Muhhan’s D-series build [Archive]

muhhan

02-09-2007, 12:39 AM

I’m currently doing some research for an engine I want to put together for my Civic and would really appreciate people’s advice, comments, and opinions. I’ve written a long word document about it but to save people the boredom I’ll try to give an abridged version. If you are that keen on reading the full version give me a holler and I’ll post it.

My goal is to have a broad, street usable power band.

The build will happen in stages but, ultimately, for the engine I bolt together I’m considering the following:

Bottom End

Block from either my current D16Y4 or a D16Y8 with cylinders bored and honed. I was looking at boring them out 1mm to unshroud the valves and increase displacement but the service manual only recommends boring to .5mm so I’m not sure if going to 76mm bore is too much. At any rate, I don’t know what the availability of pistons to suit 76mm bore for the D-series is like. I wasn’t planning on decking the head anything crazy, just enough to tidy up the mating surface for a good seal.

I was thinking about getting the crank balanced but that was it. No special treatment. As for the conrods I reckon I'll get away with deburring and shotpeening for a little added insurance.

Piston choice is still up in the air. Not considering the potential 76mm overbore as an issue, I was looking at the P29 or PM7 pistons. They both have a 7.2cc displacement and a 29mm compression height which would leave a 1mm piston to deck clearance. The alternative is SRP pistons with a 4.3cc displacement, 29.5mm compression height, and max bore available is 75.5mm. These would leave a .5mm piston to deck clearance. Apart from the piston significantly changing the compression ratio I will have to muck around with head gasket thicknesses to adjust compression ratio as well.

Head

I am considering using the D16Y8 head with an extrude hone port job. Camshaft I was looking at was a Crower stage 2. I would love to hear people’s opinion of this camshaft, particularly where you found it made solid power and where peak power occurred. Naturally this depends on other things but would be good to know as a rough guide. Anyone know what sort of compression ratio is recommended for this camshaft?

Valve train supporting hardware I was looking at the Crower gear as well – valve spring and titanium retainers. Was looking at using OEM valves and getting a valve job.

Again, just some machine work to tidy up the mating surface of the head, no crazy milling.

Compression Ratio

With the various combinations of overbore cylinders, pistons, and head gasket thicknesses I have come up with a compression ratio range of approximately 11.75:1 – 12.84:1. I was planning on feeding this engine 98RON fuel.

What are people’s thoughts on the compression ratio?

Other Issues

I was looking at using a standalone ECU such as Hondata and this would require a conversion harness to OBD1.

Haven’t given heaps of thought to bolt ons or fuel delivery.

From what I can gather about the Crower stage 2 camshaft it makes its power in the high end of the rev range. Since I want to develop a broad power band I’m not sure if I should gear my other modifications to support the camshaft in where it ‘naturally’ makes solid power or if I should get parts to support power production in the mid to lower rev range. For example, should I go for a 4-1 exhaust manifold to promote top end power or a 4-2-1 design that would normally promote power in the mid rev range?

Thanks for taking the time to read my post!

SLOWEGG

02-09-2007, 01:00 AM

Not having a go at you but, if you want 100kw why dont you just do a B-series conversion? The money your spending building the D series you could afford a B with decent mods and will make more then 100kw.

muhhan

02-09-2007, 01:42 AM

I was under the impression that a B-series conversion would cost a fair bit. Doesn't a B16A front cut cost around $3000? Originally I was planning to salvage most of the parts from wreckers for my D-series build which would keep costs down.

I'm planning to get my hands dirty on this one. Besides, I'd feel bad if I completely stuffed up a B-series.

d15z1SUX

02-09-2007, 01:43 PM

d-series budget build ftw

Benson

02-09-2007, 01:57 PM

you'll will end up spending heaps more with your d-series build. Just do a b16a conversion and get some bolt-ons. The D-series wont satisfy you.

