Rolling on neutral from any gear, downhill, etc.

[pop]

I often put my car back into neutral when I'm going downhill, or when I'm a bit excessive over the speed limit; rather than breaking, I put it into neutral to slow down (most often done on freeways doing 100km/h+).

Bad habit?

[power_of_dreams]

Meh, I do it all the time. Wear out your pads quicker, but pads are cheaper than petrol.

[blk_shadow]

firstly, putting into neutral doesn't necessarily mean you're saving more fuel than in gear.
secondly, its dangerous to put in neutral when you're going downhill, over speed limit and so on. its slower to stop the car when something happens suddenly in front of you. ie. less control of your car

so to me, its a bad habbit.

[Mr_will]

bah, when will people learn.

yes, its a bad habit.

it uses MORE fuel than leaving your car in gear.

people have this misconception that higher revs = more fuel. its just not correct - the load is what determines the amount of fuel going in. when in gear and decelerating, the injectors shut off as the momentum of the car keeps the engine turning whilst the clutch is engaged.

when the clutch is out, or the gearbox is in neutral, the car has to be kept at idle to avoid stalling, which obviously uses fuel.

as others have said, it also means you have less control. what about if you needed to accelerate suddenly?

[|N|]

its a big no no

[Q_ball]

Popping it into neutral is similar to clutching in during a corner....you just dont do it!
If anything was to happen which required you to slow or accelerate suddenly, you'd be screwed!

[TheFranchise]

when the clutch is out, or the gearbox is in neutral, the car has to be kept at idle to avoid stalling, which obviously uses fuel.



beat me to it!

[tinkerbell]

it is also illegal - "not have proper control of vehicle"

[blk_shadow]

even the law said, when you are stopping either on a red light or not. its best to put into first gear. just in case someone hit you from the back and doesn't let your car roll into the middle of the street.

[Dy_]

that why during your manual Ps you fail if you pop it in neutral

[DreadAngel]

that why during your manual Ps you fail if you pop it in neutral

People that don't get Manual P won't know, stupid system fails again =|

[Dy_]

true that!

[tinkerbell]

even the law said, when you are stopping either on a red light or not. its best to put into first gear. just in case someone hit you from the back and doesn't let your car roll into the middle of the street.

i do not believe there is a law that states you must NOT put it in neutral whilst stationary.

however, if i DO put my car in neutral at lights, i have the handbrake up.

[blk_shadow]

i do not believe there is a law that states you must NOT put it in neutral whilst stationary.

however, if i DO put my car in neutral at lights, i have the handbrake up.

no you don't have to. that's why i said, "the law said its best to put in to first gear"

[bennjamin]

its common sense. Leave your car in GEAR while driving in ALL situations.

[dsp26]

been covered before. exact people in this thread giving warnings are the same as the ones before.. heed them...

to the original thread poster....

if an animal or pedestrian suddenly jumps on the road and you swerve to avoid them while in nuetral.... post back here and tell us what happened if you live to tell the tale...

all of you who do it are fools, i pity you.. you should go back to yr7 and study some basic physics.. specifically inertia.

[dsp26]

i do not believe there is a law that states you must NOT put it in neutral whilst stationary.

however, if i DO put my car in neutral at lights, i have the handbrake up.

thats right, it ain't a law but a tip/techinique provided in the Ls books.

[tinkerbell]

L's book does not equal LAW...

blk shadow - if you wanna refer to the "law said something" - use the Australian Road Rules:

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/pts1-21.pdf

[cristian]

been covered before. exact people in this thread giving warnings are the same as the ones before.. heed them...

to the original thread poster....

if an animal or pedestrian suddenly jumps on the road and you swerve to avoid them while in nuetral.... post back here and tell us what happened if you live to tell the tale...

all of you who do it are fools, i pity you.. you should go back to yr7 and study some basic physics.. specifically inertia.

damn, beat me to it...i remember u tellin me this when i borrowed ur old car and driving to ur work...
anywayz, avoiding an unsuspected obstacle can have horrendous consequences due to the pendulum effect a car has during sharp, jolty cornering when in neutral...
being in gear dictates ur car's transfer of weight when in gear...specially in emergency circumstances where ur reactions would be to swerve around an obstacle...apart from the car's weight transferring from left to right, u've also got the gear moving the weight to move laterally...which dampens the shift of weight...
in laymans terms...
grab a rectangle block, and imagine that its the car...now, try to tip it on its side...and compare that to the amount of effort it takes to tip it forward...
the point of that was not to prove cars will tip forward, but the comparison of amount of force it takes to move the car side to side, compared to the force to move it back n forth...

