Choppin springs

[traNce_gl]

hey im gettin 17 inch rims soon and it will lift my car up a bit i have king springs and i dont want to get another set or compress them but chop them..is this a wise choice who here has done it and if it's a safe thing to do... will it do harm to ur shocks and will it be a bumper ride...?

[Weq]

No, yes (probably), no, yes, yes.

[bennjamin]

Just dont do it. Full stop.

It only works on a gemini or similar...becoz u are afraid to loose the car in a stoopid "spring snapping" accident.

[Setanta]

Better take out medical insurance if you chop your springs, it upsets the balance of the spring to shock and messes with the bump and rebound, destabilising the car.

Don't do it, it's potentially dangerous.

[Redteg]

When chopping the spring you change the spring rate.

My biggest fear is that the springs would no longer remain captive, and than the originally flat spring end would now be angled.

I had heard of getting springs reset (Kings Springs actually suggested it) but I don't know how or where to get it done. I too want a lower ride but Kings dont make lower springs than mine.

[poid]

If you dont have money for a new set, or even to compress them (which isnt quite as dodgy as cutting) then leave them. Not only are they dangerous but if you have an acco and insurance sees chopped springs your policy is void.

Redteg: If you need lower springs contact Kmac, they can make whatever height/stiffness you need

As for the not captive thing, this hasnt been as issue for me, as springs are only not captive when the car is hoisted up. So unless you plan on getting airborne off speed humps i dont think its a major drama (other than if insurance/RTA might not like them)

[AP1 F20c]

You gotta be kidding ... How much is it for a set of lowered springs from a locally made manufacturer anyway?

[joneblaze]

You gotta be kidding ... How much is it for a set of lowered springs from a locally made manufacturer anyway?

$400 for kings or similar? even less if u buy n fit them urself?
lol@locally made. only o'seas gear for urself i take it......?

[AP1 F20c]

Jon, that's not a bad price. If you can fit it yourself, that's even better.

[joneblaze]

Jon, that's not a bad price. If you can fit it yourself, that's even better.

i wouldnt have a clue, my car is still at stock ride height. thats jus the price ive heard bandied around the place. i gather its the going price for a "normal" set of springs.

[fueltank]

kings should be around $130/pair depending on what car.

By chopping the springs, you're changing the unsprung height of them.
So if one wheel drops and the strut fully extends and your spring's unspring height has been shortened, there is a chance it will pop out of the seat. When the wheel comes back up, your spring will not be seated properly or seated at all!

If you don't have money to mod your car, then don't mod it.

[traNce_gl]

thanks for ur oppinions just prolly get them compress there a place in newcastle they can do it



If you don't have money to mod your car, then don't mod it.

lol i got the money..its not my fualt king springs dont make lower springs ive got super lows and after that u have to get customs which are around $550 and aujustble are just even more just waste money for springs

[Setanta]

I have a set of very low, very heavy EF springs here that will fit an EG/EK (dunno what you drive). They don't retain particualrly well though. LMK if you are interested.

[poid]

lol i got the money..its not my fualt king springs dont make lower springs ive got super lows and after that u have to get customs which are around $550 and aujustble are just even more just waste money for springs

Kmac customs are $330, just to let you know :wink:

[AP1 F20c]

I wouldn't compress the springs either ... :roll: Howabout Jumboz or Whiteline or even Koni just to name a few other local choices?

[traNce_gl]

yeh ok see what the other brands...prolly sell my old ones just see how high it will lift my car up wen i put the rims on



I have a set of very low, very heavy EF springs here that will fit an EG/EK (dunno what you drive). They don't retain particualrly well though. LMK if you are interested.

how many mm low are they ...are they on your ride .?

[fueltank]

thanks for ur oppinions just prolly get them compress there a place in newcastle they can do it



If you don't have money to mod your car, then don't mod it.

lol i got the money..its not my fualt king springs dont make lower springs ive got super lows and after that u have to get customs which are around $550 and aujustble are just even more just waste money for springs

if u got the money then why not go coilovers.
if you wanna go cheap, then go the threaded sleeve option.
This will let you lower the car to a 'full sick' ride height :lol:

This is a threaded sleeve setup.
http://www.weapon-r.com/circuspro.html

EDIT: I'm not putting you down, but atleast doing it properly. That way you don't endanger yourself and others on the road.

