Motor Magazine (September 07)

[eurofan]

gday all, anyone notice that the euro luxury is now rated 4 Stars (under "sedans under $60k") in the Sept07 issue? it had a 5 Star rating in all the past issues, AFAIK. wonder what happened there. :confused:

[Pumped]

Epica>Euro..

apparently.

Maybe just new cars on the market

[tony1234]

I wouldn't touch an Epica.Daewoo with a different name.:thumbdwn:

[Pumped]

lol :) yea, i agree tony

[Bryce]

i agree with that being agreed with

top work chaps

[Borg]

Does the Euro have electronic stability control, or a version of it? I have noticed that mags such as Wheels and Motor are very critical of cars that dont have the latest "in" safety feature.

[EuroAccord13]

Epica>Euro..

Yeah the TV ad claims (which is true) that it is more fuel wise than the "similarly engine sized" Accord Euro...

So lets see...

2.5L Inline 6 Epica makes.... 115Kws.. ADR 9.3L per 100km (Auto)

2.4 Inline 4 Accord Euro makes..... 140Kws.... ADR 9.4L per 100km (Auto)

Both with DOHC.....

I don't even want to talk about torque delivery....


Geeez and I wonder why it's more economical....LOL! (it's a poke at Holden)

[BiLL|z0r]

Does the Euro have electronic stability control, or a version of it? I have noticed that mags such as Wheels and Motor are very critical of cars that dont have the latest "in" safety feature.

Yes it does, it's called VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist).

[Pumped]

Yeah the TV ad claims (which is true) that it is more fuel wise than the "similarly engine sized" Accord Euro...


lol :) you got what i was hinting at
pity its fugly,slow & looks cheap :)

[EuroDude]

Hmm it seems Holden themselves dont even have trust in the Epica, if you dont like it, they offer a refund. But you need to buy another car of similar value before you can return it: http://www.caradvice.com.au/2531/holden-epica-dont-like-it-bring-it-back-if-you-can/

And some more quality concerns regarding the Epica:
http://autofix.com.au/blog/archives/220

Do yourself a favor, stick with a reliable Japanese car. The Korean cars have improved, but they cannot compete with the Japanese offerings.

[yfin]

Epica>Euro..

apparently.

Maybe just new cars on the market

Really - a magazine rated the epica better? Find that hard to believe.

[killua888]

seriously....i have no idea how anyone can name the epica as being a better car than the euro........in terms of looks and performance the euro wins hands down. build quality is a whole other issue.........

[blk05gli]

and to think that holden bought the epica as a replacement for the vectra !!!

[Craig]

Hey guys,
as the author of Autofix.com.au I have to be reasonably reserved when mentioning brand names but honestly what a f*****n joke! I would love to write how much I despised working on Daewoo's and for Holden to bring out the VE and then follow up with this crap, they need their heads read. The word around the traps is that Holden has some sort of influence over Motor Magazine so don't take it too much to heart. The Euro shouldn't even be compared to the Dog Poo, I mean Daewoo. Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.

Craig

[Vinnie]

the first post just mentioned the rating of the euro had dropped for some reason, not that the epica was rated better. can sum1 who has the magazine verify if it actually claims this?

[tony1234]

Hey guys,
as the author of Autofix.com.au I have to be reasonably reserved when mentioning brand names but honestly what a f*****n joke! I would love to write how much I despised working on Daewoo's and for Holden to bring out the VE and then follow up with this crap, they need their heads read. The word around the traps is that Holden has some sort of influence over Motor Magazine so don't take it too much to heart. The Euro shouldn't even be compared to the Dog Poo, I mean Daewoo. Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.