[ricer]

02-09-2007, 01:59 PM

stock b series will be more reliable too man...
learn to do a conversion that will be as much fun

d15z1SUX

02-09-2007, 02:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGAufNAxv8c

woo hoo

hinezz

02-09-2007, 04:21 PM

yea go for the b16 or b18 conversion
:thumbsup:

ZeForce

02-09-2007, 04:29 PM

If you want a broad useable torque curve with good midrange, then IMO a B18c with some decent bolts on would be the way to go

JasonGilholme

02-09-2007, 04:56 PM

i'd definately go with the b series conversion cause if you run into some money later on down the road you'll have room to upgrade (ie bored out cylinders etc) whereas you'll already have that done to a d16 (which you want be able to sell cause no one wants to buy a d series)

It might cost a bit extra upfront but the options for power afterwards will be much better then with a D.

Good luck mate

barefootbonzai

02-09-2007, 07:09 PM

D-SeRieS is the shitznitz! No need to listern to these guys, go with your heart! Better yet D-SERies TurBO!

muhhan

02-09-2007, 09:02 PM

Thanks for your honest opinion guys, but let me put my build into context for you all.

Although the final product and power output may be very rewarding from a swap, that is not why I have a passion for cars. It is the hours upon hours upon hours of reading that keeps me up till 4am on a weekday where I have to get up for work by 6:30am; it is the mountain of catalogues that I flip through time and time again, working and reworking combinations; it is the research and learning that drive me towards my build; and it is my obsession to achieve my goals of learning, understanding and developing an engine that I'm satisfied with, right through from conception to creation. That is why I'm intending to build this engine.

It might be hard for some people to understand my ludicrousness but imagine there is something that you are so passionate about. Don't you have an unwavering desire to follow your dream?

Sexc86

02-09-2007, 10:48 PM

have you thought about a basic bolt on turbo kit for your d16? that way you wont have to open your engine up and you should easily reach your power goal. good luck with whatever path you choose :)

Regards lyle

blk_shadow

03-09-2007, 12:33 AM

blu3illusion84

03-09-2007, 01:47 AM

great lists of stuff for D goodies there..

Muzz

03-09-2007, 02:01 AM

Personally, a b swap really dosnt impress me anymore, it seems like every single modifyed honda over heres got a b swap.

While probably not as fast as a b16 with a few mods, a built, NA d series would be damn cool to take for a spin:cool:
Good luck with it man! :thumbsup:

Aza

03-09-2007, 07:43 AM

d series is shit unless u put a hair dryer on it, then it becomes fun ;) if i were u..... dont build the engine, turbo it, run around 7 to 10 psi and have some fun. u will easily achieve more then the power ur aiming for and if u take the time to research u wont spend too much.

blk_shadow

03-09-2007, 08:12 AM

sometimes its good to take the road less travelled

Sexc86

03-09-2007, 09:36 AM

I reccon it would be pretty cool to see a All motor, Dseries frankenstein.

But i guess it all comes down to your budget and how far you want to go with the build. There could be other paths to take which may be better when it comes down to Value for HP. But isnt that why we all modify our cars? to make them unique with our own style?. Something like this thought would deffinately be pretty experimental as there probably wouldnt be that much info out there i might get a bit "hit and miss", but then again it could all work very well together, who knows?

Genuninely hope you get your project off the ground and would love to see a write up with some more specs and info / pictures. There is a fella called Brian who is on these forems his name i think is something like EG[KRT], he has built a very simple and impressive d16y1. He would deffinately have some good advice.

TR53XX

03-09-2007, 09:50 AM

Let me just say this,

You're making this build more of a emotional thing than a learning experiance lol, get into how engines work, how to make them efficient, thermo and fluid dynamics, pressures, compression ratios, cam timing, ignition timing, fuel, injector placement, intake and exhaust manifold tuning (very important), etc.

Don't worry about camshafts and aftermarket bolt ons, custom will always give you the best gain, from there, don't listen to what anyone says "b series is the best, ignore d motors, their SOHC and crap"

To be honest, B series would be the way to go in my eyes as I have been down the track of trying to make a not so fast engine go fast, hell yeah I saw good gains, but at the end of the day a stock K series will just blow me away, simply because my motor never had the real development there.

N/A isn't easy to make power, you need money unless you really know what you're doing.

If you were going to do a D build for sure, custom pistons, rods, manifolds, ALOT of headwork, big cam, lightened flywheel, short ratio box and it will go good.

