5th Gear FD2R v FN2R

[Wazza]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjgYBL8IET4

Comments;
-FD2R convincingly beat the FN2R by three seconds
-Harsh ride of FD2R
-Understeer on FN2R due to lack of LSD
-FD2R hydraulic steering superior to FN2R electronic steering
-5000 pounds difference in price

Enjoy....

[DropBear]

Nice find! Thumbs up for posted the link!

Great that they compared them, this will certainly settle a lot of arguments (or start new ones!)

[ozR18]

FD2R yay!!

[|N|]

um... there somehting not right with her driving...

[Encor3]

is it just me or is she really close to the steering wheel?

[6ary]

is it just me or is she really close to the steering wheel?

Thats a proper driving seating position from what I learnt

Result was expected of course.. more power, better brakes and LSD

[aaronng]

is it just me or is she really close to the steering wheel?

That is how close you are meant to sit if you are on the track. :)

[aaronng]

More comments:
-FD2R ahead by 0.5s by the first corner
-FD2R ahead by 2.0s by half the lap
-FD2R ahead by 3.5s at the end.

FD2R > FN2R. :)

[Fr3aKi3]

is it just me or is she really close to the steering wheel?

Might seem weird but she's not just a TV presenter she's actually a Pro race driver.

[JaCe]

Gee that was a hard one to predict lol..

[Chris_typer]

That was really good..well obviously the FD2R is faster, still prefer my civic to be honest..as she said the suspension is like rock solid so for general driving which I do during day..the civic is already quite stiff and as she said the FD2 is even stiffer so yeh.. the FD2 is still a really nice car and I wouldn't mind stealing the brembo's off it lol.

Overall the FN2 still performs quite well against the FD2, as it doesn't have an LSD nor does it have hydrolic suspension and the difference is only 3.5's considering the power advantage the FD2 has over the FN2..the FN2 doesn't perform too badly.

[andiiso]

That was really good..well obviously the FD2R is faster, still prefer my civic to be honest..as she said the suspension is like rock solid so for general driving which I do during day..the civic is already quite stiff and as she said the FD2 is even stiffer so yeh.. the FD2 is still a really nice car and I wouldn't mind stealing the brembo's off it lol.

Overall the FN2 still performs quite well against the FD2, as it doesn't have an LSD nor does it have hydrolic suspension and the difference is only 3.5's considering the power advantage the FD2 has over the FN2..the FN2 doesn't perform too badly.

i agree with that how the FN2R performs quite well in regards with it not having LSD and stiffer suspension etc .. but in my view with the rock hard suspension, i wouldnt be looking for comfort (ride wise) in any of the race bred Type R's (dc2, ek9 and so on). It cost about 50k or something around that mark for the FD2R and if i were for comfort i would be goin for something like BMW or something in that price range. :thumbsup:

[6ary]

i agree with that how the FN2R performs quite well in regards with it not having LSD and stiffer suspension etc .. but in my view with the rock hard suspension, i wouldnt be looking for comfort (ride wise) in any of the race bred Type R's (dc2, ek9 and so on). It cost about 50k or something around that mark for the FD2R and if i were for comfort i would be goin for something like BMW or something in that price range. :thumbsup:

True that honda have gone a little soft on their typeR philosophy in regards to the FN2. But at 50k i much rather have an evo ix than a FD2R that looks like a vti or vti-s that you see at every turn on the road.

[Encor3]

Might seem weird but she's not just a TV presenter she's actually a Pro race driver.

yea i know shes a pro race driver.
but watchin rallies, F1 and other circuit racers, she seems quite close to it, i wasn't saying she cant drive.. just to make it clear.

back on topic :)

[Philip Lee]

apart from suspension, power, lsd and brake advantage which everyone mentioned, FD2R also enjoys tyre and weight advantage. with a combination of all these, 3s diff on a relatively long track (1:20+) is acceptable i guess.

[UNLS1]

thats a great comparison!

Remembering if the jap one was to come here it wouldnt be 39,990 it would be alot more, and u would expect more power, better breaks and LSD for alot more!

Both great cars!