Craig
Yeah that figures,Motor mag seem to love anything Holden.As Eurodude said the koreans have improved but i wouldn't rush out and buy any of their cars just yet.Comparing the Euro with a Daewoo what a joke.:thumbdwn::thumbdwn:

[Pumped]

gday all, anyone notice that the euro luxury is now rated 4 Stars (under "sedans under $60k") in the Sept07 issue? it had a 5 Star rating in all the past issues, AFAIK. wonder what happened there. :confused:

Maybe its related to that Gold star test they ran, which seemed like a bit of a joke :p
taking into account the power, pricing, safety features, drive etc of the Euro i would of placed it higher then the 4th it scored :p





Hmm it seems Holden themselves dont even have trust in the Epica, if you dont like it, they offer a refund. But you need to buy another car of similar value before you can return it: http://www.caradvice.com.au/2531/holden-epica-dont-like-it-bring-it-back-if-you-can/


Doesnt that mean they do trust the epica? :p

[tron07]

Sometimes, car companies sponsor lots of money thru adverts or other avenues for the magazine, then the manazines dont write bad things about their cars.....

[eurofan]

it was nice to be one of only three cars with 5 Stars (euro lux, STi, Evo9) but for some reason the euro lux rating has dropped to 4 Stars...

can't remember what the epica rating was though but i would be surprised if it was better than the euro. :eek:

[ShAwNeX]

I don't get it. What's the relationship between the Holden and the Daewoo? :confused:

[Pumped]

GM own Daewoo
A few of the current cars badged as Holdens are actually daewoo designed/built
The Barina, captiva & epica.. might be more, cant recall atm

[ozgordon]

Dont forget the Viva LOL!!!!

[EuroDude]

I don't get it. What's the relationship between the Holden and the Daewoo? :confused:



General Motors owns all these companies~
Buick
Cadillac
Chevrolet
Daewoo
GMC
Holden
Hummer
Opel
Pontiac
Saturn
Saab
Vauxhall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_industry


When one of GM's sub companies (subsidiaries) develop a car, they often manufacturer that car to other subsidiaries. In this case, Daewoo gave Holden the Epica. Holden are doing the same with the VE commodore, selling it in the US as a Pontiac

[devilians]

GM = Big Big company = Big under table money
Honda = Big but not as Big but can't be fxxked giving under table money
therefore rating drop on Honda rating raise on Holden (GM)

from chinese theory

[my_vtec77]

Hey guys,
as the author of Autofix.com.au I have to be reasonably reserved when mentioning brand names but honestly what a f*****n joke! I would love to write how much I despised working on Daewoo's and for Holden to bring out the VE and then follow up with this crap, they need their heads read. The word around the traps is that Holden has some sort of influence over Motor Magazine so don't take it too much to heart. The Euro shouldn't even be compared to the Dog Poo, I mean Daewoo. Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.

Craig

You bloody right. I knew it. Few days ago, i was reading Wheels mag about choosing wheels car of the year. How come VE is car of the year among those top rated cars like Porsche, Mercs, BMW, Honda, etc...

And VE couldn't even qualify for safety test. But Holden boss said in real life car crash wont ever happen in that kinda speed which is used in crash test. What if? Die? Those holdens killing P drivers actually.

Sorry guys if my comments harm to some personnel (Holden lovers or ...). I don't mean to.:angel: i just can't stand cheat or lies (but i like cheat codes for games thou:p)

[Craig]

Have a read of some of the posts on caradvice.com.au regarding the mainstream motor media, Alborz is a lot closer to the scene than I am and there is obviously some pocket lining going on.:thumbdwn:

[yfin]

And VE couldn't even qualify for safety test. But Holden boss said in real life car crash wont ever happen in that kinda speed which is used in crash test. What if? Die? Those holdens killing P drivers actually.

Not sure what you mean by `qualify` for safety rating - I think you are talking about the discussion in the article between the VE only getting a 4 star rating and not a 5 star safety rating.

What safety rating do you think the Euro has? The article goes on to say the flaws in the safety ratings tests and how they are not necessarily fair.

I would much rather be in a VE than a Euro in an accident involving another vehicle. The weight advantage is huge.