Reason I said custom rods/pistons, design a combination that will allow you to rev into the high rpms, then you need to look into things such as harmonic vibrations that can cause cracks such as a block in half caused by reaching this HV limit (happens in many built drag motors)

EG5[KRT]

03-09-2007, 10:26 AM

good luck with it !

philBo

03-09-2007, 10:39 AM

hondavti25

03-09-2007, 10:52 AM

Hey mate i own a D series to and after all the research ive found only 2 options.
1 barefoots suggestion is the ultimate bolt on TURBO D FTW!
2 B Conversion with basic bolt ons

But on a second opinon a quick NA D series would be different to see. Either way good luck mate!

krogoth

03-09-2007, 11:58 AM

LOL @ u. you're making it sound like your dream is to abolish slavery or to climb mt everist or something. hahaha but yeah, good luck with your build. itd be a good experience i guess.

lawlz

screw the b16, has more potential but its an overworn shoe

work ur na d, then wen ur bored of its NA power, get a turbo kit

they respond very well to turbo

muhhan

03-09-2007, 02:00 PM

ok here are some inputs for you.
(considering if you want to use another d-series block)

d16a6 block (bored) from '91 crx si
d16a6 piston (for longer stroke)
d17a7 crankshaft (94.4mm stroke) from '04 civic
d17 rods with high-strength ARP rod bolts
d17 oil pump, oil pan, oil pick up and main cap seal
d17 timing bet pulley
d16a6 crank pulley (bored and re-keyed to match the d17 crankshaft snout)
port and polish

this will give you 13.2:1 compression ratio.

for the head, you can use any aggressive cam to match it up. obviously, titanium springs, and retainers, lightened flywheel and clutch.

fuel pressure reg upgrade, and fuel rail. CAI and cam gear upgrade.

D16y8 intake manifold (is the better one amongst the d series')

some people reached 171.1 hp @ 7600 RPM.

long live super-D! :thumbsup:

Thanks for that info blk_shadow. Any particular reason for the D16a6 block? If using the D17 oil pump I hear there are issues with incorporating a dipstick into it. Is that a problem? Does the D17 crank drop straight into the D16 block, so no work needs to be done to the journals?

13.2:1 compression ratio! Do you know what fuel people run with this combination? That seems mighty high.

Which head do you recommend? D16A6 or whatever takes your fancy? Worth paying attention to combustion chamber and port design I guess.

That power figure is promising! Do you know what application these guys had in mind for their cars? Obviously when selecting a cam you can't go too wild if its for street otherwise idle would be too rough, if you could maintain it. Do you know what camshafts these guys were running and if there were any clearance issues? Any links to the builds?

philBo, and what if I don't agree with slavery?

TR53XX, thanks for your input. I appreciate it. Creating a combination that would quickly rev into the high rpm range is akin to a track car. With the suggestions you had in mind would you still get decent push in the mid rpm range or once it dropped passed a certain limit the car would start to drag? As for being emotional, while I was expecting it I was just fed up at people canning my build so I was speaking from the heart.

I'm keen to pull an engine apart even if it's just for kicks. Thanks for the support.

Waggy

03-09-2007, 03:54 PM

Building a D series for N/A will be a very expensive and unsatisfying path to take. I respect that you really really want to follow your dream of building what you want (which, in the end, as long as your happy, it doesn't matter), but if you want to have power, whack a decent turbo kit on it and call it a day.

If you're wanting to take your car further, B16/18/20 conversion would be the next step. My car is a built N/A B16A and, when it gets tuned, will put down very decent power for about the same money that you're looking at spending on a D series.

I respect the little D, they are great engines for boosting (and going nuts with because that are so cheap to replace). But they aren't much good for anything else. PM NerV, he has a great turbo setup on his D and makes VERY good power!! He's a great guy and will be happy to help you out with more info.

bennjamin

03-09-2007, 05:14 PM

as others have mentioned , be clear from the start that this route will reap less results for more money. But it will be unique so thats the reason i guess ? Good on ya :)
This will be the story soon for B series engines too....dam K's popping up everywhere.