[fasthonda]

As expected,the JDM version was faster.Can you imagine if a limited number came to Australia and were tested by Aussie reviewers?The first whinge would be about the hard suspension and how the ride isn't compliant as the GTI Golf;).Anyways,the JDM version would be ideal as a track car, as a daily driver,who knows?
The comparision was ok,but I would've preferred a comparision with turbo charged cars such as the Megane F1 230,Astra VXR,Audi S3 maybe even the V6 Golf R32.

[ekhybrid]

That was really good..well obviously the FD2R is faster, still prefer my civic to be honest..as she said the suspension is like rock solid so for general driving which I do during day..the civic is already quite stiff and as she said the FD2 is even stiffer so yeh.. the FD2 is still a really nice car and I wouldn't mind stealing the brembo's off it lol.

Overall the FN2 still performs quite well against the FD2, as it doesn't have an LSD nor does it have hydrolic suspension and the difference is only 3.5's considering the power advantage the FD2 has over the FN2..the FN2 doesn't perform too badly.

ONLY 3.5 sec
stop trying to make urself feel better
get over it

[Chris_typer]

ONLY 3.5 sec
stop trying to make urself feel better
get over it

Stating fact buddy..and i dont have to make myself feel better, I feel good about my car anyway regardless of what reviews say.

[ekhybrid]

Stating fact buddy..

and wat is that?

[aaronng]

thats a great comparison!

Remembering if the jap one was to come here it wouldnt be 39,990 it would be alot more, and u would expect more power, better breaks and LSD for alot more!

Both great cars!

Why so? The UK CTR has an RRP of UKP18,000 (AU$42,250), while the Jap CTR is JPY2,835,000 (AU$28,770). Are you saying that Honda Australia is able to bring in the UK CTR at same RRP in UK, but can't do the same with the JDM CTR eventhough shipping from Japan is cheaper than shipping from UK?

[PaZzMaN-R]

man the jdm ctr is pron!
just love it to bits. its deffinatly a firm ride by the looks of things, that makes me happy:)

[EK4R]

Why so? The UK CTR has an RRP of UKP18,000 (AU$42,250), while the Jap CTR is JPY2,835,000 (AU$28,770). Are you saying that Honda Australia is able to bring in the UK CTR at same RRP in UK, but can't do the same with the JDM CTR eventhough shipping from Japan is cheaper than shipping from UK?

yeah thats strange. but if JDM CTR do arrive in OZ, the price would be put all the way up to 40+ i reckon because they wouldnt want people to buy the jdm only. OZ australia probably make a even bigger profit this way...more reason to bring it in

[aaronng]

yeah thats strange. but if JDM CTR do arrive in OZ, the price would be put all the way up to 40+ i reckon because they wouldnt want people to buy the jdm only. OZ australia probably make a even bigger profit this way...more reason to bring it in

If they want to sell it at 40+k, heck, let's just say 50K, at least bring it in JDM spec and not watered down stuff. Malaysia has gotten the JDM spec and Honda engineers said that the engine will run on 97RON without problems, maybe only a slight power loss. So on our 98RON and 100RON, the JDM CTR will be fine as well.

With all the hype building up on the FD2R and the good publicity it is getting from Japan and the UK, it will sell better here even with the stiff suspension. It's stiff compared to a stock car. When compared to a car with coils, it is SOFT. The JDM CTR still has only about 5-6 kg/mm springs, which are very soft compared to what we run (I use 10 kg/mm, and some DC2R boys (and gals) would be running at least 16 kg/mm).

[Philip Lee]

Why so? The UK CTR has an RRP of UKP18,000 (AU$42,250), while the Jap CTR is JPY2,835,000 (AU$28,770). Are you saying that Honda Australia is able to bring in the UK CTR at same RRP in UK, but can't do the same with the JDM CTR eventhough shipping from Japan is cheaper than shipping from UK?

well i guess u also need to look at the price for other Japan sourced cars.

eg. the odyssey is selling around 2,500,000 yen for a medium model without leather but includes other goodies like Sat Nav. given the ex-rate from your calc for FD2 above, it's roughly AUD$25,380 and yet the base car here sells for mid 30k.

if the odyssey example applies for FD2R, i think it's fair to estimate the rrp would be higher than FN2.

