Pros/Cons of 5 Lug Conversion

[Leprechaun]

Hi guys

Just wanting to know the reasons one would complete a 5 stud/lug conversion? Is it just to have Type R rims, or for the bigger brakes? If i recall it costs like $2K doesn't it? With that sort of money couldn't you go all out on a really good set of brakes? I have no idea - thus the questions.. Cheers

[riceball]

It just looks better. A 5 lug setup will cost you 1k if you are installing it urself.

[Zilli]

pro's

Bigger brakes
More choice in wheels

cons

cost
Effort

[Zdster]

pro's

Bigger brakes
More choice in wheels

cons

cost
Effort

What do you mean bigger brakes? You can get huge rotors to fit on a four lug setup.

Otherwise, everything else = :thumbsup:

[honda_ek4]

don't mean to hijack the thread, but are we able to get the type R brake setup onto a 4 lug setup with the right wheels?

[Limbo]

5 stud is looks and it does help with braking slightly.
With 2k you could get larger discs, & better Pads, larger brake booster and maybe even fit in better calipers. Much better than a 5 lug conversion.
5 lug conversion is usually between $1,200 to 1,500 depending who's selling. $2k i'm assuming your getting someone else to fit?

[Zdster]

don't mean to hijack the thread, but are we able to get the type R brake setup onto a 4 lug setup with the right wheels?

Its one of those, pretty much anything is possible if you have time and money sort of questions/answers, but in that instance you are probably just better doing the swap. That being said it is much more convenient to upgrade to integra brakes (due to parts availability and cost).

[fatboyz39]

There just for bling and looks. Yes they do help braking. Need to also upgrade master cylinder and booster to aid in the larger pistons/calipers.

Also they add a fair bit of rotational mass, thats the downside of it.

[Zilli]

What do you mean bigger brakes? You can get huge rotors to fit on a four lug setup.

Otherwise, everything else = :thumbsup:

Sorry, i should've been clearer... having five lugs VS 4 lugs (my understanding) gives you a much stronger mounting point, which helps to deal with cope with the strain of a powerful braking system wanting to rip them out of there place when stopping the inertia of the wheel.

This is my understanding of it, i may be wrong... but then commodores (heavy) and trucks would be working on a 4 lug system too...

The two factors which will increase the strain on the lugs on your hub are an increase it weight, or increase in braking force...

correct me if im wrong

[hinezz]

5stud = JDM bling ;) lol
Also Zilli's rite,:thumbsup: if ur chasing bigger brakes and huge power (like me,lol) 5stud conversion shud be a need.
well thats what my mechanic recommended to me.

[Zdster]

This is my understanding of it, i may be wrong... but then commodores (heavy) and trucks would be working on a 4 lug system too...

The two factors which will increase the strain on the lugs on your hub are an increase it weight, or increase in braking force...

correct me if im wrong

No, you are spot on.

[Zilli]

So in essence, have a 5 lug setup will allow you to more efficiently and reliably increase the power of your braking system through bigger dics and calipers...

[Zdster]

So in essence, have a 5 lug setup will allow you to more efficiently and reliably increase the power of your braking system through bigger dics and calipers...

Well I dont think the lug setup allows that as opposed to the size of the disc, caliper, mc etc.

[souperman]

con: extra time when changing the wheel

[shadou]

con: extra time when changing the wheel

hm? not to be mean but if you are referring to 'extra time' as mounting the wheel on to the stud then wtf?

[souperman]

i mean there's one extra wheel nut to undo and redo

[Zdster]

i mean there's one extra wheel nut to undo and redo

If that is your biggest concern then I wouldnt be:
a) getting a five lug conversion
b) doing it yourself like you suggested in the other thread.

[ekhybrid]

more hub strength with 5 over 4 stud

[e240]

Sorry, i should've been clearer... having five lugs VS 4 lugs (my understanding) gives you a much stronger mounting point, which helps to deal with cope with the strain of a powerful braking system wanting to rip them out of there place when stopping the inertia of the wheel.


In a car which pushes only 100kw? LOL :p

[90LAN]

OEM QUALITY !!!!!!
straight fit, braking is shit load better if u upgrade the bmc and booster but with new after market pads it is the best bang for buck swap u can do
if u want to go further than that u can get NSX calipers that bolt onto the five lug
im running 5 lug on my eg !!! thats how i know
plus u can get the best jdm bling wheels to suit easier !