[my_vtec77]

Apparently i just talking about the mags that giving too much favor on Holdens. But that's fair enough coz local mags give favor to local cars. And I just discussing some story that came across on my mind. BTW Euro has 4-star ANCAP rating.


I would much rather be in a VE than a Euro in an accident involving another vehicle. The weight advantage is huge.

you cant compare VE and Euro coz it's different class and of coz larger car has more advantage in accident. i think better compare with Mercs E-class which has similar weight to VE. So i better be in a E-class than a VE.

[my_vtec77]

Ahh.. sorry yfin. didnt notice that you have VE:eek:. Plz dont mind that i commenting about VE.:D

[leechi]

Sorry guys if my comments harm to some personnel (Holden lovers or ...). I don't mean to.:angel: i just can't stand cheat or lies (but i like cheat codes for games thou:p)[/QUOTE]

If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying :p

[LXRY]

gday all, anyone notice that the euro luxury is now rated 4 Stars (under "sedans under $60k") in the Sept07 issue? it had a 5 Star rating in all the past issues, AFAIK. wonder what happened there. :confused:


These magazines gather alot of information regarding this matter alot from surveys conducted......customer satisfaction is one of the factors used to determine what rating they get also, not only quality and safety etc. etc......Car companies pay professionals to conduct surveys, hence Honda surveys...1 at 10,000klm's and another at 20,000klm's (correct me if I'm wrong).

In one way it's good for the company..so they can recognize problems, on the other well .......Wheels magazine pays for the information hehe.

To gain a five star the vehicle has to meet all criteria including customer satisfaction...

[r-r-redEuro]

well coming from yfin who did own a euro, and now is driving the VE. i back him up about what he said.

also where i work i drive many cars, and ive been in VE's alot they come by heaps
and it heavier i feel more " safe " if i got into an accident then the euro.

that is all.

but i do feel more comfortable in the euro then the VE.

[IAMVTEC]

Dude you pay too much attention.

But why is it gone down a star? its no longer 2003, this is 2007 . The standards for a car has gone up, Euro is still the same car for same price as before. Thats why.

[take_no_prisoners]

Not sure if it has already been mentioned, but Euro lux was rated 4 stars in the car liftout in fridays paper. The last edition they posted of this liftout some months ago had the lux at 5stars.

[melloy_honda]

PBL publishing is also in bed with GM!

Well thats my theory...! Totaly no substance but just a theory!

[Jaso]

Really...who cares what its rated. It's still the same car.


You bloody right. I knew it. Few days ago, i was reading Wheels mag about choosing wheels car of the year. How come VE is car of the year among those top rated cars like Porsche, Mercs, BMW, Honda, etc...

And VE couldn't even qualify for safety test. But Holden boss said in real life car crash wont ever happen in that kinda speed which is used in crash test. What if? Die? Those holdens killing P drivers actually.

Sorry guys if my comments harm to some personnel (Holden lovers or ...). I don't mean to. i just can't stand cheat or lies (but i like cheat codes for games thou)

How come it was car of the year amongst other company? Read the article...you pay top dollar for "top rated cars"

I dont agree with your comments. I think what the former Holden boss was saying was that some manufacturers engineer their cars to score 5 stars in ANCAP etc to form the basis of a marketing tool, NOT to crash as well as possible in all circumstances.

[terryansimon]

I dont agree with your comments. I think what the former Holden boss was saying was that some manufacturers engineer their cars to score 5 stars in ANCAP etc to form the basis of a marketing tool, NOT to crash as well as possible in all circumstances.

to a certain extent, I find myself agreeing with what you said. I noticed a few car manufacturers flaunting their crash rating, and combining it with safety acronyms such as ABS/EBD/TCS/VSA/etc to give the illusion that the car is a much safer alternative than their nearest rivals. and as such, people may have a higher inclination to get that said vehicle, simply because they've already been primed mentally to feel safer as a result of such crash ratings/safety acronyms.

