Clarification about Oil Coolers

[arron]

Im not too sure if this would be a technical question or not but I'll just keep it in the noob space to avoid flamage...
In regards to aftermarket oil cooler kits.. I would like to know the following:

1. Advantages and Disadvantages of Oil Filter Relocating Kits Vs No Relocation Kits

2. In built Thermostat Oil Coolers better for what use? Street (low temp) or track (high temp)?

3. A 19 row cooler too many rows for someone who only goes to the track 5 times a year? Better off with a smaller 11 row?

4. Ideal Oil filter positions to prevent air pockets in filter in DC2R's

5. Placement of oil coolers on DC2R's from past experience.. Had a look and can't find a decent spot.. maybe I wasn't looking hard enough...

THANKS TO ANYONE WHO BOTHERS TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!

[DLO01]

1. Advantages and Disadvantages of Oil Filter Relocating Kits Vs No Relocation Kits

Easier access to the Filter, looks cool.
Can't think of many disadvantages. More expensive, extra thing to mount.

2. In built Thermostat Oil Coolers better for what use? Street (low temp) or track (high temp)?

Please look at this thread:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65645
Thermostats are good for street use, where you want your temps to get to opperating temp as soon as possible. Thermostats do not affect temp stability that much once its at opperating temps.

3. A 19 row cooler too many rows for someone who only goes to the track 5 times a year? Better off with a smaller 11 row?

People will have different opinions on size, some say none at all. The larger the cooler the more it will drop your oil pressure (this can be addressed). I think the 11 row is fine.
See how to increase your oil pressure here:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47308

4. Ideal Oil filter positions to prevent air pockets in filter in DC2R's

Some say mount it upside-down. I have had mine upright and no problems. You have 75-80psi flowing through the system, so I don't think air pockets will be a problem at all.

5. Placement of oil coolers on DC2R's from past experience.. Had a look and can't find a decent spot.. maybe I wasn't looking hard enough...

I have a turbo setup, so mines a little different. Some guys suggest putting it near the battery, which will be nice and neat.

Hope that helps

[e240]

3. A 19 row cooler too many rows for someone who only goes to the track 5 times a year? Better off with a smaller 11 row?

People will have different opinions on size, some say none at all. The larger the cooler the more it will drop your oil pressure (this can be addressed). I think the 11 row is fine.
See how to increase your oil pressure here:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47308


I use a 19 Row Cooler with filter relocation. I do not have any problems with oil pressure at all. I've also track tested the cooler and it performed A+++.
Oil temps never went above 100dC.

[DLO01]

It is impossible not to loose pressure.

A cooler setup is run in series not paralel, is yours in series? ie all oil flows out the adaptor plate through the cooler then back to the adaptor plate before it goes into your motor.

Where is your gauge plumbed in to?

[DLO01]

To clarify. When I say "loose pressure" I mean max pressure drops from the Std 75-80 psi.

[mattyk87]

where abouts would you tap in a cooler without a filter relocation kit? is it possible?

[e240]

It is impossible not to loose pressure.

A cooler setup is run in series not paralel, is yours in series? ie all oil flows out the adaptor plate through the cooler then back to the adaptor plate before it goes into your motor.

Where is your gauge plumbed in to?

In Series, Guage is plumbed into the relocation plate after the cooler.
No loss in pressure, at low or high revs, and my car has been tracked quite abit.

Also, oil pressure drops as the oil gets hotter. This is normal. It isn't due having an oil cooler.

The only reason I can think of the cause of an oil pressure drop is if your lines and oil cooler are of the incorrect volume size (for want of a better term)

[DLO01]

where abouts would you tap in a cooler without a filter relocation kit? is it possible?

You have a Sandwhich plate in between your Motor and Filter. This plate has outlets which diverts the oil to the Cooler and then back.

Heres my old Grex sandwhich plate:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/DLO01/Temp/ResizeofDSC00776.jpg

[e240]

where abouts would you tap in a cooler without a filter relocation kit? is it possible?

It fits via a sandwich plate where the original oil filter location is.

[DLO01]

In Series, Guage is plumbed into the relocation plate after the cooler.
No loss in pressure, at low or high revs, and my car has been tracked quite abit.

