Serious & Strange DC5R Driveline problem

[RoNi_SiZe]

Hi fellow Integra/Honda owners!

Symptoms: STRONG shutter originating from the front of the car, BUT not felt in the steering wheel, only between 80kms --> 110kms!!
ONLY shudders under acceleration, stops when u back off, and in neutral. Happens b/w 80-110kms in any gear, any rev range, hard or soft acceleration.

Parts Replaced/Services done so far: New Tyres, New Shocks (BC Camber-Adjustable Coil-overs), Wheel balancing (Done by Bob Jane), New Engine mounts (2 were cracked, done by yarra honda), Reconditioned Driveshafts and custom balancing of Driveshafts (done by Ward-While in box hill)

Latest Suspected problem/s: The car has been @ Ward-While for about 3 weeks, he's checked all the driveline bits he can think of. The LSD has now been cleared of any damage also.

Any have any ideas!??! or suffered same problem?!?!
Anyone who cracks this is a mechanical genius, coz as I said, it's been through 5 mechs, including Doncaster and Yarra Honda!

Cheers
~ Roni

[[RSX 03]]

torque steer?

[aaronng]

;1266966']torque steer?

Not at 80-110.

[mugsee]

Does it shudder with a certain throttle position? ie. with cruising without throttle, with hard acceleration, with 10% throttle, etc.

Does it shudder if you neutral the car and roll during that period?

[Kiz_EG6]

Is it by any chance only in 3rd gear, going from the speed it is at??

Why were the engine mounts cracked in a car which is only a few years old?

I think you really need to have a look at the history of the car (i know that is probably difficult), maybe then you will get an idea of an accident or something which may have caused this!

[Drew]

Tried changing the disks and pads?

I seriously doubt it's the gearbox or LSD
That is generally a pretty common problem if the car has been driven hard; does the shudder get stronger, go away or doesn't change when you apply the brakes?

[RoNi_SiZe]

Thanks for the replies guys.

ONLY shudders under acceleration, stops when u back off, and in neutral. Happens b/w 80-110kms in any gear, any rev range, hard or soft acceleration. So by the time I take my foot off accel & brake, it's gone.

The mounts cracked, according to Ward While, b'coz the car was lowered, which cause the inner CV joint on the Driveshaft 2 lock up, causing vibration, which cracked the engine mounts. That's wat they think. Most probably coupled with hard driving.

I tried 2 get the history of the car, from the owner, Vicroads, and Honda Service records. None of these sources revealed any serious accidents or issues.

[Drew]

What if you're just cruising along?

[RoNi_SiZe]

Yeh in that speed range, just cruising along like tapping real light on the accelerator, it'll shudder significantly still, like if u were in the car, u can feel it shuddering. Of course the harder the accel the harder the shudder.

[Drew]

Swap the front and back wheels... then try swapping them diagonally and see if that changes anything at all
If you can get rims from someone else to try
Failing that change the disks and pads

Cheaper than pulling the gearbox to pieces

[T-onedc2]

^^^As above^^^ I'm thinking brakes rotors possibly, does it shudder under firm to hard braking also?

[i-vtec]

Can it possibly be the wheel bearing failing ?
I had a wheel bearing gone in the front left on a different vehicle and it would make a shuddering and eerie deep noise from 80km plus. Maybe try a suspension specialist and have them check it out. hope you get it sorted out

[Mst_Mugen]

huhu!! get this man... i think i had the same problem as u.... it wasnt soo much to do with the speed i was travelling or percentage of open throttle... but more soo the rpm.... i found that if i was traveling too low in the rpm range for a certain gear, i would get this strong shudder towards the front of the car which is only heard, not felt... (ie, traveling 70km/h in 6th gear at 3-5k RPM)

REASON: 3 weeks before i started noticing the shudder, i was replacing my windscreen washers back to OEM and i accidently drop the plastic washer (helps hold the windscreen washer in place from the underside of the bonnet) into the void within bonnet.... if u look at the underside of the bonnet, u can see that there is a void created by the exterior of the bonnet and a sheet of wheathering material located on the underside... after removing the wheathering material and slowly fishing out the plastic washer... i took it for a test drive, and the problem was fixed :thumbsup:

hope this helps... its probably got nothing at all to do with ur problem, but just incase..... haha, but i guess if this is ur problem as well, then i feel sorry for the 5 mechanics youve been to......

[qstoria]

is it always definantley at exactly 80kmph - 110kmph? by that i mean as soon as u hit 80 it begins and as soon as u hit 111kmph it stops? how much does it vary?

if it is exactly between these speeds EVERYTIME then i would suggest trying another ECU. reason is, it is the only thing on your car that could cause such an accurate error regardless of other inputs.

ie. ECU may have a fault that is triggered when vehicle speed reaches 80 and is then cleared when it reaches > 110 and normal driving can continue.