I think car manufacturers should just put stickers of what features they have at the back of the car. I remember seeing that quite often with the Rovers from days before, especially when ABS was getting phased in. should work a charm. :p

[Omotesando]

Why do people think a heavier car is safer than a lighter car in an accident?

Perhaps in a 2 car collision the heavier one might have the 'advantage' but it still depends on the structural integrity and design of the car in question. A lighter safety shell doesnt necessarily make it less stronger than a bigger one. 2ndly you got to think about where the extra weight is actually coming from. Such as RWD, bigger engine, bigger everything else, etc.

In a single car accident I think I'll much prefer to be in a lighter car but with a relatively strong safety cell (A-Class or Yaris, both very safe cars btw). If I hit a stationary wall or a pole the lighter car will slow down much much quicker and the deceleration g-force i encounter hopefully won't send me into shock and kill me. hmmmm.

[yfin]

Why do people think a heavier car is safer than a lighter car in an accident?


Because it is a fact- size and weight is a huge advantage in a 2 car crash. The occupants of the heavier car are typicaly going to be in a better position in 2 car crashes.

You are right about a single vehicle crash hitting a fixed object - the weight of the vehicle is less or no advantage.

[Omotesando]

Because it is a fact- size and weight is a huge advantage in a 2 car crash. The occupants of the heavier car are typicaly going to be in a better position in 2 car crashes.

You are right about a single vehicle crash hitting a fixed object - the weight of the vehicle is less or no advantage.

A Fact? That's about the most far-stretched claim I've heard. Are you an engineer who can prove this? Are you 100% certain you are correct?

Unless you're talking about a Hummer or a truck, I dont understand how a better structurally engineered car at 1250kg can't out-crash a 1450kg or 1500Kg car. Have you considered the fact that an A-Class or a Yaris is so safe not only due to the passive safety features and/or has sound structural engineering, but perhaps because its specific shape (like an egg) gives it better crashability?

As I already said 'may be' in a 2 car crash the heavier one should have an advantage over the lighter one but for me, I would not be as conclusive as to claim it as 'a fact' just because you think it is simple physics to you. To me, its more like a case by case scenario.

Perhaps A is safer than B during a crash. And B is safer than C in a 2 car crash. Due to the different impact points, heights, etc, it is impossible to conclude thatn C can't actually out-crash an A.

[yfin]

Alright Omo - let me crash my 1800kg VE into a Yaris and see who wins. 5 star rating versus 4 star. I will bulldoze the occupants into oblivion.

[Omotesando]

Alright Omo - let me crash my 1800kg VE into a Yaris and see who wins. 5 star rating versus 4 star. I will bulldoze the occupants into oblivion.

Have u ever considered that you're mentality is just the same as those driving AWDs who think they can bully everyone because they are heavier and bigger? How about if I drove a Cayenne S and drove into the side of your VE Commodore?

If everyone has similar sized cars with only 4 cylinders and doesn't carry more metal than is necessary, perhaps it would be more fair to one another survival rate wise lol! :angel:

Still you were exaggerating what I said into the wrong context especially with the singular quotes from what I wrote altogether. Whilst I agree that your VE will most probably fare out better during a collision with a Yaris, it still doesn't prove that a heavier car must necessarily be safer than a lighter car in all cases.

Well the Yaris has an NCAP rating of 5 stars but the VE Commodore has NCAP rating of 4 stars. Have you considered why the VE Commodore hasn't attained 5 stars? One could argue other cars with 5 stars specifically engineered it to get the rating but at the end of the day, even if the NCAP isn't a perfect rating system, if Holden knew about it why didn't they engineer it to be 5 stars?

What is Holden's excuse that the VY commodore had better frontal impact rating than the newer VE Commodore? It should be safer no?

Which gets back to what I said before.