[poid]

Just out of curiosity, what are the rims you have on now, and what will be the size of the 17" rubber you will have on your rims? It may be the case that the new wheels and the current ones will be barely different, and you may not need new springs

EDIT: what does it say on the current tyre sidewalls eg 195/60 R15 for example, and have you considered what width and profile the 17" rubber would be on the new rims

[one more chance]

not only is it highly unsafe, but it is ilegal (but wasn't these days?) and it will void your insurance upon assessment!

go to www.k-mac.com.au and get some custom made, itll cost you no more then $400 shipped to your door. they will custom make to any height for ANY car!

dont ever cut springs!

[traNce_gl]

the wheels are got on are just the stock civic wheel and i havent changed the tyres since i got the car..and about the size on the rubber when i get the rims im not sure im been looking at rims and tyres usually come with it so just standard i gues or low profile

[poid]

well i dont know what the standard rubber is, but you should easily be able to get a 17" rim and tyre combo that doesnt change the rolling diameter, and so will not raise the car at all

[Redteg]

Ye overall diameter should change only slightly, its negligible, i had worked out that with 100km/h on my speedo I would actually be travelling at 101km/h or something silly like that (that is, if my speedo is correct in the first place).

What I think happens though is that larger wheels/lower profile tyres accentuate wheel gap.

[Calvo]

just a quick q, would it be cheaper to buy them and fit them urself and then bring in for alignment, or let them fit and align?
coz wouldnt u maybe beable to work out a deal or sumfin??
just wonderin, coz if ur gonna have to fork out a bit to get it aligned, u might aswell pay a little more and get them to fit it aswell.

[Redteg]

They're fun to fit, and quite easy.

I'd give it a go if you are at all technically inclined. Good bonding time with the car.

[Calvo]

yeh thats the only upside, i wanna learn and stuff.
DIY is no probs with me, coz i got 2 guys on my street who have a fair knowledge of wat they r doin, so they can gimme a hand.
one of them buys honda's, does em up, and sells em :D
currently a DC2R sittin on his lawn without front bar etc :P

ill probably end up doin it myself tho.

[traNce_gl]

wheel nuts and rubber come with the rims and stuff..usually they put them in and give u a whel aligment free thats what they gonna do to mine

[luzinit]

i wanna lower my car after i get some 16" wheels.. would love to do it myself but i have this imagery of the spring poppin out n smashin me in the face n breakin my teeth n stuff.... mmm i think im a bit twisted lol :lol:

[Calvo]

i wanna lower my car after i get some 16" wheels.. would love to do it myself but i have this imaginary of the spring poppin out n smashin me in the face n breakin my teeth n stuff.... mmm i think im a bit twisted lol :lol:
haha thats wat im afraid of aswell.
the spring shootin and doin some serious damage.
after much thinking, im gonna keep my stocky alloys on my car.

[Rowie]

wear a full face helmet when u do it lol :lol:

cricket pads, and a cricket box to protect the jewles :lol:

[joneblaze]

.....yes.....definitely the jewels.....
LOL@"smashin me in the face".....

[Redteg]

I've got a set of spring compressors I bought for 40 bucks, they're a good investment. The only problem is that they're hard to fit on Honda springs (well, teg and civic ones) as the coils are so close together and the overall spring is of a pretty small diameter. They do the job well though, I came across no problems when changing my springs out. (other than getting a decent allen key for the top of my shocks). If anyone wants to borrow them, give me a yell.

As an aside, what do you guys think of those coilover sleeves which are now available here for $500 or so? I like the fact that the ride height would be adjustable, and that they're cheap, but they surely wont remain seated when the car is lifted up if adjusted to be low, as they have no "helper" spring that many true coilovers have. All I see is that the upper and lower spring seats are designed to allow the spring to seat itself properly if it is extended fully.

Comments? I'll either get custom springs or these.

[poid]

If you're thinking about the Ractive ones that VPW sells, they are quite crap. The accord ones didnt even fit my accord properly :)

Skunk2 and Ground Control sleeves are supposed to be quite good but the GC's at least are quite pricey to bring in ($800 roughly). Cant remember if anyone sells Skunk2's in australia anymore, but they used to be reasonably priced.