[aimre]

Sorry, i should've been clearer... having five lugs VS 4 lugs (my understanding) gives you a much stronger mounting point, which helps to deal with cope with the strain of a powerful braking system wanting to rip them out of there place when stopping the inertia of the wheel.

This is my understanding of it, i may be wrong... but then commodores (heavy) and trucks would be working on a 4 lug system too...

The two factors which will increase the strain on the lugs on your hub are an increase it weight, or increase in braking force...

correct me if im wrong

Ok, i will

A 10mm Mild Steel bolt, can take 1 tonne or shear stress.

Now, factory ones are 12mm, so there shear stess would be more. And u got 4 of them. So thats more 4 tonne shear stress each wheel can take.

And our studs are probably a material better than mild steel.

So thats 4 tone per wheel of braking force before ur studs break.

ur cars weight less than 1000kg.

So u slam the breaks. The car weighs 1000kg, so thats 250 per wheel? Not quiet, and due to weight disrtibution under braking.

SO lets say 800kgs are being stopped by the front wheels. Thats 400kg per front wheel.

Now u got 4000kg per wheel to play with. 5x800 = 4000.

Thus i come to the conclusion that:

Ur tires must be capable of handling 5gs without skidding for u to break a stud. Not to mention that as our studs are 12mm and probably made out of treated steel not just mild, thus have a larger load capability, thus even more than than 5g braking is needed to break a wheel stud.



ps, dont forget to rep ;)

[souperman]

If that is your biggest concern then I wouldnt be:
a) getting a five lug conversion
b) doing it yourself like you suggested in the other thread.

ai, it was a joke.
but yeh, i'm researching 4 to 5 lug conversion

[revNhevN]

Ok, i will

A 10mm Mild Steel bolt, can take 1 tonne or shear stress.

Now, factory ones are 12mm, so there shear stess would be more. And u got 4 of them. So thats more 4 tonne shear stress each wheel can take.

And our studs are probably a material better than mild steel.

So thats 4 tone per wheel of braking force before ur studs break.

ur cars weight less than 1000kg.

So u slam the breaks. The car weighs 1000kg, so thats 250 per wheel? Not quiet, and due to weight disrtibution under braking.

SO lets say 800kgs are being stopped by the front wheels. Thats 400kg per front wheel.

Now u got 4000kg per wheel to play with. 5x800 = 4000.

Thus i come to the conclusion that:

Ur tires must be capable of handling 5gs without skidding for u to break a wheel nut. Not to mention that as our studs are 12mm and probably made out of treated steel not just mild, thus have a larger load capability, thus even more than than 5g braking is needed to break a wheel stud.



ps, dont forget to rep ;)
Um ok. what are u using to calculate all this? have u done statics at uni? firstly you say the the a bolt will shear at under a certain load:

"A 10mm Mild Steel bolt, can take 1 tonne or shear stress."

But go on to go on to say that the failure is the wheel nut:

" Ur tires must be capable of handling 5gs without skidding for u to break a wheel nut."

What does the failure of a wheel stud due to pure shear under braking have to do with braking a wheel nut? The wheel nut holds the wheel on but carries no load while braking in a straight line.

Secondly the failure of the wheel stud not only has to do with the weight of the car. It has to do with the change in energy during the braking and the time over the energy is transfered. Also the distance of each stud from the center of the hub must be considered. I have no idea where u got 5g's from.

I do agree that it is very unlikely you will break a wheel stud under braking. But not rep points sorry.:)

5 lug gives u less choice in 15 inch rims imo. 5x114.3 is less common than 4x100.

[aimre]

Um ok. what are u using to calculate all this? have u done statics at uni? firstly you say the the a bolt will shear at under a certain load:

"A 10mm Mild Steel bolt, can take 1 tonne or shear stress."

But go on to go on to say that the failure is the wheel nut:

" Ur tires must be capable of handling 5gs without skidding for u to break a wheel nut."

What does the failure of a wheel stud due to pure shear under braking have to do with braking a wheel nut? The wheel nut holds the wheel on but carries no load while braking in a straight line.