[EK4R]

my point exactly. more the reason to bring in the jdm

[krogoth]

nice find

i still love the fn, looks very unique and very hot hatchish

love the fd and i now it out performs the fn but it looks like any other civic, since ther are so many of them now

[Tofu]

those that owns a FD civic, does anyone find the car to be long??

I still can't comprehend how the body, chassis of the FD civic can be a good/great handling car even with all those suspension tweeks on the TypeR model...sure it's lighter, but it's just feels so LONG...

[Philip Lee]

from the spec, FD civic is longer than an Accord Euro but has a shorter wheelbase. wheelbase has more influence on handling than length of the car itself.

[aaronng]

well i guess u also need to look at the price for other Japan sourced cars.

eg. the odyssey is selling around 2,500,000 yen for a medium model without leather but includes other goodies like Sat Nav. given the ex-rate from your calc for FD2 above, it's roughly AUD$25,380 and yet the base car here sells for mid 30k.

if the odyssey example applies for FD2R, i think it's fair to estimate the rrp would be higher than FN2.
Mid 30k is fine. An AU$10,000 premium is fine to me for bringing in a car from Japan and costs to cover stuff like modifications for compliancing. But IF the FD2R comes here and if they price it the same as the DC5R, I don't think many will sit down knowing that Honda Australia is pulling a $22,000 premium on us!

So your reasoning is because companies are already charging us more for cars that cost less, that it is alright for them to keep on doing so?

[Tofu]

from the spec, FD civic is longer than an Accord Euro but has a shorter wheelbase. wheelbase has more influence on handling than length of the car itself.

what about weight distribution from the overhangs?

[Philip Lee]

Mid 30k is fine. An AU$10,000 premium is fine to me for bringing in a car from Japan and costs to cover stuff like modifications for compliancing. But IF the FD2R comes here and if they price it the same as the DC5R, I don't think many will sit down knowing that Honda Australia is pulling a $22,000 premium on us!

So your reasoning is because companies are already charging us more for cars that cost less, that it is alright for them to keep on doing so?

well i dun think it's correct. but we also need to take into accounts things like local customs, tax and duties (eg. GST) which is on top of what Honda Aus is paying for the stocks.

my example above is based on my obversation of what's happening. i do not agree or disagree with Honda Aus's pricing strategy.

[Philip Lee]

what about weight distribution from the overhangs?

sorry i made a mistake. i re-checked the spec again and CL7 Accord Euro is longer overall (slightly) but FD2 has longer wheelbase. also CL7 is at least 50kg heavier than the FD2R.

[aaronng]

well i dun think it's correct. but we also need to take into accounts things like local customs, tax and duties (eg. GST) which is on top of what Honda Aus is paying for the stocks.

my example above is based on my obversation of what's happening. i do not agree or disagree with Honda Aus's pricing strategy.

Well, the RRP of the car is above cost. Cost price could be a few thousand dollars less. And Honda Australia is already pricing cars like the Euro up by $10,000 and DC5R by $22,000. That is ABOVE the RRP price. I'm sure shipping, tax and duties don't come up to 78% of a car's RRP price. :)

[Philip Lee]

one more thing to take into consideration - foreign exchange flutation.

anyway this is a complex issue. like why cars in US is cheaper than here? when both require shipping. i guess the larger population accounts for something but certainly not all.

but we're going really OT now.

[jamchen]

one more thing to take into consideration - foreign exchange flutation.

anyway this is a complex issue. like why cars in US is cheaper than here? when both require shipping. i guess the larger population accounts for something but certainly not all.

but we're going really OT now.

sure it would have some influences... but here is another example...
The MDX was introduced to both Oz and Japan market around the same time, here you get RRP of 69,990 + on roads... Whereas in Japan it was around 5 mill yen ( and keep in mind that was a top range with SatNav and reverse camera and others)...
And the fact that both cars were made in Canada plant...:thumbdwn:

Having said that, once owned a MDX and loved it very much!:thumbsup:

[ginganggooly]

Stating fact buddy..and i dont have to make myself feel better, I feel good about my car anyway regardless of what reviews say.