But yeh, cheaper ones tend to be garbage

[Calvo]

i was close to purchasing a set of coilover sleeves for around $400 (thats wholesale) from my mate in melb.
after asking around etc, i was told they r really crap. they handle crap, and totally fubar ur suspension setup over time. the only reason ppl get them is coz they look good...

[VTEC16]

According to the book 'Chassis Engineering'-By Herb Adams, the formula for spring rate is:

Spring rate= (Gd^4)/(8ND^3)

where:

G= torsional module of steel (or spring material)
d= wire diameter
N= Number of active coils
D= mean coil diameter
8= a constant for all coil springs

So if you look at the equation, you see that the number of coils is in the denomenator. Hence, cutting springs would have the effect of increasing the spring rate. As cutting the springs does not effect the other variables in this equation.

In fact, it works out that a 10% reduction in coils (read: ride height) will amount in a corresponding ~11% increase in spring rate!

So i think this disproves the theory that cutting springs is responsible for a bad ride. If you spent time cutting them evenly then you should have no problems.

I think the misconception, is that most people who cut their springs, also retain their factory dampers (makes sense- if you cant afford to buy springs….). Hence the ride quality is extremely bad.

So besides getting lower springs for free, the other advantage is the knowledge of their lowering capacity. When you buy new springs, they soon compress to their proper ride height. However, despite the manufacturers claims, the springs usually do not settle to the exact specifications. If you cut your own springs, you know how low you are going (if you measure them under compression).

This is a completely unbiased point of view. I have never cut my springs, nor bought replacement lowering springs. I wouldn’t cut my own springs as I don’t have the expertise, time nor confidence in myself to do a good job. But theoretically (based on the above info) I would do it. Previously I was of the belief that cutting springs was as good as sleeping with the devil….but I am of a different opinion now.

[fozee]

You wont get smashed in the face whe npullin out your springs, well you shouldnt anyway.

When you have jacked up your car there should be minimum pressure on your spring.

I did it many times on my old VH commwhore hehehe

[Redteg]

VTEC16, valid points. I have read that in the olden days many racers used to cut their springs, and did well with them.

Easy to cut, just use an angle grinder, takes 1 minute if that! (Commodore springs were 'custom', then I bought proper ones)

Only problem is unpredictability of results, and the possible weakening of the spring. Also that they do not remain captive when chopped too much, and its a pain aligning the spring on its holder whenever you want to change a tyre or just lift the car up.

fozee: My teg springs were compressed quite a bit within the shocks, and its easy to get and use spring compressors. Its best to play it safe, and accumulate tools, then you'll be a real man! hehe.

[fozee]

I forgot to mention i had spring compressors too ;)

but dudnt need em

[Phorte]

hehe most honda stock springs need a spring compressor to remove em.. but then i was working on my friends calibra and he didnt need them (they just sat in the shock seat) but yea commodores either but then my friends lancer needed em.

best to play it safe either way. they're only like $40 for a spring compressors (got a new set for myself the other week from repco)

[VTEC16]

lol redteg......you wrote the same post in two different ways :thumbsup:!!!

i also posted this on superhonda.com ....those guys were all saying NO YOU CANT CUT THEM! etc etc ....even the moderators were saying that shit.....my post was the only one with theory behind it.....ill post up the link later on.

[Setanta]

Theory nothing - its dangerous as it changes the dynamic of the spring and is no longer balanced to the shock.

Your funeral, I don't give a shit - other than for the poor bastard you take out when it goes fubar.

BTW - it also invalidates any insurance you have as it is illegal to do it (go check with the RTA or Vic Roads) and you are then up for damages to yourself, your car and any other poor bastard.

And yes, the insurance companies do look for it.

[McChook]

Chopping springs is just plain stupid. I refrained from joining in, but really, chopping a few coils of the spring changes the whole dynamics of the spring. Springs are designed to operate around those specifics, as are the shock absorbers...... Which suffer damage as a result of chopping, mostly due to unforeseen spring rates (which are totally wrong) and less travel for the shocks, keeping them compress longer, which increases wear...

You are safer driving a car with no springs and slipping in a few more bumpstops....