[HondaTechy]

well have you tried or swapped new rims and tyres from a good car?its either the tyre or in the driveline.even though they have been balanced they might just be shit tyres.if that dosent fix it you will need to try known good driveshafts if its been lowered now or prevously it stuffs the inside of the joints.you have to try known good parts to get to the bottom of cause.it cant be in the box because it wouldnt happpen in all gears.ive had these problems before and dont trust "reconditioned".

[16CTEG]

try in different gears at that speed! if it's the same with all gears might not be a gearbox prob, if it is for different gears could be gearbox, you say that you've doen the driveshafts, tyres wheel balancing, soo most liekly not that! and i dont think it'd be brake pads or rotors, as your not braking! quite possibly a gearbox problem IMO, maybe a Diff problem!

[RoNi_SiZe]

Thanks for all the replies again guys.

Yeh, look between 80-110kms, it happens in any gear (3/4/5/6 anyway) any rev range. Of Course the shudder is harder during hard accel and high revs, but it can be felt significantly under the lightest acceleration during cruising too.

Yes, I will try a new set of rims on the beast, maybe it's a buckled rim & bob jane were too stupid too see that, wouldn't b surprised. That's a good one. Thanks Hondatechy!

Ummm Qstoria, yes the shudder does kick in very consistenly everytime, maybe not EXACTLY @ 80.00 and 110.00 but very close. But the shudder is too strong to be a ECU fault I think, it's gotta be something locking up, something bent, etc.

I will speak to my mech tomz, w/ some suggestions abt the rims, he's checking the diff & gearbox soon anyway.

Cheers

[timofytit]

Check the Compression in the engine too. Its not certain, but it will cause a shudder in the front.

[destrukshn]

yeah it will cause a shudder, but not at at speeds, it's more rpm ranges i would assume.

[didz]

Mate its gotta be wheel vibration and Bob Jane? Man my dad went there to get his wheel allignment done and it was worse than when he went there. They sat there and tried to tell him that directional tyres make your car pull to one side. They then proceeded to tell him that engine mounts caused it and his driveshafts. After much arguments, they finally fixed it and its fine again. Take it to another tyre fitter and also try different wheels. My car does a similar thing with my stock wheels on it. With aftermarket ones its fine.

[yfin]

Mate its gotta be wheel vibration and Bob Jane?

Hmmm, not sure about that. He said he can't feel the shudder in the steering wheel which makes me think it isn't tyres or rims.

Is it possible the engine is missfiring? But i think that would show up on Honda diagnostics? When was the last time the plugs were changed.

[Drew]

Well depending on how bad it is; anything at the front would normally be felt through the steering wheel as well...

I had similar instances that was cause by the brakes; I know it sounds odd but after all they are still attached to your wheels/drive line... Just depends on how bad the shudder is

What size are the rotors? I may have a good set spare that you could try

[45SET]

any other weird noises or just shutter?

does the car move around on the road/turn to one side/jerk around?

How many k's on the car?

Hows the clutch?

Does it do anything else a little weird at ANY other speed/RPM?

what mods have you got?

I'm currently having some simular problems with my car... cept i can't get up to 80... cause i get the shutter when the car isnt moving. I have replaced the clutch. The clutch was down to the metal, and had cracked (damn auto adjusting clutch's) and the clutch bearing was also FARKED.

I havn't seen the car since it was fixed, but my mechanic is telling me something else is still making a noise.... they think LSD... but if its something else in the gearbox... it's cheaper to just buy a new one..... and sorry to say... but a brand new gearbox from honda is.... 6k.... so 2nd hand is the way to go... just have to find one.

I'm going into the workshop to check it out tomorrow (test drive and stuff) I'll tell you if i get any info

Good luck

[IZY-10]

Doesn't sound like it is a wheel balance problem as it would be shuttering even when you are not on the throttle. Maybe you have warped disks. Its a long shot though

[RoNi_SiZe]

Compression! Could b. Thanks Timo.

Thanks 45set, yeh tell me how it goes! Hopefully it goes betta than mine!

My Shutter is silent though. Doesn't really trail off 2 one side when it does it, just keeps goin straight & relatively steady actualli.

At any other speed, anything else weird? No. Can't say there is.

2002 Model, 102,000kms when I bought it, about 109,000kms now. Clutch is in excellent condition (Stock).

[VTECACCORD]

Have you tried putting it on the lift, and trying to get the car up to speed to see if you can see if the wheels do anything funny ?

As in actually put it on the hoist and pretend your driving it.