Waggy

03-09-2007, 05:39 PM

B-series is still the best bang for buck. The K-series is really only for people who want the best of everything. K's are great (and also still $15k after you add all the extra shit and "misc parts" into it), but I'd sooner drop $5k on a B18C-R and use the extra left over on a nice turbo kit or some simple N/A bolt ons.

Depends on where you are in life I guess. Wanna spend every dollar on your car, or do you need your money for other stuff as well?

TR53XX

03-09-2007, 07:41 PM

Port design and combustion chamber shape are very important, I don't know if it differes much between D-series heads.

Big cams, don't worry about idle, it's not so much the case these days with EFI, tuning fixes it, the old days with carb and hot cams idles were rough as guts.

Yea it's cool the way you talk, at least you're not some try hard who talks SMS too.. heheh

d15z1SUX

03-09-2007, 07:44 PM

www.d-series.org if you don't already know that site.

Joel The Mole

03-09-2007, 08:33 PM

do it!!!! will be sick, and different.

good luck mate, hope it turns out good for u

muhhan

03-09-2007, 09:21 PM

Waggy & benjammin, yes, I'm fully aware that bang for buck wise turboing or engine swap is a lot more cost effective. If there's one thing I've learned so far it is all about combination, combination, combination.

TR53XX, I believe that there is some difference between the D16Y8 head and the D16Z6 head. On a technical level I'm not sure what the difference is but from what I've researched the Y8 head supports mid range torque where as the Z6 supports top end power and essentially has a higher potential. I think they call the port design in the D16Y8 head a swirl port. The Y8 head has a smaller combustion chamber but the design is suppose to reduce the likelihood of detonation. I saw this as a plus for reliability. Thanks for the info about the idle on the wild cams. A lot of the info I've been reading about cams has been from the US from guys like CraneCams so I've been trying to figure out what's relevant for the Hondas.

Since one of my goals was to have a strong, broad power band would you recommend that I choose some components that support midrange torque while others promote top end power? For example, the camshaft I was looking at, Crower stage 2, is beginning to get a little lumpy and would promote power production in the top end of the rev range. Given my goal for street-usable power would you choose the Y8 head for its support of the midrange or the Z6 head for its high end flow potential?

d15z1SUX, I've got that site bookmarked already. It's a goldmine and I use it a lot (if you hadn't guessed, a lot of the basis for my build had come from that forum), but I was hoping to get some Aussie specific info here.

If you were running a compression ratio in the low to mid 12's would you recommend aftermarket rods? One guideline I have is if you're making more than 50hp over stock on the D-series you should consider forged rods, otherwise if the overall power output is going to be less than 50hp over stock shot peening will be enough insurance. Any comment on this?

Does anyone have any experience with a 76mm bore (standard 75mm)? Would this compromise the integrity of the cylinders?

blk_shadow

03-09-2007, 10:20 PM

Thanks for that info blk_shadow. Any particular reason for the D16a6 block? If using the D17 oil pump I hear there are issues with incorporating a dipstick into it. Is that a problem? Does the D17 crank drop straight into the D16 block, so no work needs to be done to the journals?

13.2:1 compression ratio! Do you know what fuel people run with this combination? That seems mighty high.

Which head do you recommend? D16A6 or whatever takes your fancy? Worth paying attention to combustion chamber and port design I guess.

That power figure is promising! Do you know what application these guys had in mind for their cars? Obviously when selecting a cam you can't go too wild if its for street otherwise idle would be too rough, if you could maintain it. Do you know what camshafts these guys were running and if there were any clearance issues? Any links to the builds?

the reason of using a d16a6 block is because the d16a6 head is able to produce such power output compared to the other d-series.
its better to use the same head with the block to avoid complex oil galley holes dont match up, or different head bolt pattern etc.

the only problem with using d17 oil pump is you gotta use the oil pan, oil pick up and main cap seal. now the d17 oil pan sits lower than usual. so to avoid the oil pan being smashed which in turn blocks the oil to the pick up and losing pressure and blown engine, you will need to take some of the materials off.

the crank will be not so hard to fit, the only thing is, by using the d17 piston, rod and crank on the d16 block is you need to notch (slightly) the block for rod clearance for the bigger crank.

and the crank snout is bigger, so the crank pulley will need to be slightly modified as well.

