never pay retail. (BIG thanx to you Dave) My "kit" was about 65 bucks I think.

I was waiting for everyone to say, "No way will that combo run low 12's" but with NA the car is MUCH more important than the motor

[ALLMTR]

wouldnt that require an engineer cert?

That would be about the easiest/cheapest part of the conversion :D

[tinkerbell]

wouldnt that require an engineer cert?

so would a B20...

[BlitZ]

wouldnt that require an engineer cert?

and so does the aftermarket gearknob.. b18c should also need one as they didnt come in doch vtec.. and was it 1.6 std? im not sure

[mocchi]

NA Build Pointers:

1. Think your fuel supply, octane rating which you will use. (91, 95, 98, 100+)
Can you afford the fancy fuel to keep it up

2. Then your Compression rate.

3. Then how high do you want to rev it up.

In NA cars power comes from head, so its vital to maximize your head by:

- Improve swirl effect to compress more air in cylinder
(we would want max Volumetric efficiency)
- Lighter valve train weight (Lighter valve, springs, retainers)
- Intake and Exhaust modification to improve breathing efficiency.

Note on Exhaust mod:

-Long pipes lift low rpm power while short pipe lift top end.
-Pipe diameter fixes peak horsepower rpm.
-Tuned stepped headers (headers with diff. pipe diameters) & unequal length
pipes will improve overall hp & torque.
-To improve mid-range hp, the header tube roof can be lowered to line up with exhaust port, making the header tube floor lower by say.. 0.125in max from exhaust port.

Piston:
-Make sure your piston is smoothed out, no rough edge to improve flame travel.
-Maximize squish area on piston (if you can avoid high-top piston as it reduces flame travel)
-Match piston squish area and combustion chamber squish area

Bottom Block:
If thinking of reving it up high, strong high quality bolts(rod, head etc) is crucial. the con-rod is where highest pressure and stress accumulates (goes up and down continuously)

Building NA engines are hard. Lots of modifications will only add like 1-2% of max hp but if you want to suck every last drop of power... its all yours.

___bib.
squish: also called quench area, quench band. It increases the surface area of combustion area and actually cools or quenches the burning mixture around the edges of the combustion chamber. This assists in maintaining a steady (not violent) burn rate and offsets any tendency for high speed detonation or pre-ignition to occur.

detonation and pre-ignition are different.

detonation: a violent burning of fuel, almost like an explosion caused by the colliding flame fronts after the spark plug has fired. a piston damage by detonation will show signs of pitting on the crown (cracks and depressed area around it)

pre-ignition: self ignition of fuel caused by a hot spot within combustion chamber. symptoms on piston: if a hole is present on piston crown, it will have melted appearance.

Information were derived from a book called 'Four-Stroke Performance Tuning' by A. Graham Bell, 3rd edition.
Continued..

[ZeForce]

...It increases the surface area of combustion area...

You might want double check that statement, usually the aim is to minimise the surface area of the combustion chamber, ideally a spherical shape, to reduce the time it takes for the mixture to burn.

Optimising quench area and maximising combustion efficiency is one of the most crucial parts of building a good naturally aspirated engine, or any engine for that matter....

[mocchi]

well the book actually says increase, not decrease.

i will be trusting the book unless you have the knowledge or experience like the author does.

do you?

[tinkerbell]

sounds like a trade-off in terms of: detonation risk versus combustion efficency.

so you guys had better be talking "apples to apples" or you are wasting your typing time...

[ZeForce]

sounds like a trade-off in terms of: detonation risk versus combustion efficency.

so you guys had better be talking "apples to apples" or you are wasting your typing time...

There is no trade off, increasing combustion efficiency will prevent detonation

[SHW.70Y]

im absolutely loving this thread, its helping me out heaps in my build progress although i dont own a honda lol.
good luck with whatever you choose to do hope it works out for the best:D

[Illegal]

Who says a drag car needs to run 10's?

A consistent 13 second car can easily do well in dial your own bracket racing.

my stock jdm type-r 98 motor on hondata s100 and slicks in a eg hatch ran a 13.04