[dsp26]

that one line is well put.. just cbf explaining it again but you worded it nicely.

remember that downhill twards the roundabout in castle hill towards pennat hills... i provoked it on wet road in my mazda ages ago just to see how severe the effect was... and it was dangerous... a damn stupid experiment at that...


damn, beat me to it...i remember u tellin me this when i borrowed ur old car and driving to ur work...
anywayz, avoiding an unsuspected obstacle can have horrendous consequences due to the pendulum effect a car has during sharp, jolty cornering when in neutral...
being in gear dictates ur car's transfer of weight when in gear...specially in emergency circumstances where ur reactions would be to swerve around an obstacle...apart from the car's weight transferring from left to right, u've also got the gear moving the weight to move laterally...which dampens the shift of weight...
in laymans terms...
grab a rectangle block, and imagine that its the car...now, try to tip it on its side...and compare that to the amount of effort it takes to tip it forward...
the point of that was not to prove cars will tip forward, but the comparison of amount of force it takes to move the car side to side, compared to the force to move it back n forth...

[pop]

Thanks guys. You've possibly saved a fellow man's life :)

[cristian]

AAMI is doing a great job with giving people incentives as discount on insurance if they take a defensive driving course...a friend of mine (under 25) did it a few months back and gets like 15% off...

they teach these techniques on that course plus a lot more simple things that wouldn't really come to mind when ur behind the wheel...
e.g. he was tellin me about debris in the car causes just as much, or aybe more damage during a car crash than the crash itself...a baby was killed, even though it was strapped to an approved capsule, by a mobile phone sitting on the dash and went flying hitting the toddler on the head...

[tinkerbell]

guys, girls, everyone,

for more discussion and advice on road safety - i feel this site is EXCELLENT:

http://www.crashprevention.com.au/index.html

even just the basics - are YOU a safe driver?

see here: http://www.crashprevention.com.au/safe_driver/cpa_safe_driver.html

[chilli]

i thought being in neutral doesnt slow you down, doesnt it cause the car to roll more freely in comparison to being in gear? [refering to first post]

im probably wrong..
=p

[bennjamin]

i thought being in neutral doesnt slow you down, doesnt it cause the car to roll more freely in comparison to being in gear? [refering to first post]

im probably wrong..
=p

being in neutral dosent slow you down at all. It is the entire rolling weight of your car plus its momentum. If you are in gear , you have the engines HP/KW to help slow it down.

[cristian]

i thought being in neutral doesnt slow you down, doesnt it cause the car to roll more freely in comparison to being in gear? [refering to first post]

im probably wrong..
=p

he meant, when he was on the freeway in excess of 100kmh...at those speeds ur car needs power to counter drag coefficient...
no power to the wheels will slow u down...

[aaronng]

even the law said, when you are stopping either on a red light or not. its best to put into first gear. just in case someone hit you from the back and doesn't let your car roll into the middle of the street.

No, even when you are in 1st gear, your foot is on the clutch, effectively making it "neutral"

[aaronng]

he meant, when he was on the freeway in excess of 100kmh...at those speeds ur car needs power to counter drag coefficient...
no power to the wheels will slow u down...

chilli is right. When you are at 100km/h, you slow down faster with your foot off the accelerator when in gear compared to being in neutral.

[cristian]

chilli is right. When you are at 100km/h, you slow down faster with your foot off the accelerator when in gear compared to being in neutral.

i agree with that, its just hard to determine the circumstance, i didnt realize chilli was referring to engine braking...