What pressure do you get at WOT?

[e240]

What pressure do you get at WOT?

Approximately 80 ~ 85psi

[DLO01]

That is impossible. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to doubt you, but you will only loose pressure with a cooler kit. Lengths of hose & cooler element are a restriction and will drop pressure.

I have also tested this in my car. Put the gauge before the cooler, then after the cooler and it was about 10psi drop with a 10 row cooler.

Does not make sence, but oh well. :cool:

[Limbo]

1) For your DC2r - The kit just makes it easier, otherwise you will need to split the lines on your stock cooler, not sure if you can as i rem the cooler is stuck to the block?. Also more trouble than its worth. Most people on a Dc2r just add another cooler

2) Thermostat is generally for road as you need the car to warm up to operating temp. On track it will always be warm due to the track and full throttle

3) As you already have a stock cooler on the DC2r i think a small one should be fine unless your looking at making big power or turbo. If you get a thermostat, its not gonna make any diff

4) A sandwich plate is best as it keeps the stock position of the coil cooler

5) coolers are generally place on the front via a bracket or on your a/c or radiator. I've also seen them place in the wheel arch.

DL001 - if you have problems with the pressure you can always up the pressure, its a simple thing to do, there is a post in the DIY. You always loose abit of pressure with an oil cooler even a small one. Also pressure is different depending on where your taking the reading & type/thickness of oil used

[DLO01]

Limbo I have increased my pressure. I have done this because I know pressure will only drop. I have done a lot of testing in this area.

Also can you please clarify on your point 1 about splitting the lines on the stock cooler. :thumbsup:

[Limbo]

With the oil lines you can usually use a T piece to split the oil feed and oil return line. Its mess as you need to find where you can jump the lines, but it works out cheaper than buying a sandwich plate.

In my experience there is less problems with the sandwich plate.

[DLO01]

But where are the oil feed and return lines?

The stock cooler is the mount in which the filter is screwed on to. It has "coolant" lines which enter this housing. The stock cooler is a heat exchanger, ie coolant cooling the oil.

[e240]

That is impossible. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to doubt you, but you will only loose pressure with a cooler kit. Lengths of hose & cooler element are a restriction and will drop pressure.

I have also tested this in my car. Put the gauge before the cooler, then after the cooler and it was about 10psi drop with a 10 row cooler.

Does not make sence, but oh well. :cool:

Yup..I always watch my oil pressures on the track, so am sure about what I'm seeing. Like I said, it depends on the quality of the cooler I guess. Some just have more restrictions which cause the drop in pressure., especially when you're measuring before and after the cooler.

[fatboyz39]

Its a closed pressure system.

[DLO01]

^^ that does not matter. If you increase length it will decrease pressure. Pressure at the bottom end is higher than in the head.

The further the path the less the pressure becomes.

Its like an intercooler. Each one has pressure drop, how much is dependant on the design. But it will drop pressure.

[e240]

Actually Fatboyz39 is correct, and it does matter.

unlike an intercooler, oil is a liquid and cannot be compressed, hence, there should be no pressure loss.

[DLO01]

Belive what you like thats your decision. :thumbsup:

The longer the pipe the more the restriction, loose pressure.
The more the bends the more the restriction, loose pressure.

If you have a length of pipe 'A' with a restrictive 180 degree (or multiple bends) bend 'B' and another length of pipe 'C'.

The pressure in A will always be more that in 'C'.

You could push/compress as much as you can in 'A', but it will trickel out of 'C'.

[bennjamin]

moved to tech section interesting topic

[bennjamin]

When adding a oil cooler you are increasing the overall amount and displacement of fluid , which would require (a percentile) more pressure to keep moving via the oil pump like stock. Hence increasing oil pressure.

[DLO01]

Its really as simple as this. You have a perfectly straight pipe, it itself has a cirtain friction co-eficient on the surface which is a resistance. Point "A" where your introduce your given Pressure will always be more that point "B", its a simple as that.

If you add more obstructions, a cooler, bends, its adds to the restriction and the longer it gets, the further you go, the less the pressure.