The engineering of the car's design is utterly important and as my original point tried to cover, a heavier car isn't necessarily going to fare better. Obviously depends on the relative differences.

And if the NCAP was too much based/biased on a car hitting a stationary object at a fixed speed than obviously it shows the Yaris is safer than the VE Commodore under that particular set of variables.

I mean one might as well argue that we should all drive trucks or tanks if you are concerned about crashing into other cars.

If a Yaris hits onto your side and you survive, you should probably thank god that the Yaris wasnt any heavier, not because your VE Commodore had very good side on protection because another VE hitting your side wouldn't be a very happy scenario.

PS. I often think UFOs are shaped round so they have 360 degrees of crumble zone when they crash lol.

[markCivicVti]

Hmm it seems Holden themselves dont even have trust in the Epica, if you dont like it, they offer a refund. But you need to buy another car of similar value before you can return it: http://www.caradvice.com.au/2531/holden-epica-dont-like-it-bring-it-back-if-you-can/

And some more quality concerns regarding the Epica:
http://autofix.com.au/blog/archives/220

Do yourself a favor, stick with a reliable Japanese car. The Korean cars have improved, but they cannot compete with the Japanese offerings.


That makes no sense. If they didn't trust it then they wouldn't offer a refund. Once its bought they couldn't care less if you don't like it. But they trust you like it so the perceived risk is low. Risk that the consumer will want a refund.

[Omotesando]

That makes no sense. If they didn't trust it then they wouldn't offer a refund. Once its bought they couldn't care less if you don't like it. But they trust you like it so the perceived risk is low. Risk that the consumer will want a refund.

Yes but you got to consider that if they didn't offer this refund offer, people probably wouldn't buy it in the first place either.

The better explanation might be that they trust the Epica enough that ppl won't return it once its sold, but they don't trust it enough that without extra incentives or protection for the buyers, it wouldn't really sell!

Its a bit bluffing IMO. There's nothing much to lose for them either. They still get the car back and it still has resale value. They probably make 50% if the buyer keep it but lose 20% market value if they get it back. Yet, if they had 50% margin and they lost 20% market value, it means it didn't costed them that much at imported cost - so theoretically they could still sell it off 2nd hand for a profit or just breakeven.

[Jaso]

Well the Yaris has an NCAP rating of 5 stars but the VE Commodore has NCAP rating of 4 stars. Have you considered why the VE Commodore hasn't attained 5 stars? One could argue other cars with 5 stars specifically engineered it to get the rating but at the end of the day, even if the NCAP isn't a perfect rating system, if Holden knew about it why didn't they engineer it to be 5 stars?

Some cars are engineered to crash well in NCAP, not to crash as well as possible under all possible circumstances. Dont forget, VE is engineered for Australia...unlike the Yaris which is sold in a large number of markets.

Stationary collisions and collisions with moving objects are two different things. Car A could crash better in a collision with car B, but car B may crash better than car A in a stationary collision.

I think what yfin is saying on principle a heavier car will have an advantage over lighter one. If you were crashing into a truck would you rather be in a Yaris or another truck? On the other hand, it the Yaris and truck were crashing into a solid concrete wall i think I would rather be in the 5 star Yaris.

[didz]

its pretty typical. Aussie journo's will (in my experience of reading) always rate the ford or holden (holden in most cases) higher than the japanese ones.

[Jaso]

Epica is only an Australian car because it wears a holden badge on the front of it. In all reality it is a Daewoo - not Australian.

[aaronng]

I think what yfin is saying on principle a heavier car will have an advantage over lighter one. If you were crashing into a truck would you rather be in a Yaris or another truck? On the other hand, it the Yaris and truck were crashing into a solid concrete wall i think I would rather be in the 5 star Yaris.
A truck is different. A truck has a rigid chassis, unlike a monocoque shell design of passenger cars.