[tinkerbell]

i would hate for the engine to break at 100km/h!

[xenonkuraz]

I think he meant engine braking. Or were you kidding around? :P

[bennjamin]

i would hate for the engine to break at 100km/h!

bwhahahahahaha

what happened to the normal "braking" ? ;)

[panda[cRx]]

i leave my car in neutral and run around fred flintstone style

[aaronng]

I think he meant engine braking. Or were you kidding around? :P

It's an alternative technique, just like heal-toeing. :p

[D4rk4n63l]

for most modern cars, coasting in neutral uses more fuel since the engine needs fuel to keep it from stalling, as if its in gear there's rolling momentum to keep the engine running. Also try braking hard whilst in gear and in neutral, you'll notice the in a car with no ABS, braking in neutral will cause the wheels to lock up much faster compared when you have it in gear.. so yeah, it is a bad habit and its unsafe

[tinkerbell]

the proper answer to the fuel question on a Honda forum is:

the Honda PGM-FI system that controls the engine shuts off the fuel injectors if the throttle is closed and the car is in motion and the RPM is about ~1200rpm (rpm differs for different models)

therefore, as D4rk4n63l says, the engine will use more fuel if it is idling compared to if it is coasting...

[dsp26]

are you guys sure? (serious question)

coz voltage readings of AFM/MAP/O2 are VERY low on idle with injector duty cycles around ~%5.. ie Neutral....

Or is what tinkerbell said above a specific Honda 'feature'?

with that ~1200rpm thing, does it happen around there or below that?

[tinkerbell]

when injectors are shut off - injector pulse width = 0

when injectors firing at idle - injector pulse with > 0

[ECU-MAN]

as above,

the cut off rpm is around 1200 to 1500 rpm.

it determined by rpm, tp, and map inputs to the ECU

[Daynesy]

If you some what, like it being in neutral, use the clutch instead. :)

Easyer to let go of the clutch rather than put it in gear.

[aaronng]

If you some what, like it being in neutral, use the clutch instead. :)

Easyer to let go of the clutch rather than put it in gear.

Then you will wear out your throwout bearing prematurely instead. :p

[clem]

Hmm since the topic of leaving it in N etc is up I might ask a noob Q.

Some people mentioned that leaving the car in N will result in the car consuming fuel to prevent it from stalling. However other people claim that leaving the clutch in will wear out your throwout bearing prematurely.

Scenario: You sit at the turning lights and the first few cars manage to get the green but u being the unlucky one catches the red again so this means another 3 mins wait at the lights until your turn.

In this case would you pull your handbrake up and leave it in N and wait until the light goes green

or

Keep your foot on the brake, foot depressing the clutch pedal whilst in 1st gear? As we all know that we've been taught to always keep it in first by our instructors.

What's the best thing to do?

[shadou]

I leave mine N handbrake on, I was taught to take corners at 5km by my instructor, do I still do it? No

[aaronng]

Hmm since the topic of leaving it in N etc is up I might ask a noob Q.

Some people mentioned that leaving the car in N will result in the car consuming fuel to prevent it from stalling. However other people claim that leaving the clutch in will wear out your throwout bearing prematurely.

Scenario: You sit at the turning lights and the first few cars manage to get the green but u being the unlucky one catches the red again so this means another 3 mins wait at the lights until your turn.

In this case would you pull your handbrake up and leave it in N and wait until the light goes green

or

Keep your foot on the brake, foot depressing the clutch pedal whilst in 1st gear? As we all know that we've been taught to always keep it in first by our instructors.

What's the best thing to do?

Put it into N and put my right foot on the brake pedal.

[blk_shadow]

Put it into N and put my right foot on the brake pedal.

THAT'S WHAT I DO TOO:p

[tinkerbell]

Put it into N and put my right foot on the brake pedal.

what is the point of using your foot brake instead of the hand brake?

[Daynesy]

what is the point of using your foot brake instead of the hand brake?