An engine is not a closed system. You have a sump and therefore oil "drains" into it. You motor is vented. That is not a factor anyway.

[BlitZ]

wiht my trust kit my pressure at WOT vtec is 85psi.

not sure if my temp gauge is broken..
but at the track it only reaches 85C... is that completely off?

[Limbo]

When i put my cooler in my pressure dropped 10PSI. Not enough to cause too much probs as its still at 75PSI at WOT. When Vtec kicks in its still the same only 75PSI

[Limbo]

But where are the oil feed and return lines?

The stock cooler is the mount in which the filter is screwed on to. It has "coolant" lines which enter this housing. The stock cooler is a heat exchanger, ie coolant cooling the oil.

If that's the case then you need to use a sandwich plate.

[e240]

Let me explain why there shouldn't be a drop in Oil Pressure.

Oil pressure is basically created when the oil pumped by the the oil pump meets restriction around the oil exit points (i.e. being forced out a smaller hole) which typically are the cam journals and crank shafts.

In a system with an oil cooler, even though the oil flows through the Oil Cooler lines, the exit points are the same and the restriction is the same. The Oil pump will continue to pressurise the entire system (including oil cooler) up till the restriction.

It may take a longer time for oil pressure to build up because of the extra lines and volume but when it does, the system would be pressurised up to what the relieve valve is rated for.

If you tell me you have a pressure drop after the cooler, I would have to say that there is then a restriction before the cooler core that is greater than the restriction at the oil exit points. In which case, you'd be faced with possible engine damage and it is unlikely that your High cam will even engage.

An oil cooler cannot be compared to the drop in an Intercooler system namely because air can be compressed and oil cannot.

If you have an oil pressure drop after installing an oil cooler, it can probably be due to several factors:
1) you have installed the Oil cooler system incorrectly
2) you have a faulty oil pressure sender/guage
3) there is a leak somewhere
4) You have oil pump issues

I know my oil system is reliable cause I have a new oil pump and there are no leaks in my system. I have taken pressure measurements at various locations before, 1) at the Stock pressure switch, 2) Before Core and now After Core.
And I have no variations at all. My guage is a VDO guage so there's some quality there.

I've got vids where even cruising at 3000rpm~4000rpm gives me an oil pressure of 80psi. At WOT, abt 85psi - I'll post these when i have some time.

[e240]

wiht my trust kit my pressure at WOT vtec is 85psi.

not sure if my temp gauge is broken..
but at the track it only reaches 85C... is that completely off?

Thats pretty good actually, show how efficient your cooler kit is.
My Oil Temps after 2~3 hard laps shows 100dC, which is normal...
But if I drive on the street, the oil temps never go past 80dC unless I use a blocking plate. LOL.

[DLO01]

Good discussion. :thumbsup:

E240,
I would agree with you if there was no flow in a sealed system. But as soon as you introduce flow you will get a restriction as minimal as it is after the pump. As I have said before, the longer you go the more corners the more obstructions, pressue will drop. There are restrictions 'yes' at the exits, but there are also restrictions along the way.

[e240]

Good discussion. :thumbsup:

E240,
I would agree with you if there was no flow in a sealed system. But as soon as you introduce flow you will get a restriction as minimal as it is after the pump. As I have said before, the longer you go the more corners the more obstructions, pressue will drop. There are restrictions 'yes' at the exits, but there are also restrictions along the way.


Cheers,

Hence, if your restriction along the way is enough to trigger the relief valve in the oil pump, you will never get sufficient pressure at the proper exit points, this itself is a serious problem. A proper setup should not have a drop in oil pressure of up to 10psi...For arguements sake, I can accept a 1 or 2 psi drop (due to the Oil pump relief) but 5 ~ 10 psi? It doesn't sound normal and looks like an issue to me.

[BlitZ]

An oil cooler cannot be compared to the drop in an Intercooler system namely because air can be compressed and oil cannot.


I know what u mean.. ;)...
Air is easier to compress but oil can be compressed too

[BlitZ]

When i put my cooler in my pressure dropped 10PSI. Not enough to cause too much probs as its still at 75PSI at WOT. When Vtec kicks in its still the same only 75PSI

how many row cooler and what size line and fittings?