that's correct, for the compression ratio to be that high, you need to play with the cylinder head. most people build up the material around the combustion chamber and then reshaped it to improve combustion efficiency and compression.
and then obviously ported and polished of the cylinder head.

some people I know are using Gude cams (personal preference) with Gude valve springs and titanium retainers. plus AEM fuel pressure reg, fuel rail, and EMS.

unfortunately, there are no links for this build. I know from some of my mates before, they used to build D series' engine.

hope this helps:thumbsup:

NeRV

03-09-2007, 10:45 PM

Don't get the z6 head mixed up with our y1, when i was searching for arp headstuds the z6's head is slightly larger then the Y-series heads.. even though the specs are very similar. But good luck on your build buddy.

TR53XX

03-09-2007, 11:10 PM

Go for the CC design that quenches detonation, don't worry about ports, they can be altered.

As for going high comp and rods, they arn't in relation to one another, apart from stress on the rod due to higher cylinder pressures. Raising compression ratio helps ability to produce hp, although it's mainly for torque and throttle response.

As for designing a motor that will have midrange torque, sorry although you've chosen the wrong motor, you need to go up in the CC's if you want to have decent torque. The smaller 1.6 motors need to rev their **** off to get moving. Regardless of this point;

Midrange torque is best achieved by, high lift, medium duration camshafts, ITB's (excellent for torque and throttle response) and agressive ignition timing suited to a high compression ratio.

Be careful with the camshaft you pick, this will entail where you will see power.

Try to keep velocities high in the low rpm range, as if you go too slow, you loose it and gain it in higher RPM's.

There is alot more I can talk about, it's mainly in the headwork, don't worry so much about rods and pistons, forged will be fine, N/A has a very linnear power output unlike turbo's where they produce alot of torque in one instance.

d15z1SUX

03-09-2007, 11:40 PM

my head is spinning reading this. so many combos. lol.

blk_shadow

04-09-2007, 07:49 AM

the problem with d17 head is, is not capable of producing that power output as the d16a6 head, and the solution of matching the d16a6 head to d17 block is not feasible due to unmatch design.

furthermore, the d17 can only use its original intake manifold which is really restrictive. the best one is from y8, now the y8 will match easily to d16a6 head. that is why the solution is stuffing up all the internals from d17 to a d16a6 block. :thumbsup:

krogoth

04-09-2007, 09:11 AM

y is it the d17 can only use its original intake manifold?

has it been permamently attached to the head?

if so, how is it attached? ther must be a way of ripping it off, lol

blk_shadow

04-09-2007, 09:52 AM

y is it the d17 can only use its original intake manifold?

has it been permamently attached to the head?

if so, how is it attached? ther must be a way of ripping it off, lol

ITS THE PORT DESIGN THAT MAKES IT LIKE THAT, UNFORTUNATELY

TR53XX

04-09-2007, 11:17 AM

Heard of a custom intake manifold ?.....

blk_shadow

04-09-2007, 12:32 PM

Heard of a custom intake manifold ?.....

yeah, but that will be more money LOL

TR53XX

04-09-2007, 01:05 PM

lol true,

But he is after max power and torque in the midrange, which means custom manifolds tuned to make peak torque at a given rpm decided by the tuner.

blk_shadow

05-09-2007, 07:49 AM

lol true,

But he is after max power and torque in the midrange, which means custom manifolds tuned to make peak torque at a given rpm decided by the tuner.

that's true too :)
its all depends on the tuner.

Chr1s

05-09-2007, 08:08 AM

No, the tuner can only do so much like ignition timing, fuel ratios, etc.

The tuner won't be able to make the car decide where the helmholtz frequency is strongest at. What I mean by tuned manifolds is, the length and size of the runner is "tuned" to the engine at a given rpm, once that rpm is reached, the air inside the intake runners (or exhaust) are making pulses, too fast to be noticed or heard by our ear, when the air flowing towards the valve (once open) and negative pressure in the cylinder (down stroke intake) the air is "rammed" in creating a super charged like effect.

On some intakes it has been seen to see up to 10psi on intake boost. But you need alot of money to achieve that lol

I'm that tr53xx dude bdw.