Come on mate, you've been justifying your purchase in almost every ctr thread. I can't help but feel you're suffering buyers remorse to some degree.

You reckon it's a great car, and all power to you. Personally i think it's a nugget... :thumbsup:

[jenova]

Well, the RRP of the car is above cost. Cost price could be a few thousand dollars less. And Honda Australia is already pricing cars like the Euro up by $10,000 and DC5R by $22,000. That is ABOVE the RRP price. I'm sure shipping, tax and duties don't come up to 78% of a car's RRP price. :)

The government has to protect the local car manufacturers too.

[aaronng]

The government has to protect the local car manufacturers too.

Protection comes from the restriction on importing cars from other countries. :)

[EG5[KRT]]

vid not working :(

[drsilliez]

;1359680']vid not working :(

yeah not working as well....but i found this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eml1sD5z3KQ
i think its the same clip

[JaCe]

Protection comes from the restriction on importing cars from other countries. :)

I think that protection was (implied to be) included in the markup amount over the 'cost to produce' (not the cost to Honda Australia).

[slipn]

If they do bring it in how can they possibly have two different type Rs for sale??

That review was great btw, been waiting for this comparisin for a while now. I still love the JDM version. Its what the type R badge is all about, Light weight and an all around drivers car And it looks like a Japanese car.

[aaronng]

I think that protection was (implied to be) included in the markup amount over the 'cost to produce' (not the cost to Honda Australia).

The markup goes into Honda Australia's pockets. Not the governments. The protection offered by the government is in the form of duties/import taxes and the fact that most car models are restricted from being imported.

[JaCe]

The markup goes into Honda Australia's pockets. Not the governments. The protection offered by the government is in the form of duties/import taxes and the fact that most car models are restricted from being imported.

I think my post made it sound like I was challenging you when really I was adding to your comment;
"I'm sure shipping, tax and duties don't come up to 78% of a car's RRP price. "

... and then saying that the significant price increase over the RRP in the domestic country is inclusive of the protection markup. That is, even though the price may seem very high compared to the RRP, it's not ALL going into Honda's pockets (well, it doesn't end up in Honda's pockets).

[aaronng]

Ahh, okok.

I'm just miffed that Honda Australia can bring in the FN2R at a price similar to UK's RRP, while still making a profit and paying off all the taxes and import duties but can't/won't do something similar with the FD2R. Ok, let's give Honda Australia a $10,000 additional profit for each FD2R when compared to the FN2R. I still don't think they will bring in a true JDM spec model at $39,000.

[JaCe]

Ahh, okok.

I'm just miffed that Honda Australia can bring in the FN2R at a price similar to UK's RRP, while still making a profit and paying off all the taxes and import duties but can't/won't do something similar with the FD2R. Ok, let's give Honda Australia a $10,000 additional profit for each FD2R when compared to the FN2R. I still don't think they will bring in a true JDM spec model at $39,000.

Your post is essentially saying 2 things;

1. How can the FN2R be so cheap? Simply put, have you considered that maybe the UK also did a bit of a markup themselves on the CTR to pitch it at a higher market? That being said, maybe it isn't that profitable for Honda AU but they just want to get the indirect benefits such as the marketing of "Look we did bring a Type R", or "Look we have the most outrageous looking hatch on the market" (I know it's subjective).

2. Why won't they bring the FD2R? Many reasons- will the market really want such a hard car? It'll be competing with the likes of Liberty GTs and Mazda6 MPS, as well as the American cars... all of which will offer more power (on a spec sheet) and a more comfortable ride. Then there's also the question of will it steal sales away from the FN2R? Is it wise to confuse the market with TWO Civic Type R's especially when they are both relatively new cars to Australia?

IMO the FN2R killed two birds with one stone- Honda's lack of a non-sedan sports car in the sub$50k category (after the Integra was taken out) and it also let them promote the Type R badge. Put it together and they also have exclusivity going for them with purists perceiving the Type R badge as being the epitome of Honda's engineering.