[EL_DC5]

LSD man. the only reason i say this. is because there have been no reports on non LSD vehicles

[RoNi_SiZe]

I haven't put the car on a hoist myself. But my mechanic did it initially when I broguht the car in, & it didn't do it. So he was like "WTF?".

[integrity]

you should just check if its something simple like a wheel align or wheel balance as this causes shaking

[EL_DC5]

you should just check if its something simple like a wheel align or wheel balance as this causes shaking

did you read the previous posts??

[45SET]

yeah man.. if the shutter is anything like mine... its the LSD.

I have replaced the clutch and its still the same... so yeah

[maracer]

Just subscribed to see what the out come is. Good luck.

[EL_DC5]

Get an ATS Carbon LSD(the real LSD)

[black itr]

I had a similar problem caused by a few hard luanches at WSID... turns out it was a bearing in the gearbox... sorry i can't remember any more than that.

My car use to shudder at high speeds like yours but it was really bad with light throttle.

Hope this helps...

p.s. the car is stock and had about 80xxx kms at the time.

[kendc5r]

sry to bring this topic back up, but i cant help but to ask if the problem has been fixed. i was down at wardwhile motors a couple weeks back, and it must be your car on the hoist.

i was at wardwhile motors myself checking out a similar problem on my car.

i have done all the wheel alignment/tyres/engine mounts and the issue is still there.

however, my slight 'knocking/clunking" sound comes in thru the gears but only occurs when accelerating and decelerating.

i was told by graham thats its:

gearbox bearings
and lsd

i havent been down to wardwhile to get them replaced as yet, will do so in the near future.

roni, if u've alrdy fixed the issue, it'll be great if you can share your experience... or i hope this info has helped.

[JasonGilholme]

my old man had a similiar problem.

He had to replace some engine mounts as well which helped the problem but didn't cure it.

I'm thinking its got something to do with chassis/suspension. Engine mounts, bushes, control arms etc. Have a look over all those parts.

it wont be anything RPM related (engine, gear set). its speed related (diff, drive shaft, CV etc - as well as chassis.)

[RoNi_SiZe]

Hey guys, thanks for the on going interest.

Update: I've mentioned all the suggestions u guys made about the rotors, bent discs, buckled rims, and anything & everything 2 do w/ driveline/suspension parts, such as control arms & bearings, CV joints etc.

Grahem from Ward While Insists that he has checked every single component of the driveline/suspension.

He now thinks it's gearbox and/or diff too. Work on taking the gearbox and diff out & apart has begun today apparently, but 'today' probably means next week! They are stallers!

peace y'all!

[RoNi_SiZe]

btw Kendc5, Grahem was telling me about your car too, he said he had another dc5r with pretty much the same problem, I think he said he actualli swapped some parts between our cars 2 test if components were f*cked or wateva. I'll keep u posted on progress. Hopefully ur having more luck than me

[kendc5r]

a... so it was u at wardwhiles roni ;)

well, grahem didnt swap any parts that day, cos i was there the whole time checking out the car with him.

his suppose to get back to me with some quotes, but i still havent heard from him as yet - so agreed - his a staller lol.

but they said theyre taking the diff and gearbox out atm, its a start :thumbsup: hopefully things will brighten up and the source of the problem will be found...

good luck with it, and plz keep us posted.

[DC5TYPER]

LoL.

Graham aint a staller. There is too many cars coming in and out of Ward-While. I spoke to him last week and they need a bigger place. The guy is going flat out and sometime he is there till 10pm doing invoices and organising his busy ass business.

My CRX is there also getting fixed up. Ill be waiting a while like you blokes. Roni saw your blue DC5R there. And it was on the hoist. I think it was monday.

:p:p:p

[45SET]

keep us (me) posted once the gearbox is apart... thanks

[RoNi_SiZe]

Lolz ok ok, fair call 'dc5typeR', he's seems like a decent dude, but a staller either way!!

Yeh wheneva I drop in, I see this CRX there, must b urs, it looks worked!!

Anyway, called him today, said all the parts has arrived in his shop for gearbox, so he is either gonna rip it out in the afternoon or Tuesday, & replace any damaged parts, if any.

Keep u guys posted.

[kendc5r]

good stuff roni.

please keep us posted with your progress on the car, and what the problem actually is.

ill be taking my car in soon.... :(

[RoNi_SiZe]

UPDATE: Last Thursday, WW said he's gonna rip out the gearbox 2 check all the bits, now it's 10 days later, he hasn't even started, coz he's spent the whole week + 2 days poking at diff, which is still bolted on (but driveshafts out) to see if he could feel any play inside, so if he can, he dusn't have 2 take out the gear box!!

That's stalling!

[kendc5r]

*sigh*

i hope things get sorted out soon.

plz keep updating as WW get on with it...

[RoNi_SiZe]

Hey guys, sorry I haven't updated in a while, but yeh, just been busy/frustrated.