ZeForce

05-09-2007, 01:37 PM

On some intakes it has been seen to see up to 10psi on intake boost. But you need alot of money to achieve that lol

I call bullshit

Chr1s

05-09-2007, 02:20 PM

ZeForce

05-09-2007, 02:33 PM

lol, I don't want to start a flame on here about the sciences of intake design. But i've done plenty research on fluid and thermo dynamics within the topic.

Intake boost CAN be achieved, end of story, I found it hard to beleive also, but it is possible with enough research and development.

PS: Mind you this is not throughout a rev range, intake boost can only be applied at a certain powerband.

I do not doubt this at all, with the proper set up it is indeed possible to acheive greater than 100% volumetric efficiencies at certain RPM, which is what Im assume you mean by 'intake boost'. However, I cant see it being large enough to measure accurately in terms of 'psi' or equivalent units and "10psi" is no where near a realistic figure.

Chr1s

05-09-2007, 02:36 PM

I meant boost, as in PSI.

Nearly all cars out there today run over 100% VE at a certain rpm.

blk_shadow

05-09-2007, 04:00 PM

The tuner won't be able to make the car decide where the helmholtz frequency is strongest at. What I mean by tuned manifolds is, the length and size of the runner is "tuned" to the engine at a given rpm, once that rpm is reached, the air inside the intake runners (or exhaust) are making pulses, too fast to be noticed or heard by our ear, when the air flowing towards the valve (once open) and negative pressure in the cylinder (down stroke intake) the air is "rammed" in creating a super charged like effect.

On some intakes it has been seen to see up to 10psi on intake boost. But you need alot of money to achieve that lol

I'm that tr53xx dude bdw.

YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I MEAN BY UP TO THE TUNER, ON DEVELOPING THE IM.:)

muhhan

09-09-2007, 04:28 PM

blk_shadow, I've read that the crank bolts into the D16 blocks with very little problem, but I wasn't aware of the oil supply issues. Is it definitely not possible to use the oil pan from the D16 block because of the oil pump and pick up design?

I had a feeling the block would need a bit of massaging with the D17 internals running in it.

Were these guys running wild port and polish jobs? For example, very smoothed combustion chambers, oversized valves, mirror-like port finishes, opened up ports like a bull with its nostrils flared? And were these engines drinking avgas?

What sort of fuel injectors are being run on these engines? Design and volume output wise.

The build that you've been describing fills me with confidence on the strength of the D-series parts if nothing else.

NerV, thanks for the advice about the head studs. I'm a stickler for detail so I'd really be kicking myself if I buggered something like that up.

TR53XX (Chr1s), the camshaft I was looking at has a duration of 204 degrees on the primary and secondary intake lobes and 235 degrees on the mid (vtec) lobe and 223 degrees on the exhaust lobe, all at .050" lift of course. Compared to stock, according to the Crower website, which has a 218 degree on the intake lobe (mid lobe, presumably) and 204 degree on the exhaust lobe. I'm not sure exactly where the Crower camshaft makes its power and it would depend on so many other factors, but at a guess I'd say that it would be promoting power closer to 7000rpm since the stock D16Y8 makes peak power at around 6600rpm. In the scheme of things are these durations what you would call 'medium durations'?

Also, the gross lift on the Crower camshaft is .332" on primary and secondary intake lobe and .432" on mid (vtec) lobe. Exhaust is .436". The gross lift was calculated using a rocker ratio of 1.6 on intake and 1.8 on exhaust. Are these pretty accurate estimates of the rocker ratios in the D-series? Compared to stock these figures are .035" higher on mid intake lobe and .069" higher on exhaust.

I was hoping to gain a bit of the low to mid range back with the increased compression ratio. As for air flow, I was hoping that I will be able to find a guy who can do a valve job that will promote really good low lift flow. From my research, by ensuring there is excellent flow at low valve lift the engine (particularly NA) responds really well compared to aiming for max flow at max lift as the valves spend little time at their max lift.

As for intake manifold design, I'm aware of the helmholtz effect, however, I have to admit that I do not have the engineering background or computer simulation software to develop that sort of thing. Also, I'm unlikely to be sitting on one particular rpm to get an appreciable effect from such a highly tuned intake manifold. However, from the info I have high rpm power is favoured by an intake manifold with relatively short runners where as mid range torque is promoted by an intake manifold with longer runners. Is this correct?