[DLO01]

Cheers,

Hence, if your restriction along the way is enough to trigger the relief valve in the oil pump, you will never get sufficient pressure at the proper exit points, this itself is a serious problem. A proper setup should not have a drop in oil pressure of up to 10psi...For arguements sake, I can accept a 1 or 2 psi drop (due to the Oil pump relief) but 5 ~ 10 psi? It doesn't sound normal and looks like an issue to me.

I see my drop as normal, but I cannot understand why you guys get those readings.

Lets nut it out. :cool:

Where is your pressure sensor?

My setup:

Oil comes out the motor, the 'Outside' of my adaptor plate, to the cooler (trust 10 row), then to the filter block (this is where my sensor is), then through the filter, then back to the 'centre' of the adaptor place, back in to motor.

Hows yours done?

[e240]

I see my drop as normal, but I cannot understand why you guys get those readings.

Lets nut it out. :cool:

Where is your pressure sensor?

My setup:

Oil comes out the motor, the 'Outside' of my adaptor plate, to the cooler (trust 10 row), then to the filter block (this is where my sensor is), then through the filter, then back to the 'centre' of the adaptor place, back in to motor.

Hows yours done?

I have measured my pressure at 3 places prior...
a. At the point of the OEM Sender unit
b. Before Oil cooler core (on Remote Oil filter Plate)
c. After Oil Cooler core (on Remote Oil filter plate)
and all readings are the same.

I use a 19 row oil cooler from Mfactory, otherwise my setup is exactly the same as yours. Oil is a 15w50 weight.

[Limbo]

Blitz - smallish cooler, No. 10 fitting, its those braided number forgot what the size is now.

[BlitZ]

I see my drop as normal, but I cannot understand why you guys get those readings.

Lets nut it out. :cool:

Where is your pressure sensor?

My setup:

Oil comes out the motor, the 'Outside' of my adaptor plate, to the cooler (trust 10 row), then to the filter block (this is where my sensor is), then through the filter, then back to the 'centre' of the adaptor place, back in to motor.

Hows yours done?

Mine is placed post cooler on sandwich plate.. I used the pre cooler for temp sensor.

Is you 75psi post turbo?

[DLO01]

Yeh, I have my sensor at the Filter Plate and also my Turbo feed at the plate.

When I hooked up the turbo feed it only made a slight difference in pressure.

I have 2 washers in my Relief Valve and am reading 84 psi at the plate.

I belive what you guys are saying, but it is impossible to read the same pressure through out your engine. Even through the filter you 'will' have a pressure drop and that is a fact.

[fatboyz39]

E240 is right. I don't see why there is loss in oil pressure with a oil cooler installed. Mayb install another gauge in a different locatino to see the oil pressure difference?

[bennjamin]

E240 is right. I don't see why there is loss in oil pressure with a oil cooler installed. Mayb install another gauge in a different locatino to see the oil pressure difference?

Wouldnt the amount of fluid to displace (lines plus cooler) and extra resistance (the oil cooler / thermostat etc) warrant a drop in relative pressure ? It is working beyond a stock motors oil flow. Its not a HUGE drop but its definitely a drop.
There have been articles and even a DIY on this forum to increase oil pressure by adjusting the relief valve , when after installing a oil cooler
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47308&highlight=oil+cooler etc.

[tinkerbell]

can the posters stating "no drop" explain the effect of fitting a smaller oil filter? i.e. B series size vs K series size?

would it have any effect on pressure?

[bennjamin]

can the posters stating "no drop" explain the effect of fitting a smaller oil filter? i.e. B series size vs K series size?

would it have any effect on pressure?


Love your shit stirring to prove a point :)

EDIT after a quick search according to some random posts on HT


RSX filter gives up to 15psi more oil pressure under hard throttle...
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=156932

So , since this is reducing the actual displacement at a set area , surely increasing the displacement at set areas would decrease oil pressure at WOT or similar ? :)

[tinkerbell]

r u a "no drop" poster? :P

[bennjamin]

no. i think there would be a drop in pressure :) But i dont know im just thinking out loud of what many other people have said.

Does anyone here have some readouts @ WOT with a oil cooler ?