Note: The above comments are my own views and thoughts; and are not intentionally reflective of anyone else's.

[Chris_typer]

Your post is essentially saying 2 things;

1. How can the FN2R be so cheap? Simply put, have you considered that maybe the UK also did a bit of a markup themselves on the CTR to pitch it at a higher market? That being said, maybe it isn't that profitable for Honda AU but they just want to get the indirect benefits such as the marketing of "Look we did bring a Type R", or "Look we have the most outrageous looking hatch on the market" (I know it's subjective).

2. Why won't they bring the FD2R? Many reasons- will the market really want such a hard car? It'll be competing with the likes of Liberty GTs and Mazda6 MPS, as well as the American cars... all of which will offer more power (on a spec sheet) and a more comfortable ride. Then there's also the question of will it steal sales away from the FN2R? Is it wise to confuse the market with TWO Civic Type R's especially when they are both relatively new cars to Australia?

IMO the FN2R killed two birds with one stone- Honda's lack of a non-sedan sports car in the sub$50k category (after the Integra was taken out) and it also let them promote the Type R badge. Put it together and they also have exclusivity going for them with purists perceiving the Type R badge as being the epitome of Honda's engineering.

Note: The above comments are my own views and thoughts; and are not intentionally reflective of anyone else's.

Yeah pretty fair comment..probably agree with you there..although it was a shame to see them stop makin the integra, ah well.

[aaronng]

Your post is essentially saying 2 things;

1. How can the FN2R be so cheap? Simply put, have you considered that maybe the UK also did a bit of a markup themselves on the CTR to pitch it at a higher market? That being said, maybe it isn't that profitable for Honda AU but they just want to get the indirect benefits such as the marketing of "Look we did bring a Type R", or "Look we have the most outrageous looking hatch on the market" (I know it's subjective).
That being said, the cost of labour and parts in the UK is very high, higher than in Australia. While it is possible with the marketing reasons that you bring up, the business case for car imports even within the company must show a profit. If there is no profit, the Honda UK R&D/Accounts department will always say no.



2. Why won't they bring the FD2R? Many reasons- will the market really want such a hard car? It'll be competing with the likes of Liberty GTs and Mazda6 MPS, as well as the American cars... all of which will offer more power (on a spec sheet) and a more comfortable ride. Then there's also the question of will it steal sales away from the FN2R? Is it wise to confuse the market with TWO Civic Type R's especially when they are both relatively new cars to Australia?
The FD2R at the same price as the FN2R ($40,000) does not go into LGT and MPS territory. And confusing with two Type Rs? One is a sedan and the other is a hatch. It's like people getting confused with a 3MPS and a 6MPS. If the public can differentiate between the sedan Accord Euro and sedan Accord, they can surely differentiate between a "CTR hatch" and "CTR sedan".



IMO the FN2R killed two birds with one stone- Honda's lack of a non-sedan sports car in the sub$50k category (after the Integra was taken out) and it also let them promote the Type R badge. Put it together and they also have exclusivity going for them with purists perceiving the Type R badge as being the epitome of Honda's engineering.

Note: The above comments are my own views and thoughts; and are not intentionally reflective of anyone else's.
There is one more bird that has not/never been killed by Honda Australia. A sedan sports car. :) Also, purists are smart enough to differentiate between a real Type R and one with just a badge.

Also, my comments are not 100% in disagreement with your views, but they are just me venting my frustration at Honda Australia since they always cite cost as a reason for not bringing in a true Type R (or FD2R) eventhough it's cheaper than the FN2R that they have brought in. If I come across sounding like a *ickhead, please forgive me.

[JaCe]

That being said, the cost of labour and parts in the UK is very high, higher than in Australia. While it is possible with the marketing reasons that you bring up, the business case for car imports even within the company must show a profit. If there is no profit, the Honda UK R&D/Accounts department will always say no.

What you say is correct, but also take into account fixed/sunk costs. Ultimately Honda UK wants to get the highest returns on the amount of capital invested in the development of the car (i.e. "sunk" costs because they cannot be taken back). In doing so, even if they make $0.01 of economic profit (that is, normal profit less opportunity cost), they will still proceed because it will be better in the long run.