I believe because the brake has more "stopping power" than the handbrake, as the handbrake is meant for keeping your car from rolling, such as on a hill, well, anywhere.

[tinkerbell]

but if you are hit from behind, how are you going to be certain your foot will stay on the brake?

[Daynesy]

maybe use both? super caution!

Or, we could make up signs for the back of our cars, "Please dont hit me, im still deciding whether to use my handbrake or brake."

Would it work?

[krogoth]

No, even when you are in 1st gear, your foot is on the clutch, effectively making it "neutral"

i think the law says to keep it in gear, clutch in, because they assume that if u are hit from the back u will just drop ur foot off the clutch, staling the car, so it will move much less than it would if u got hit from behind and was pressing the brake pedal with the gearbox in neutral

[aaronng]

but if you are hit from behind, how are you going to be certain your foot will stay on the brake?

Since when did we talk about getting hit from behind? That's a totally different situation.

I usually use light pressure on the brake sufficient to keep my car from rolling at the lights. That way I don't get deposits on my rotors if they are hot.

[aaronng]

what is the point of using your foot brake instead of the hand brake?

It's easier to lift off if you need to. Just like cruising in neutral is not good in case you need to accelerate to avoid an accident, sitting with the parking brake means you take more time to release your brakes and accelerate off. Of course, you can always accelerate without releasing the parking brake, but I prefer not to.

[aaronng]

i think the law says to keep it in gear, clutch in, because they assume that if u are hit from the back u will just drop ur foot off the clutch, staling the car, so it will move much less than it would if u got hit from behind and was pressing the brake pedal with the gearbox in neutral

Could you show me where it says that I have to keep it in gear and clutch in? I downloaded the whole file on my slow internet connection and went through over 400 pages, but I can't find it: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/pts1-21.pdf

[krogoth]

im not actually sure, thats y i didnt quote any official documents

i just remember something vaguely from my L days

but meh, i dont keep it in gear anyway, lol

but if ther was such a law, the reason would be as i said in the previous post

[dc2-forshizzle]

maybe use both? super caution!

Or, we could make up signs for the back of our cars, "Please dont hit me, im still deciding whether to use my handbrake or brake."

Would it work?

Hahaha...or you can put a sign saying:

Please hit me, I'm deciding if handbrake or brake is better at da lights..k thnx"

[krogoth]

ooh, check the vicroads rules aaron, im melb remember

but yeh, its offtopic, but interested nevertheless

[aaronng]

ooh, check the vicroads rules aaron, im melb remember

but yeh, its offtopic, but interested nevertheless
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/RulesStandardsRegulations/RoadRulesRegulations/ActsAndRegulationsAdministeredByVicRoads.htm

Checked it and can't find it as well.

Also offtopic, NSW road rules also includes hook turns now. So there is no excuse to not knowing how to do hook turns in Vic.

[krogoth]

lol, hook turns are cool, u shoud see the look on most peoples faces wen i pull a hook turn in the city, they ask me, wth u doin, nubs

[cristian]

lol, hook turns are cool, u shoud see the look on most peoples faces wen i pull a hook turn in the city, they ask me, wth u doin, nubs

yea i know what u mean...people are like WTF?!?

specially when i do it on that big intersection just after the harbour bridge...

hehehehe...

[aaronng]

I thought you were only allowed to do hook turns in an intersection with a "hook turn only" sign?

[krogoth]

yeh, isnt that how it works?

is ther no hook turn sign were cris is doing hook turns? lol

[pop]

I have left the habit of coasting downhill on neutral, but I still can't get out of the habit of putting it in neutral when I slow towards the red light.

[power_of_dreams]

It seems unanimous that most beleive you save petrol by keeping it in gear, but somehow, trip computer seems to disagree. I travel the same route every day. Decided to leave it in gear where I normally wouldn't. After a couple days my fuel consuption is 9.3 up from 7.8.

Also regarding hand brake/foot break, I'm pretty sure I was taught hand brake start for a reason.