Anyway, weight has one advantage and it is not about the heavier car crumpling less when it hits a lighter car. The advantage is that a heavier car changes velocity less than a lighter car in a collision (conservation of momentum, Newton's 2nd law). And in a serious crash, you can have all the airbags and instant spray-me safety-foam that encases you in a shell so you don't hit anything, but the deceleration will cause internal injury to your organs and death. From what I remember, if you crash at 100km/h into a solid concrete wall and your car's passenger cell survives, you still die from internal injury (this was from Top Gear's test of a Smart car into a concrete wall).

For 2 cars, one 1000kg and the other 2000kg, the heavier car will probably at most undergo deceleration that is 1/2 of that of the lighter car in a head on collision. That 50% is a big amount and can be the difference between life and death. So even if your car has the best passenger cell, deceleration can still kill you. On the other hand, your car can be big and heavy, but if a small side-view mirror from the lighter car penetrates the cabin and smashes into your head, you still die. :)

[didz]

Epica is only an Australian car because it wears a holden badge on the front of it. In all reality it is a Daewoo - not Australian.
may be so but it doesnt change anything i've said, does it.

[terryansimon]

From what I remember, if you crash at 100km/h into a solid concrete wall and your car's passenger cell survives, you still die from internal injury (this was from Top Gear's test of a Smart car into a concrete wall).


Fifth Gear, actually. I think. :p

good explanation, by the way :thumbsup:

[blk05gli]

Yeah that figures,Motor mag seem to love anything Holden.As Eurodude said the koreans have improved but i wouldn't rush out and buy any of their cars just yet.Comparing the Euro with a Daewoo what a joke.:thumbdwn::thumbdwn:

thats why I only spend my hard earned cash on top gear magazine from the UK. all brands, other than aston martin :cool:, are treated equally.

[Jaso]

Epica is only an Australian car because it wears a holden badge on the front of it. In all reality it is a Daewoo - not Australian.
may be so but it doesnt change anything i've said, does it.

Well actually in the vast majority of cases Motor/Wheels don't favour Korean made Holden's. Maybe they favor the Australian ones because they are good, aren't they. :)

[tony1234]

Give me a japanese made car over an Aust.made car anyday.(mind you they are improving):)

[blk05gli]

Give me a japanese made car over an Aust.made car anyday.(mind you they are improving):)

the australian makers did have a lot of help in the past from the japanese:
commodore/lexcen
camry/apollo
nova/corolla
astra/pulsar (remember the HSV SV1800 !! :eek:)

[Vinnie]

i find the fact that all this argument spawned from people being outraged that the euro dropped a single star rating quite humorous. there are multiple factors that could have caused this, not least of which it is an ageing design. the fact that is was rated at 5 stars in the first place should be seen as a massive achievement on its own.

then there was a whole lot of discussion about the epica which, if anyone has noticed, isnt rated at all (most likely due to its 'epically' crap performance figures).

now its just another jap/aust car debate...

[aaronng]

i find the fact that all this argument spawned from people being outraged that the euro dropped a single star rating quite humorous. there are multiple factors that could have caused this, not least of which it is an ageing design. the fact that is was rated at 5 stars in the first place should be seen as a massive achievement on its own.

then there was a whole lot of discussion about the epica which, if anyone has noticed, isnt rated at all (most likely due to its 'epically' crap performance figures).

now its just another jap/aust car debate...

I reckon it dropped 1 star because it doesn't offer curtain airbags across the range like what Mazda does with the Mazda6 now.

[tony1234]

I reckon it dropped 1 star because it doesn't offer curtain airbags across the range like what Mazda does with the Mazda6 now.
Most likely explanation.Also it is an "older model".

[EUR003act]

I reckon it dropped 1 star because it doesn't offer curtain airbags across the range like what Mazda does with the Mazda6 now.

in europe all euros come with curtain airbags, and it still holds 5star rating there... so id say your explanation is correct

[Pumped]

Motor magazine is in Europe?