[VTEC16]

Theory nothing - its dangerous as it changes the dynamic of the spring and is no longer balanced to the shock.

Your funeral, I don't give a shit - other than for the poor bastard you take out when it goes fubar.

BTW - it also invalidates any insurance you have as it is illegal to do it (go check with the RTA or Vic Roads) and you are then up for damages to yourself, your car and any other poor bastard.

And yes, the insurance companies do look for it.

Theory is nothing? What flat planet (which just so happens to be in the centre of the universe) do you live on?

Theory Is Your God

Unless the springs are progessive, the dynamics wont change.

Yes the shocks wont be suitable for your cut springs, they wouldnt be suitable for brand name lowering springs. Get over it. We all agree on that point, so stop using it as a negative for cutting springs.

Im sick of ppl jumping on the bandwagon and talking shit.

[Setanta]

As in your theory falls out of the water as soon as the spring/strut ratio is screwed with. Deal with it boyo.

Theory is nothing and the practice is everything.

Please learn to read (and a few comprehension lessons couldn't hurt either in understanding context).

But thanks for proving that you are ignorant by totally flying off the handle and misunderstanding a post.

As for being on a bandwagon - it seems you have your own bandwagon in the face of what others say.

Get over yourself, you aren't as smart as you think you are.

[vti-2]

Theory nothing - its dangerous as it changes the dynamic of the spring and is no longer balanced to the shock.

Your funeral, I don't give a shit - other than for the poor bastard you take out when it goes fubar.

BTW - it also invalidates any insurance you have as it is illegal to do it (go check with the RTA or Vic Roads) and you are then up for damages to yourself, your car and any other poor bastard.

And yes, the insurance companies do look for it.

Valid points.

I've never been a fan of chopped springs. I've been in a few cars with chopped springs and the ride was SHITHOUSE. I don't know if it was because the springs were chopped 'fully sik stylez' or what but when i had King Superlows in my DC2 with stock shocks my ride was easily 75% better than the cars running chopped springs.

Mike, sometimes theory looks so right on paper but when applied in real life if may not work. Legally speaking you aren't allowed to chop springs anyway. If springs were made to be chopped then suspension tuning workshops would just 'customise' springs themselves by taking a grinder to them and cutting off a few coils. Doesn't work like that.

I'm not taking sides, just giving you my honest opinion. Don't chop springs!!!

Stay safe. :)

[VTEC16]

As in your theory falls out of the water as soon as the spring/strut ratio is screwed with. Deal with it boyo.

Theory is nothing and the practice is everything.

Please learn to read (and a few comprehension lessons couldn't hurt either in understanding context).

But thanks for proving that you are ignorant by totally flying off the handle and misunderstanding a post.

As for being on a bandwagon - it seems you have your own bandwagon in the face of what others say.

Get over yourself, you aren't as smart as you think you are.

My theory states nothing about shocks. In fact, if you cared to read my post, you would realise that you made a common misconception that i have already highlighted.

You need the right shocks for different springs. If you change your springs (buy buying/cutting) then you have to change your shocks to match. How many times do i have to repeat this?

...hey wait a sec!....



Yes the shocks wont be suitable for your cut springs, they wouldnt be suitable for brand name lowering springs. Get over it. We all agree on that point, so stop using it as a negative for cutting springs.

so im the one that needs comprehension lessons?

I never claimed to be smart. I didnt come up with the quation, im happy to be wrong. But unless someone can argue with dignity (not - "my friend has cut springs and stock shocks....") I dont really wanna hear the subjective and irrelevant crap.

[poid]

As far as i know the torsional strength of the material can be affected by the heat generated when chopping the springs (since most springs are heat treated, another application of haet through some/all of the coils could change their properties). Not only that, but the springs when cooling after being cut arent controlled. From a talk i have had with Kmac (which was a while ago, but pretty sure i am remembering correctly) the springs, if cooled too quickly, lose strength. This can lead to softening, sagging or even a complete collapse of the spring.

Thats where is see the choppnig factor coming into your equation, which you have not taken account of.