I feel there are plenty of good quality 'off the shelf' products on the market to choose from, even for the aging D-series. It's just a matter of using the basic principles to find out what the strengths and weaknesses of each product design is and choosing a combination of parts to suit.

Thanks for the input guys.

Chr1s

09-09-2007, 05:49 PM

that cam is ok

you can design intake runners without complex computer software, it's called formula's and don't gimme that about no engineering experiance, im only 17 dude, if your willing to learn, you will :)

you are right about the runners yes, and when i mean tuned, it's not as if at 5500rpm for example you have max power then it drops off 20kw or something, it continues that power through a powerband, if you design it good, can be as long as 5,000rpm (many reflections acting in one area)

just don't design the car to make power down low because you will kick yourself in the head when your power starts to drop off severly at 6000rpm, i'd design it as peak power is made at 7k and drops off slowly until shift point 8k with a huge amount of midrange torque from 3.5k+

muhhan

09-09-2007, 09:17 PM

OK, thanks Chr1s. You've been heaps of help. Have you had any personal experience with the Crower cams? Not only with how they make power, but also with their reliability and ease of fitment?

Also, how many intakes have you designed using formulas? I was under the impression that it either required a lot of experience or computer modelling because of all the slight variations in combinations that a particular engine may have.

Chr1s

09-09-2007, 09:54 PM

There is programs out there that you can use regarding how the engine will behave, although you need to know every aspect of the engine.

I've been through about 5 different intake setups using my formula's, experianced people agree with my results although NOTHING can ever beat dyno time and testing out different designs.

With camshafts, all the camshafts I have used are custom ground to my spec for my particular liking. How do you mean reliability of camshaft and fitment ?

Installing a camshaft is the same..reliability depends on material and if it is reground or not, billet camshafts are generally hardened using heat treatment and last longer than reground camshaft (which have a smaller base circle so steer clear, only use for testing)

BDW, the intake design STRONGLY works off the camshaft. so select the camshaft before you design your intake.

ZeForce

09-09-2007, 09:59 PM

just don't design the car to make power down low because you will kick yourself in the head when your power starts to drop off severly at 6000rpm, i'd design it as peak power is made at 7k and drops off slowly until shift point 8k with a huge amount of midrange torque from 3.5k+

Sounds alot like what the average B20VTEC would give you...

Chr1s

09-09-2007, 10:02 PM

Yea,

Look dude, honestly, I wouldnt bother with the D series unless boosting it.

It wasn't made to make alot of power N/A to begin with. Buy a decent motor from Day 1 and it will be fast when you're done.

tttrrruuusstt me...I went from making an OK motor go fast to selling it and doing a K20/24 frank. I learnt my lesson the expensive way.

SHI-FTY

26-09-2007, 02:52 AM

dude seriously u need 2 cams for power d16's have no potential, b16a's are great but its a died out thing to do now as every1s doin it... a h22 swap is wat im goin 4 dey are machines..

beeza

26-09-2007, 12:16 PM

Just do what ya wanna do man (which I'm sure your doing anyways :)).Everyone has an opinion,that's cool.I'm sure your not looking for the fastest thing out there,just a custom fast car.D-series.org is a goldmine,I was a member there for a year.They hear the same argument too.Why bother building a d Go b series.It's because they want something different.Everyone goes b....
Nothing compares to a build uniquely build N/A d.Sweeeeeet :)
Just as long as you will be satisfied with the power output.Ofcoarse it will be fast but b's will still beat you....but not always.
Have you joined d-series.org.The guys on there are very helpful if you have any questions and if you make a few posts etc they will be able to help you get cheap parts.It's a lot cheaper over there.
I've got a d16y4.I love it.I don't want a real fast car,I'm satisfied with the power mine makes.
Good luck with ya build,well done.
Go the d WOOT WOOT!!!

aimre

26-09-2007, 04:53 PM

The B-series wont satisfy you.