Secondly the failure of the wheel stud not only has to do with the weight of the car. It has to do with the change in energy during the braking and the time over the energy is transfered. Also the distance of each stud from the center of the hub must be considered. I have no idea where u got 5g's from.

I do agree that it is very unlikely you will break a wheel stud under braking. But not rep points sorry.:)

5 lug gives u less choice in 15 inch rims imo. 5x114.3 is less common than 4x100.


Sorry, wherever i said nut, i ment stud, nuts have nothing to do with breaking. Ill fix it

[aimre]

Um ok. what are u using to calculate all this? have u done statics at uni? firstly you say the the a bolt will shear at under a certain load:


Secondly the failure of the wheel stud not only has to do with the weight of the car. It has to do with the change in energy during the braking and the time over the energy is transfered. Also the distance of each stud from the center of the hub must be considered. I have no idea where u got 5g's from.




You have the bring the car to a halt. What are you stopping, something that weighs nothing? No! your stopping something with the weight 1000kg

So a car is travelling along, your not accelerating, what forces are acting on the car? In the Y direction, Gravity and the force the road applies. In the X direction, u got air slowing the car down (we'll neglect this) and then u got inertia, which as newton says


The vis insita, or innate force of matter is a power of resisting, by which every body as much as in it lies, continues in it's present state, whether it be of rest, or of moving uniformly forwards in a right line

Im am using this as a very rough guide, just to show that ur not gonna break a stud.

And how that i think about it more, its probably more as the center of the hub will take some load

[aimre]

Um ok. what are u using to calculate all this? have u done statics at uni?

Physics 1A
Engineering Mechanics
Engineering Materials and Chemistry

These uni courses may have helped me

[shadou]

all praise aimre *hail* :p good info here

[Zilli]

Ok, i will

A 10mm Mild Steel bolt, can take 1 tonne or shear stress.

Now, factory ones are 12mm, so there shear stess would be more. And u got 4 of them. So thats more 4 tonne shear stress each wheel can take.

And our studs are probably a material better than mild steel.

So thats 4 tone per wheel of braking force before ur studs break.

ur cars weight less than 1000kg.

So u slam the breaks. The car weighs 1000kg, so thats 250 per wheel? Not quiet, and due to weight disrtibution under braking.

SO lets say 800kgs are being stopped by the front wheels. Thats 400kg per front wheel.

Now u got 4000kg per wheel to play with. 5x800 = 4000.

Thus i come to the conclusion that:

Ur tires must be capable of handling 5gs without skidding for u to break a stud. Not to mention that as our studs are 12mm and probably made out of treated steel not just mild, thus have a larger load capability, thus even more than than 5g braking is needed to break a wheel stud.



ps, dont forget to rep ;)


Very nice mate, some interesting thoughts, but the reality is i wasn't quite wrong :p my opinion was not that the studs would break, or that having 4 studs vs. 5 studs on a 1000kg car would increase the probability of stud failure, as you will most likely never put enough pressure on them for that to happen anyway.
My point was to rather point out the advantage of having 5 over 4 which i think was the original question. All things being equal, the advantage of having 5 studs rather than 4, theoretically, is that you are gaining a system which has a much higher threshold before causing any stud reliability issues. So in essence, all you've done is say that what i am saying is right, and further delved into the scientific backup for exactly what i said.

Remember, his question wasn't regarding whether he is risking breaking his hub by staying at 4 stud, it was about the difference...

But still very interesting...

[aimre]

Very nice mate, some interesting thoughts, but the reality is i wasn't quite wrong :p my opinion was not that the studs would break, or that having 4 studs vs. 5 studs on a 1000kg car would increase the probability of stud failure, as you will most likely never put enough pressure on them for that to happen anyway.
My point was to rather point out the advantage of having 5 over 4 which i think was the original question. All things being equal, the advantage of having 5 studs rather than 4, theoretically, is that you are gaining a system which has a much higher threshold before causing any stud reliability issues. So in essence, all you've done is say that what i am saying is right, and further delved into the scientific backup for exactly what i said.

Remember, his question wasn't regarding whether he is risking breaking his hub by staying at 4 stud, it was about the difference...

But still very interesting...

Just point out that there isnt a need on a civic. No you werent really wrong lol.

