Lsd

[chockz]

Hi,

don't know where this post should be ..but anyhow,
i'm thinking of putting LSD in my car...Civic EG with a EK VTI-R gear box - i think. (a very low final drive).

anyway, has anyone done it before? and how did it go?

thanks

chock

[ZeForce]

I just purchased a LSD for my B16a gearbox, should be arriving next week. I will let you know how I go installing it....

[intacivic16v]

Mate i've just put a Cusco LSD in my 1990 B16A, was quite easy if you know what you are doing, I had a mate i've mine showing me what to do (thanks Luke). There is two types of LSD's for B16A's. The cable clutch and hydrolic gear box's do not swap over, the LSD's are different.
As far as i know the EK and EG swap over. If you are getting a hole EK type R box it should be fine. Luke the guy that helped me with mine has done it to his i'm pretty sure. He has a JDM Type R box in his for sure, i'm not 100% sure if it was out of a civic type r or a integra type r though?

Mate send a mesage to hondaboy5330 (he is a member) he will know the answer for sure.

[ZeForce]

The LSDs come with two different bolt spacings for the final drive ring gear. The B16a gearbox has the same bolt spacing as the GS/LS/RS/SE Integra B18a/b gearbox. However, the VTiR Integra ("GSR" in the states) B18c gearbox use the same bolt pattern as the Type R gearboxes.

[e240]

Hi,

don't know where this post should be ..but anyhow,
i'm thinking of putting LSD in my car...Civic EG with a EK VTI-R gear box - i think. (a very low final drive).

anyway, has anyone done it before? and how did it go?

thanks

chock


Best thing you can do for a FWD.

Unless you plan to track regularly, go for a Torsen type LSD (or stock ITR)
Less Maintenance and you can use normal gear oils....

[90LAN]

i have a cusco lsd 2 way mechanical lsd man works good
but the oil is a killer $50/lt
very good upgrade

[thebob]

Cusco LSD are amazing!

[czy_sol87]

^^^are u guys able to elaborate on the above comments???
what sort of maintenance is required???
why do u need to use a special gear oil to use the lsd??

[aimre]

i got a torsen/helical diff in my D16, can definatly notice it when cornering

[SPEEDCORE]

^^^are u guys able to elaborate on the above comments???
what sort of maintenance is required???
why do u need to use a special gear oil to use the lsd??

Clutch type LSDs need specific oil because of the friction needed between the plates.

Maintenance on these is more regular oil changes, and rebuilds (replace worn clutch plates). As the clutch plates start to wear... the effectiveness of the "lock" starts to diminish.

Torsen/helical..... no maintenance, no special oil needed, don't wear out.

The two types also work totally different.

Clutch type: Locks the wheels.

Torsen/helical: Constantly distributing torque..... wheels are never really locked equally like the clutch type.

SPEEDCORE's suggestions:
Torsen/Helical = for street + weekend track warrior
Clutch type = for dedicated track car.

[czy_sol87]

Clutch type LSDs need specific oil because of the friction needed between the plates.

Maintenance on these is more regular oil changes, and rebuilds (replace worn clutch plates). As the clutch plates start to wear... the effectiveness of the "lock" starts to diminish.

Torsen/helical..... no maintenance, no special oil needed, don't wear out.

The two types also work totally different.

Clutch type: Locks the wheels.

Torsen/helical: Constantly distributing torque..... wheels are never really locked equally like the clutch type.

SPEEDCORE's suggestions:
Torsen/Helical = for street + weekend track warrior
Clutch type = for dedicated track car.

ahhh thanks mate been waitin for an answer for a while now

+rep:thumbsup:

[aimre]

Clutch type LSDs need specific oil because of the friction needed between the plates.

Maintenance on these is more regular oil changes, and rebuilds (replace worn clutch plates). As the clutch plates start to wear... the effectiveness of the "lock" starts to diminish.

Torsen/helical..... no maintenance, no special oil needed, don't wear out.

The two types also work totally different.

Clutch type: Locks the wheels.

Torsen/helical: Constantly distributing torque..... wheels are never really locked equally like the clutch type.

SPEEDCORE's suggestions:
Torsen/Helical = for street + weekend track warrior
Clutch type = for dedicated track car.

Supposedly, on a FWD the clutch type can promote understeer and a torsen is almost always preferd.

Only problem with helical is thats its actually a tourqe multiplier.

eg

Left wheels slipping and recieves 5nm or tourqe, the diff will give the right wheel 5nm x 5 = 25 nm.

but say the slipping wheels is the the air, its needs 0nm tourqe to slip and 0x5 = 0, so the other wheel will get nothing.

In other words, with one wheel in the air or on a very slipery surface, the diff will act like an open diff.

I belive this is remedied by Quaif with a pre loaded diff

hope i made sense

[ZeForce]

I just purchased a LSD for my B16a gearbox, should be arriving next week. I will let you know how I go installing it....