Fixed

d15z1SUX

26-09-2007, 09:49 PM

well if u look at it this way d-series are still good. what other single cam engine of the same capacity can match them? they basically make dohc power with one cam only. well if you compare them to engines of other make and similar capacity.

blk_shadow

28-09-2007, 12:18 AM

ralph_ef9

28-09-2007, 02:38 AM

im building my d16a8 for my ef3 civic...i think they are all right...build a d16 is a lot of money (i bought cams and quads intake and valve spring and a motec euc....i already spent 4000.and i think i still need another 2-3000 to start my engine)and im still looking for dome piston and some small parts for my d...but if i swap a b18c when i start,can save me a lot....but i know what im doing,we are building a N/A engine,thats a lot of fun...the only bad thing is we spend a little more.....
good luck man.....best wish for our d!!!!!

qikteg

23-11-2007, 12:26 PM

where'd you get the quads?

tekung89

23-11-2007, 01:00 PM

someone will build a D to be as fast/faster then a B, then someone else will make a B fast/faster then a K lol. then that K will wanna smash everything until its rival comes about LOL

good luck with the build

VT1-R

25-11-2007, 10:11 PM

D series is really gonna cost u money to hit 100kw. Since its your dream and doing it urself, then go for it.

Just to let u noe, On a conservative dyno, in AUTO SALON 07 in PERTH, i saw a B16 powered EG with more than jus bolt on and he made about 96kw atw which would go pass the 100kw mark if on a average dyno. So what i am saying is, 100kw is rather high and achieving it in a D series is possible but at the expense of lots of money and time.

And maybe 3mths down the road, you realize that extracting power is really hard and costly and it may be too late, leading you to spiralling cost and other unpredicted cost needed to hit that 100kw. Extracting power from N/A is hard, that was what ppl always tell me for my B16a, imagine that in a D16 to hit 100kw without a turbo? The amount you spend to hit that 100kw would probably give u a K20/24 into your car hitting 12+-13 sec straight up.

I advise you to think carefully before doing it. Not here to put u down but to give u a recount of whats involved in what you plan to do. At the end of the day, an All MOTOR D series can never beat an ALL MOTOR B series, given the same amount of budget to mod it. This is the same for B & K series as well.

I say if you are not looking for massive power, but jus an experience and having fun then good luck mate. I wish u the best.

d15z1SUX

27-02-2008, 07:51 PM

hey just wondering if muhhan managed to finish this build?

blk_shadow

27-02-2008, 07:54 PM

D series is really gonna cost u money to hit 100kw.

know wht u meant, I did mine and it hit 80 kw atw with stock internals.

EG5[KRT]

27-02-2008, 08:45 PM

i think everyone knows its going fast cost money.. so i think everyone should let muhhan do what he wants to do and any valuable input be said...

[ricer]

27-02-2008, 09:07 PM

someone will build a D to be as fast/faster then a B, then someone else will make a B fast/faster then a K lol. then that K will wanna smash everything until its rival comes about LOL

lol no matter how fast u r theres always gonna be someone out there faster sooner or later

d15z1SUX

27-02-2008, 09:59 PM

the most important thing is that you are happy in the end. im kinda considering a d series swap. less than 1.5k for 38hp increase in my case.

SeverAMV

28-02-2008, 12:58 AM

dudes, its not as expensive as you guys think.
head to onecamonly.com and you can get this stuff in relatively cheap packages. all motor high compression kit with forged p29 pistons for $300, complete kms valvetrain with blockguard for $600 (rated at 10krpm), camshaft from bisimoto engineering will set you back 300. you might think it wont get you much power, but for less than 2k all up, you can make 120fwkw suprisingly easy. and then if you go crazy american style and convert to quad carbs, you can make around 150fwkw, which is pretty good for a d series. mine's currently going through said rebuild, and i should be getting my car back soon. i'll put my quad carbs in after i've complete run in the engine. but yeah, you can make as much power, if not more than a b series if you know where to look.

oh and @original post, you wont get 1mm piston to head clearance with p29s. p29s are domed, but theyre the same height overall as pm3, so you'll still get about 4mm piston to head clearance unless you do some shaving. its not so much the compression from the dome shape that improves power at that stage tho, its the swirl physics.