[snowman95]

bought my car with chopped springs.... i dont like it but my money is in other mods at the moment, as soon as i get some cash ill get a decent setup BUT in the meantime, the ride isnt that bad, yes a bit stiffer, and it doesnt seem to like major ruts and pot holes but what lowered car does, i agree, chop chop springs blow, but meh, unless theres some low priced setups out there i got nothing

[VTEC16]

I see what your saying, but the heated part of the spring becomes an inactive coil. Also, if you allow it to cool slowly (as opposed to quenching it) it would be minimally affected. You could be right however.... thanks for that poid.

[VTEC16]

bought my car with chopped springs.... i dont like it but my money is in other mods at the moment, as soon as i get some cash ill get a decent setup BUT in the meantime, the ride isnt that bad, yes a bit stiffer, and it doesnt seem to like major ruts and pot holes but what lowered car does, i agree, chop chop springs blow, but meh, unless theres some low priced setups out there i got nothing

have you got replacement shocks? or are you just wasting space?

[Jus-10]

bought my car with chopped springs.... i dont like it but my money is in other mods at the moment

Why is it that 'other mods' always seem to take precedent over safety. It's a pretty stupid attitude to have and this isn't directed at you personally snowman, but there are so many idiots out there more concerned with everything (looks) other than safety.

Bottom line is, lowered springs are cheap. K-mac charges like $130 a pair. If you can't afford a basic thing like that, you can't afford to do other mods to increase your performance.

I just get so sick of people trying to make their cars go faster, but then go budget on the things that really matter like brakes and suspension. Set your car up right in these areas, and you will be able to go faster and you can do it safely.

[snowman95]

Thanks to snowman from Team-Integra

Let's look as several of the more popular folk tales about springs:

Myth #1) "If you cut your springs, you will die a horrible and disfiguring death."

There are so many choices for aftermarket springs nowdays, that it just makes better sense to replace your springs rather than to cut your OE ones. But cutting springs does work. If it's done correctly, it lowers the car, stiffens the springs, and doesn't cost you much. Back in the late '70's/early '80's ( the dark ages of auto enthusiasm ), high performance parts for many cars didn't exist. Many Solo II Prepared and Street Prepared cars ran on cut springs. I won the 1984 Pro Solo series in a Ford Fiesta with cut springs.

The down side of cut springs is that you are gambling on your results. Even done correctly, you get inconsistent ride heights and unknown spring rates. Unequal spring rates give unpredictable handling. Cut springs have been known to break, usually at a critical time. See myth #2 below for further problems with cutting springs.

As I said earlier, quality aftermarket springs are a better choice. You get a known vehicle drop for all four corners, you get consistent spring rates. If you are unsure of the spring rates you want, there are numerous packages that offer safe, predictable improvements in handling at a reasonable price.


Myth #2) "Cutting a spring makes the spring softer."

I hear this one a lot. Actually, the opposite is true. Three things determine a spring's rate: wire diameter ( to the 4th power, the biggest factor), coil diameter (to the 3rd power), and number of coils (to the first power). As wire diameter increases, spring rates go up. As coil diameter and number of coils increase, spring rates go down. Cutting a spring does not change the wire diameter or the coil diameter. It does, however, reduce the number of coils, which slightly increases the spring rate.

The problem lies in the fact that the spring looses height at a faster rate than it gains rate. This means that you dropped the car farther than the spring has ability to control. A lower spring needs to be stiffer to keep the suspension from bottoming out. If the suspension bottoms out in a turn, the spring rate in that corner jumps to infinity, and that corner looses traction - suddenly. If it bottoms out in a bump, things usually start to break.

A spring that was cut too low can also bottom out on itself, where the coils actually end up hitting each other. This usually causes the spring to break, also resulting in unpleasant consequences.

[snowman95]

bought my car with chopped springs.... i dont like it but my money is in other mods at the moment

Why is it that 'other mods' always seem to take precedent over safety. It's a pretty stupid attitude to have and this isn't directed at you personally snowman, but there are so many idiots out there more concerned with everything (looks) other than safety.

Bottom line is, lowered springs are cheap. K-mac charges like $130 a pair. If you can't afford a basic thing like that, you can't afford to do other mods to increase your performance.