Ok I finally got my LSD installed. It's not overly difficult to do, however you really need to know what your dealing with coz it's pretty easy to damage parts, such as bearings, etc. If you are really keen to DIY then I would recommend buying Omnimans DVD which has about 2hrs worth showing how to swap LSD, final drive, gear ratios and new synchros as well as lots of little hints and tips :thumbsup:

[narchi]

quick questions. I tried to fit mine yesterday. The drive gear was to high due to the offset on the kaaz lsd. The lsd is for my car but i cant get it to fit. Casing wont even close. Any ideas.

[ZeForce]

Do have any pics?

[narchi]

Nope. Basically the gear the drive gear moves is rubbing across the tops of the bolts and the drive gear. So its not moving smoothly. the standard diff mount is lower for the drive gear opposed to the kaaz. I wasnt told i needed to buy anything else so i havent but it just wont fit in

[ZeForce]

Are you positive you mounted the ring gear correctly?

[narchi]

ring gear?
I put it everything back the way i took it out.
The drive gear was definitely put on correctly coz that is the only way that it could fit.

[ZeForce]

You have PM

[SPEEDCORE]

Supposedly, on a FWD the clutch type can promote understeer and a torsen is almost always preferd.


Clutch style is prefered on the track..... just a pain to live with in a DD for your average joe. Then again.... your average joe these days wants to mod their car yet retain the factory NVH :rolleyes:

As for understeer.....three things.... throttle controll, suspension geometry and adjust driving lines is your friend. People who complain about understeer after an LSD install need to look at the whole picture instead of randomly throwing parts on their car in an attempt to inprove its performance.

[panda[cRx]]

i'm currently having my quaife lsd fitted on a b18c (vtir) hydro box.
has anyone had any probs with the ring bearing not fitting correctly?
these normally need to be pressed on but mine seems a lil loose.
atm i'm thinking of just sourcing a suitable bearing to fit but i was wondering if anyone else has experienced this in the past and what they did to rectify it?

[SPEEDCORE]

That's bizzare :confused:
As far as I know our quaife just used the OEM spec carrier bearings.

From memory on the casing of the Quaife there was a number laser etched into it. I would cross check that with the one for your box. For the bearing to slip right on without using a press is not right.

[panda[cRx]]

For the bearing to slip right on without using a press is not right.

hence me asking here lol

the box is brand new from honda and the lsd was brand new unused from an ozhonda member.

i dropped it off with a honda transmission specialist here in melb, when i get it back i'll suss out the number. it's not far out in diameter, but just far enough for it to not need to be pressed on

[panda[cRx]]

Will the B16 differential (60.309.160) work in a B18C transmission?
The B16 and the B18 differentials are very similar. One of the main differences is that the B18 differential has a slightly larger ring gear flange diameter and bolt PCD. If you want to use a B16 differential in a B18 gearbox, you will need to bring over the ring gear (and pinion shaft) from the B16. Expert technicians are recommended for swaps of this type.was about to email quaife then found this....

[SPEEDCORE]

Yeah that's well known..... quite a few people buying ITR LSDs to throw into B16 boxes have been caught out.
Still does not explain your bearing issue.

[intacivic16v]

I've had two Lsd's in my car, one Cusco LSD with my D series engine, and one with Cusco LSD with my new B series engine. I havn't really had the chance to really get into the B series one yet, but as far as under steer when with the D series one, it was great. There was hardly any understeer at all, Once i was able to get used to the diff and adjust my driving style it was unreal. On the track i could just throw it into a corner and once i started to accelerate out of the corner it would just grab the inside wheel and pull me into and through the corner. It even got to the point where it was so pradicatble that i could go hard into a corner slam the hand brake on at about 60km/h, slide the arse around to about 70 dregrees then light up the front and slide out of the corner with all 4 tyres smoking.

As far as Torrson (may be wrong spelling) style LSd's go i have been warned off them in the past. apparently if you lift a wheel while accellerating you can damage them as well as reducing the traction out of that corner

[panda[cRx]]

Yeah that's well known..... quite a few people buying ITR LSDs to throw into B16 boxes have been caught out.
Still does not explain your bearing issue.

i've sent an email to quaife, i'll try uploading a vid from my phone later to show what i mean

[panda[cRx]]

;1352126']i've sent an email to quaife, i'll try uploading a vid from my phone later to show what i mean

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BKTK44owEI

:confused:


Will the B16 differential (60.309.160) work in a B18C transmission?[/COLOR]
The B16 and the B18 differentials are very similar. One of the main differences is that the B18 differential has a slightly larger ring gear flange diameter and bolt PCD. If you want to use a B16 differential in a B18 gearbox, you will need to bring over the ring gear (and pinion shaft) from the B16. Expert technicians are recommended for swaps of this type.]

does this affect my prob as seen in the vid?

[SPEEDCORE]

No because they are talking about a totally different thing. They talking about the bolt hole pattern on the crown wheel being different between B16 and B18 diffs.

I can see from the vid that you got the crown wheel already on there so that eliminates that issue. You seem to have the right diff.

Now... on the surface where the bearing is usually pressed on, does it look like there is material missing? I don't think someone would have taken off material in the past but just asking.

Get a set of venier calipers if you got some handy and just do a bit of measuring of the ID of that bearing at a few points to see if its out of round or something.