[dc2-forshizzle]

your trip computer is wrong. OKOK unless your car defies the laws of physics

[dc2-forshizzle]

And also, if you'd pay attention to your instructor, you use handbrake when your up a hill, otherwise footbrake that sh*t

[tinkerbell]

It seems unanimous that most beleive you save petrol by keeping it in gear, but somehow, trip computer seems to disagree. I travel the same route every day. Decided to leave it in gear where I normally wouldn't. After a couple days my fuel consuption is 9.3 up from 7.8.


hmmm, i'm not sure that is a terribly accurate test methodology?

[JasonGilholme]

It seems unanimous that most beleive you save petrol by keeping it in gear, but somehow, trip computer seems to disagree. I travel the same route every day. Decided to leave it in gear where I normally wouldn't. After a couple days my fuel consuption is 9.3 up from 7.8.

Also regarding hand brake/foot break, I'm pretty sure I was taught hand brake start for a reason.

thats because the trip computer doesn't take into account injector duty cycle. it only takes into account RPM and pays no notice to load on the engine.

You'll find taht you'll still get the same amount of k's out of a tank no matter which way you do it (unless you drive down hill for 400km's striahg lol).

Either way, fuel consumption should be the last thing on your mind. i'd be more concerned about vehicle control. :thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

Since when did we talk about getting hit from behind? That's a totally different situation.


well, since page one actually:


even the law said, when you are stopping either on a red light or not. its best to put into first gear. just in case someone hit you from the back and doesn't let your car roll into the middle of the street.

[aaronng]

well, since page one actually:

Oops, I missed that. Anyway, I went throught he road rules for NSW and VIC and I still can't find the rule where you have to be in gear with the clutch in.

[tinkerbell]

there isnt one about when being stationary.

[JasonGilholme]

as said previously its just a guidline in the learners book. ie. good practice to do so.

[dc2dc2dc2]

yeah i remember as learner. you always gotta clutch in, never put in neutral at lights.

[vtec-NA.th]

When I stop at lights for a while I put it into neutral with my foot on the brakes.

I thought that's what you're supposed to do?

[xenonkuraz]

Clutch in while stationary? Sore calf ftw.

[power_of_dreams]

thats because the trip computer doesn't take into account injector duty cycle. it only takes into account RPM and pays no notice to load on the engine.

You'll find taht you'll still get the same amount of k's out of a tank no matter which way you do it (unless you drive down hill for 400km's striahg lol).

Either way, fuel consumption should be the last thing on your mind. i'd be more concerned about vehicle control. :thumbsup:

Fair call. But if I'm travelling along and I can see the light turn red 50m in front of me. I will continue to pop it in neutral.

[JasonGilholme]

still better to keep it in gear/change down gears as you approach the light. Gives you more control and its also easier on your brakes.

[tinkerbell]

easier on brakes but worse for clutch/gearbox...???

hmmm, i know which one is cheaper to replace...

[aaronng]

^^ :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

But if I'm travelling along and I can see the light turn red 50m in front of me. I will continue to pop it in neutral.

i am not sure if anyone is saying that you shouldn't do this?


EDIT: whoops, except for JasonGilholme...

[wlan-11g]

What I usually do is put it down a gear and apply the brakes also, best of both worlds i guess!

[JasonGilholme]

hahah yeah i use the brakes as well lol. I usually only change down a gear or two to help out. Rev matching makes the change smoother and doesn't wear at the clutch as much.

[bennjamin]

i generally leave it in 3rd and coast to the lights/stop , and quickly 2nd then 1st once about to stop. Foot onto brake then onto handbrake and in gear / clutch in. Fark who knows its what i do lol

[JasonGilholme]

hahah. I normally go to third. and then second at around 30 - 40 ks and then once i'm stopped i pop it into neutral with foot on the brake. Then when i know the lights are gonna chance, first gear. foot off brake etc etc etc.. lol

[bennjamin]

wrong wrong WRONG !

thats what my 1st and last driving instructor would say ( in a high pitched sensei voice lol)

[JasonGilholme]

haha yeah. I don't like leaving my foot on the clutch though. Release bearings don't last forever.