I'm inclined to think from Honda Australia's point of view, they can probably negotiate a decent import price and still make a small amount of profit on it. Obviously I can't say how much, but like you said, they wouldn't do it at a loss.


The FD2R at the same price as the FN2R ($40,000) does not go into LGT and MPS territory. And confusing with two Type Rs? One is a sedan and the other is a hatch. It's like people getting confused with a 3MPS and a 6MPS. If the public can differentiate between the sedan Accord Euro and sedan Accord, they can surely differentiate between a "CTR hatch" and "CTR sedan".

I was under the impression that the FD2R if it came out here it would be priced more towards the $50k mark based on the Malaysian prices (RM200k).

We may know the difference, but how would you go about educating the public of the difference? It's not as simple as say a Ford Focus where the Hatch and Sedan are pretty similar cars, because in this case, they are totally different. I'd say this adds to confusion, and adding diversity to the product mix isn't going to have a huge impact on total sales revenue.


There is one more bird that has not/never been killed by Honda Australia. A sedan sports car. :) Also, purists are smart enough to differentiate between a real Type R and one with just a badge.

I agree with you here because, like the Evo, this car is probably targeted at the purists rather than the people who'd go for the LGT/MPS. That being said, I still think that in the $40k price bracket, it'll attract too much attention and lose the exclusivity factor which Honda needs to prevent doubling up on targeting the same market.


Also, my comments are not 100% in disagreement with your views, but they are just me venting my frustration at Honda Australia since they always cite cost as a reason for not bringing in a true Type R (or FD2R) eventhough it's cheaper than the FN2R that they have brought in. If I come across sounding like a *ickhead, please forgive me.

It's alright, but the reality is it is due to cost. But not in the same way you'er thinking.

[Philip Lee]

they can just stop bringing the FN2R after the contract for 1200 cars and switch to FD2R.

the major hurdle as far as i'm concerned is supply of FD2R and also whether Honda Aus ppl are as dedicated as the Malaysian on pushing Honda R&D.

given all the hype, i believe they can sell more FD2R than FN2R.

[aaronng]

I was under the impression that the FD2R if it came out here it would be priced more towards the $50k mark based on the Malaysian prices (RM200k).

I just hope that Honda Austrlia wakes up and gets with the plan. Every other manufacturer is ramping their image up, even Toyota with every dealership having a TRD section! One can only hope. At least they are playing their Legend ads during primetime now, caught it once last night.

The Malaysian price of RM200K includes the 170% import tariff (1800-1999cc engine displacement) because the FD2R does not qualify for the ASEAN free trade agreement since it is made in Japan.

[JaCe]

Hey Aaron, would you know about the standard FD in Malaysia? My cousins said it's subject to a lower tariff because it's locally assembled or uses local parts (or something to that effect)- any ideas?

[Philip Lee]

normal FD would have lower tariff cos i believe they're made in Thailand.

FD2R is made exclusively at Japan so the price is inflated.

[aaronng]

Hey Aaron, would you know about the standard FD in Malaysia? My cousins said it's subject to a lower tariff because it's locally assembled or uses local parts (or something to that effect)- any ideas?

Yes, the normal FD1 and FD2 are made in Thailand and are subject to AFTA tariffs, which are 5% for CBU (assembled car) and 0% for CKD (kit delivered from Thailand and assembled locally). It used to be 15% up to about 2006 for CBU because Malaysia was pulling a dodgy even after the AFTA agreement for 5% was in force.

[JaCe]

Thanks guys. Someone else told me that it was assembled in Melaka...

But anyway, thanks for the info guys. Last time I went back every FD I saw was fitted with a Mugen (replica) kit lols...

[aaronng]

Thanks guys. Someone else told me that it was assembled in Melaka...

But anyway, thanks for the info guys. Last time I went back every FD I saw was fitted with a Mugen (replica) kit lols...

It could be built in Thailand, delivered as a kit to Melaka and then assembled there just to get around that last 5% of tariffs.