Are you reusing this bearing? Like did you pull it off the open diff from your new box? I would take the bearing you got and the diff.... go to a bearing shop and get them to grab a new one and see if you got the same problem.

If it still slips on easily like it does now with a new bearing you should be able to get a bearing with a fraction smaller ID.

[panda[cRx]]

yeh that's what i was planning to do, but the faq i quoted from the quaife site confused me a lil as i don't have much experience with diffs/trans.

the bearing would have been from the box, as it was brand new unused from honda.


thx for the post. i'd PQ ya if they hadn't disabled it for now (-_-)

[barefootbonzai]

If all else fails, we'll buy your LSD asap lol.

[SPEEDCORE]

Ok..... see how you slipped the ring gear/crown wheel on the diff and the holes line up hunky dory for you to put the bolts in?

Well on a B16 ring gear the holes are in different locations and thus do not line up on a B18 diff.

Think of it in other terms as trying to put a 4x100 PDC wheel over a 4 x 114 PDC hub..... its close especially if you where comparing them side by side..... but once you try to slip it on, no way its going to work.

BTW... I'm sure you where in the process of doing it while recording the video, but don't forget the speedo drive cog thingy before putting that bearing on :)

[panda[cRx]]

Ok..... see how you slipped the ring gear/crown wheel on the diff and the holes line up hunky dory for you to put the bolts in?

Well on a B16 ring gear the holes are in different locations and thus do not line up on a B18 diff.

Think of it in other terms as trying to put a 4x100 PDC wheel over a 4 x 114 PDC hub..... its close especially if you where comparing them side by side..... but once you try to slip it on, no way its going to work.

BTW... I'm sure you where in the process of doing it while recording the video, but don't forget the speedo drive cog thingy before putting that bearing on :)

lol i work at a dealer, one of the senior tech's was doing it.
while he's an awesome tech that really knows his shit, but like many tech's at dealer's he wasn't too sure about interchanging of compatible parts between different models and aftermarket performance stuff etc
(as unless they do performance work on the side all they do is OEM all day)

[EK4 Phil]

Back to the original question of this post.

I have a Kaaz LSD installed about 4 days ago. Done by a gearbox pro.
At the moment I still have to run the LSD in as it needs to wear in the clutch of the LSD. Which I am driven figure 8's and taking it easy for 1000km's to I don't break anything. But in a week or so I'll be able to suggest a bit more on how it is going.

Just one question Which brands make clutch type LSD's and which brands make Helical? i.e.
Clutch LSD: Kaaz,
Helical: OEM Type R,

[SPEEDCORE]

That figure 8 thing is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard of and I still don't know why kaaz still insists on it. It is not needed.

Drive it slow and gentle for around 500kms then change oil. Let everything warm up before getting up on it, its not just engines that snap when cold.

I broke in my cusco in the 86 by putting the rear on jack stands, in gear, and just kept a constant speed with the accelerator for around 10-15 mins, then went for a drive, changed oil, cleaned "mud" off drain bolt and the thing locks perfectly even after 12 months of ......"fun".

[intacivic16v]

Fella's i've just put a B16A cable clutch Cusco 1.5way LSD into a B18 cable clutch gear box.. and its fine, the only thing that i don't like about it is the gear ratios in the B18 box hehehe

And as far as wearing them in, another good idea is to drive down a road that has slight up and down hill sections. Keep the car in say 4th gear at around 60-70 km and just drive down the road. the slight up hill sections will load the diff up and it will have time to unload on the down hill run, then load up again on the up hill. Thats was the Endless dealer that sold me the right diff oil for the cusco diff.

[intacivic16v]

As far as i know mate it is a very good idea to be doing the figure 8's, there are other ways of doing it put that has worked for my father with a TRD 2 ways sprinter LSD, and it has worked well for both my Cusco LSD's.


That figure 8 thing is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard of and I still don't know why kaaz still insists on it. It is not needed.

Drive it slow and gentle for around 500kms then change oil. Let everything warm up before getting up on it, its not just engines that snap when cold.

I broke in my cusco in the 86 by putting the rear on jack stands, in gear, and just kept a constant speed with the accelerator for around 10-15 mins, then went for a drive, changed oil, cleaned "mud" off drain bolt and the thing locks perfectly even after 12 months of ......"fun".

[EK4 Phil]

The 86 (AE86) I believe is a rear wheel drive right. Isn't it then a non Clutch type LSD??

[SPEEDCORE]

The drive of the wheels does not stipulate what the type of LSD can/can't be used.

The OEM JDM AE86 was a 1 way clutch style. The Kaaz, Cusco, TRD units for the 86 mentioned above are clutch style also, available in 1.5 or 2 way. The Kaaz and Cusco are better than TRD item.

To answer your previous question pertaining to honda and worth mentioning:
Clutch pack style brands: Kaaz, cusco, Tomei (rebadged KAAZ)
Helical: ITR OEM, Quaife, OBX (quaife knock off)

[EK4 Phil]

Alright that answered that Question. Sweet thanks mate.

[intacivic16v]

spot on the money speedcore with the AE86 diffs mate.