About 2 weeks ago, I make my daily call to Grahem & Ward While & he said he formally gives up, has no idea. So I pick the car up after 7 weeks, he only charged me $145 for one reconditioned driveshaft (Right hand side).

The Car was transferred to REVZONE in Nunawading. They are good guys there, have like 4 mechanics, and 1/3 of the cars as Ward While, so they got heaps more spare time, & it was quick.

The guys ripped out the Driveshafts (ripped open the driveshafts too) and Hubs, identified that the wheel bearings MIGHT be stuffed, they're not sure, cause they aren't that bad. But one thing that is DEFINATELY stuffed is the LEFT HAND SIDE Outer CV Joint, Absolutely locked up. it's all f*cked.

So seriously, I don't recommend Ward While now, they had my car for 7 weeks, and they didn't spot this fully f*cked up joint.

I'll keep y'all up to date on whether the new wheel bearings/ Left driveshaft fixes the problem. Cheers

~ RoNi '07

[jords]

You must be relieved to be getting somewhere, this has been going on for months.

I hope they fix it for you dude.

[mugsee]

Has your car been previously lowered?

[RoNi_SiZe]

Yeh the car has been lowered like a bitch.

Apparently coz the CV are @ a constant angle, they are more prone 2 locking up. & if they have been locked up for too long, they just get more F*cked up until it gets to a point where they r beyond repair. That's what happened to my Passenger side one. The Driver's side one has been reconditioned & it's OK.

[45SET]

hmm... well after reading that... i guess my problem isn't going to be related. awesome.

[mugsee]

Yeh the car has been lowered like a bitch.

Apparently coz the CV are @ a constant angle, they are more prone 2 locking up. & if they have been locked up for too long, they just get more F*cked up until it gets to a point where they r beyond repair. That's what happened to my Passenger side one. The Driver's side one has been reconditioned & it's OK.

Exactly what I was thinking. Don't know why I didn't think of this earlier though. :(

Some people choose to invert the left and right steering arms so that the arms are on a lower (flatter) angle, however this apparently screws up the CV boots. Either way, it doesn't look like its a HUGE fix and shouldn't cost you much to get back onto the road.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[EL_DC5]

what would be the maximum recommended lowered hight to avoid this problem??

try to understand what im asking

[mugsee]

before your steering arms start pointing upwards (ie. the wrong way).

[RoNi_SiZe]

Update: The Car is 100% Fixed up!! Drives Beautifully!

Problems: Outer CV joint on Passenger side Driveshaft completely stuffed, beyond repair. Both Wheel bearings damaged. Driver's side Driveshaft end (where it connects to Diff) damaged.

Revzone's Timing: 2 days inspection, 1 day disassembly, 1 day waiting time for parts, 1 day installation & testing. Finished.
Compared to Ward While, 7 weeks inspection... problem not identified.

Thanks all for support & on going interest!

Peace!!
~ RoNi '07

[EK4R]

densetsuuUuUoOooOOOOO........

[kendc5r]

hey roni, glad to hear ur cars been fixed...!!!

i was down at revzone and was talking to justin yesterday and will be making a booking with em and getting my car fixed too :)

thanks for the updates... hope ur enjoying ur car like the way it should be.... :D

[jko2]

That worries me about WW as I use them quite a bit, always coming out with mixed feelings, but G seems like such an honest bloke.

[RoNi_SiZe]

He's an honest bloke, but like, I think he's genuinely too busy, he's always @ the phone, let's his apprentices to all the work.

I reckon he missed the problem w/ my drive shaft coz he asked his apprentices 2 take it out so he could inspect the LSD & all the other bits. But then then never checked the actual driveshafts themselves.

One guy w/ rookies runnign the show isn't cool, and he's got heaps of cars waiting to be done.

Revzone has like 3-4 Trained up Mechs, & they only like 1/3 of the cars waiting compared to Wardwhile.

[LiquiDSound]

Now that your Car is fixed..... King L.... =D

[markmill]

Update: The Car is 100% Fixed up!! Drives Beautifully!

Problems: Outer CV joint on Passenger side Driveshaft completely stuffed, beyond repair. Both Wheel bearings damaged. Driver's side Driveshaft end (where it connects to Diff) damaged.

Revzone's Timing: 2 days inspection, 1 day disassembly, 1 day waiting time for parts, 1 day installation & testing. Finished.
Compared to Ward While, 7 weeks inspection... problem not identified.

Thanks all for support & on going interest!

Peace!!
~ RoNi '07

Seems I might have a similar problem with my DC5R, pretty much exact same symptoms! Can I ask what sort of price range it cost you to get all this repair work done? I am bracing myself for an very expensive repair bill :(