But my working is very simplified. There are so many things to factor in its not funny

[Zilli]

+ rep

[Leprechaun]

Cheers guys...

[xtercii]

5 lugs are great for bling, especially with these fancy colour nuts. 4 lugs with colour nuts is just not a turn on...

[Leprechaun]

yeah i believe its more for show.. so i have decided to remove the 5 stud, and replace with 4 stud and upgrade my braking system..

reason: i've got practically brand new set of 4 stud rims i like, and my dc5r rims tyres are practically bald :P,
im strapped for cash also.. hahah..

[Benson]

Good choice. 5lug are not needed espeically if you want to do drag racing.

[revNhevN]

You have the bring the car to a halt. What are you stopping, something that weighs nothing? No! your stopping something with the weight 1000kg

So a car is travelling along, your not accelerating, what forces are acting on the car? In the Y direction, Gravity and the force the road applies. In the X direction, u got air slowing the car down (we'll neglect this) and then u got inertia, which as newton says



Im am using this as a very rough guide, just to show that ur not gonna break a stud.

And how that i think about it more, its probably more as the center of the hub will take some load

"Secondly the failure of the wheel stud not only has to do with the weight of the car."

If your not accelerating that means you are not braking (-ve acceleration) how will you break a wheel stud? There is no load on it.There is not change in energy all forces are constant. The wheel hub carries all of the load in this instance.

Now if you are braking (-ve acceleration) there is change in velocity there is a change in kinetic energy. Assuming no slipping of tyre on the road during braking the kinetic energy is transfered to heat energy - conservation of enery. The rolling diameter of the tyre is halved to give the radius - this multiplied by the braking force on each wheel will give a torque about the center of the hub. This torque is transfed to the wheel studs thru a force couple system (with D being the distance of the wheel stud from the center of the hub). The studs will experinece a force. This will be the load each wheel stud.

There is alot to consider and many assumptions must be made.

[aimre]

Good choice. 5lug are not needed espeically if you want to do drag racing.



That might be the answer. To hold on the wheel while cornering, as im not sure how much tension those threads can hold. But if a type R is such a race car, why does it only have dingle piston calipers. Now thats stupid

[90LAN]

That might be the answer. To hold on the wheel while cornering, as im not sure how much tension those threads can hold. But if a type R is such a race car, why does it only have dingle piston calipers. Now thats stupid

becos of the weight of the car 1050kg
honda would of tested these brakes for sure to say the are satisfactory for the track
it is not only calipers needed for braking it is also pads, rotors/size, suspension and tyres needed for good breaking

[revNhevN]

Its not all about having 24 piston calipers. More pistons distribute the load more evenly than a single piston. With a small pad and rotor size compared to other heavier cars a large single piston is sufficient according to honda. Imo multi piston calipers are only needed when for larger pad and disc combinations. The surface area of the single piston may be the same as the total of a multi piston caliper. If u want to waste ur money on a mutli piston setup when it is not necessary the you are stupid.

Your brakes are only as good as your weakest link. No point getting the best pads, calipers, fluid and rotors if you are running re-treads.

[aimre]

Its not all about having 24 piston calipers. More pistons distribute the load more evenly than a single piston. With a small pad and rotor size compared to other heavier cars a large single piston is sufficient according to honda. Imo multi piston calipers are only needed when for larger pad and disc combinations. The surface area of the single piston may be the same as the total of a multi piston caliper. If u want to waste ur money on a mutli piston setup when it is not necessary the you are stupid.

Your brakes are only as good as your weakest link. No point getting the best pads, calipers, fluid and rotors if you are running re-treads.

You obviously havent seen what happens when u track a car with a single piston. I'll try and find the real pic, but the pad looked like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/aimre/brake.jpg

[revNhevN]

I have tracked my car twice and did not experience any warping of my pad. Many people track their cars with oem single piston calipers and upgraded rotors.

[Zdster]

I have tracked my car twice and did not experience any warping of my pad. Many people track their cars with oem single piston calipers and upgraded rotors.

Agreed - as long as you dont drive your car through a puddle or slap on the handbrake you shouldnt have a problem.

[string]

5 stud = bling.

You're lying to yourself if you think you can't get the breaks you want/need for 4 stud.