I just get so sick of people trying to make their cars go faster, but then go budget on the things that really matter like brakes and suspension. Set your car up right in these areas, and you will be able to go faster and you can do it safely.


well to be honest i wasnt into the modifying scene at all before i bought my car, i went into the purchase knowing that the car had a few issues, but for the price I got it and the quality of the engine I could live with it for awhile, but as a noob i got pretty much swept up in the wave that is car modifying and to be honest, springs were the last thing to come to mind when deciding on "my first mod".

As ive learnt more and more from forums such as this and other people i have begun to understand the need for quality parts in regards to components related to safety and modifying is not just all about go fast look bling lowered to the deck fast and the furious crap.

The other thing is I dont want to just buy stuff because other people say its "wicked" everytime i buy something i want to know what im putting on the car and how it will effect it, im here to learn not here to look like a stunna. So with that in the air, ive already locked my money into other areas at the moment, and being that im not rich, i cant afford to do multiple things...
yes kmac springs are cheap at $130 per corner, but being that i would also want to get a professional to install them i would be looking at about $600.... and thats ASSUMING i want to get some cheap springs...i mean what are the spring rates? drop? will they sag? linear or progressive? you have to realise that yes some people have their priorites wrong but also there are some of us out there that are still learning.

(sorry if this doesnt make sense, im at work and ive got a meeting to get to ;) :P )

[Jus-10]

It makes sense, and I see where you are coming from and as I said I wasn't picking on you personally or anything like that....I guess I have just already learned the hard way and I like to see my fellow enthusiasts driving safe cars so they can get the maximum enjoyment out of the car without putting themselves and other drivers at risk....

It sounds like you have got the right idea going for quality rather than simply trying to cut corners, which is always goood to see!

Good stuff ;)

[snowman95]

thanks man

and on that note, now i gotta save for my Eibach springs and Koni Red adjustables....
:p

[VTEC16]

Thanks to snowman from Team-Integra

Let's look as several of the more popular folk tales about springs:

Myth #1) "If you cut your springs, you will die a horrible and disfiguring death."

There are so many choices for aftermarket springs nowdays, that it just makes better sense to replace your springs rather than to cut your OE ones. But cutting springs does work. If it's done correctly, it lowers the car, stiffens the springs, and doesn't cost you much. Back in the late '70's/early '80's ( the dark ages of auto enthusiasm ), high performance parts for many cars didn't exist. Many Solo II Prepared and Street Prepared cars ran on cut springs. I won the 1984 Pro Solo series in a Ford Fiesta with cut springs.

The down side of cut springs is that you are gambling on your results. Even done correctly, you get inconsistent ride heights and unknown spring rates. Unequal spring rates give unpredictable handling. Cut springs have been known to break, usually at a critical time. See myth #2 below for further problems with cutting springs.

As I said earlier, quality aftermarket springs are a better choice. You get a known vehicle drop for all four corners, you get consistent spring rates. If you are unsure of the spring rates you want, there are numerous packages that offer safe, predictable improvements in handling at a reasonable price.


Myth #2) "Cutting a spring makes the spring softer."

I hear this one a lot. Actually, the opposite is true. Three things determine a spring's rate: wire diameter ( to the 4th power, the biggest factor), coil diameter (to the 3rd power), and number of coils (to the first power). As wire diameter increases, spring rates go up. As coil diameter and number of coils increase, spring rates go down. Cutting a spring does not change the wire diameter or the coil diameter. It does, however, reduce the number of coils, which slightly increases the spring rate.

The problem lies in the fact that the spring looses height at a faster rate than it gains rate. This means that you dropped the car farther than the spring has ability to control. A lower spring needs to be stiffer to keep the suspension from bottoming out. If the suspension bottoms out in a turn, the spring rate in that corner jumps to infinity, and that corner looses traction - suddenly. If it bottoms out in a bump, things usually start to break.

A spring that was cut too low can also bottom out on itself, where the coils actually end up hitting each other. This usually causes the spring to break, also resulting in unpleasant consequences.

:thumbsup:

...but i think the spring rate increases more then the height decreases...

[snowman95]

lol guess what, seems my mechanic has no idea... after this discussion on ozhonda, i left work early and went to my local suspension shop for them to quote me on some springs...they hoist my car... and find

some H&R or Eibach progressive springs... lol

i love this car.

[VTEC16]

ROFL!! funniest thing ever!!!

Lucky you!