Honda N/A Tuning

[smoove]

Hey all,

I'm new to Hondas being a Nissan boy for the past 4 years haha! So I apologise in advance for my ignorance regarding NA engines and VTEC

I have an Apexi SAFC Neo which I would like to use to tune a B16A.
What type of gains would i expect? - its a piggyback so typically only the A/F ratios can be tweaked.

Another interesting feature is the VTEC control option - I believe it is only an extra 2 wires to the ECU - and u can set VTEC to kick in at say 4000rpm... why would i want to change this? :)

so in summary, will i see decent gains or should i not bother and buy another ECU - such as the hondata..

[|N|]

Hey all,

I'm new to Hondas being a Nissan boy for the past 4 years haha! So I apologise in advance for my ignorance regarding NA engines and VTEC

I have an Apexi SAFC Neo which I would like to use to tune a B16A.
What type of gains would i expect? - its a piggyback so typically only the A/F ratios can be tweaked.

Another interesting feature is the VTEC control option - I believe it is only an extra 2 wires to the ECU - and u can set VTEC to kick in at say 4000rpm... why would i want to change this? :)

so in summary, will i see decent gains or should i not bother and buy another ECU - such as the hondata.. and finally recommendations on tuning workshops?

um... VAFC is wat u need not SAFC...plus making hi cam kick in earlier wont make ur car quicker

[smoove]

The SAFC Neo is the latest one - has both SAFC and VAFC functions combined.

[|N|]

The SAFC Neo is the latest one - has both SAFC and VAFC functions combined.

sorry my bad... i didnt see the NEO...

i thought u talking abt the old safc

[blk_shadow]

most people go straight with Hondata without apexi things.

or otherwise, use the apexi, see the gain. and then use the Hondata for a better output.

but all in all, the apexi won't give you a big gain. Hondata will do abit more. if you want a big gain, after you've done all the bolt ons, is to do the internal. and the last thing will be the Hondata or other type of ecu/ems.

[Barge Ass]

You change the VTEC timing to provide optimal results (a smooth usable power band with negligible dips) and generally with highly tweaked NA applications it goes up not down.

Sit down and consider what you want in regards to power and where you want it to be located in the RPM range and buy bolt ons that fit that criterion. Eg if you want it high in the band its a bigger exhaust (2.5in) etc.

ECU's come after all the bolt ons and if you are going all out you will need headwork, cams etc. Tuning is expensive and you don't want to go back if need be.

[Chr1s]

Before I waste my time, What exactly do you want from this B16 ?

[Shraka]

I think your question is pretty broad, so I'm just going to arm you with some facts.

I prefer to think of VTEC, not as a system to make a car more powerful, but rather to make a powerful car more drivable. All VTEC does is change from an economy cam, to a rather savage (for a road car) sports cam. If you've ever been in a car with a very lumpy cam, you'll know that they suffer from lack of power down low, and can have real problems at idle. This is what VTEC helps with. It allows the car to have a low lump cam at low RPM, when there is low airflow and a larger cam would be a detriment, and a high lump cam up high where the smaller profile cam would be restricting airflow.

Lowering your VTEC switchover point would just result in a loss of power down low. As you can see from my power graph below, the first cam slacks off, and starts to choke the engine, then the second cam comes on and allows it to breath better. Honda has tuned the engagement point so that the high cam has the same amount of torque as the low cam at the switchover. This makes for best power delivery and smooth switching.

My DC2 Integra VTiR B18C2 Dyno Graph (http://www.artema.com.au/void/stuff/toymods/dyno/results.php?file1=35)

A real problem you're going to have with your Honda over your Nissans, is that a Nissan isn't very well balanced from factory. You can easily change a few restrictive things and end up with massive power gains. This is made especially easily by having a turbocharger. Hondas are different. Hondas are well balanced from factory, having an exhaust that matches the throttle body that matches the plenum, the valve size that matches the cam profile.

It's a much more considered process changing parts in a Honda. You have to take the whole system into consideration if you want a well sorted engine.

Figure out what your goal is, and a power level you want, then build the whole system to support that.

[aaronng]

The NEO is enough if you are doing only bolt-ons like I/H/E/Cat. If you are planning to go deeper into the block and head, then you would want a standalone or map replacement like PowerFC or Hondata in order to control ignition timing and increase the rev limit in order to take advantage of the more aggressive cams.

[smoove]

Thanks for the great replies.

My goal is to have a daily driver that is balanced between power and smoothness (throttle response). In summary, to extract the highest amount of efficiency from the engine without wasting fuel or allowing potential damage to the engine (AFR's neither rich nor lean...)

The car already has a 4-1 Header, 2.25" Exhaust, SRI Intake... not going to bother touching the internals (cam gears, throttle body etc) just yet..

i'd assume even with bolt on mods, you've lost the optimal VTEC point from factory since you've got different AFR's and the switchover point? I'd say this will probably need to be determined on a dyno

[aaronng]

Thanks for the great replies.

My goal is to have a daily driver that is balanced between power and smoothness (throttle response). In summary, to extract the highest amount of efficiency from the engine without wasting fuel or allowing potential damage to the engine (AFR's neither rich nor lean...)

The car already has a 4-1 Header, 2.25" Exhaust, SRI Intake... not going to bother touching the internals (cam gears, throttle body etc) just yet..

i'd assume even with bolt on mods, you've lost the optimal VTEC point from factory since you've got different AFR's and the switchover point? I'd say this will probably need to be determined on a dyno

In that case, the NEO is alright. You wont' be gaining a lot of power though, because you are still using the factory ignition timing, which in modern ECUs actually retards when you use a piggyback without ignition control to lean out A/F ratio.

[beeza]

What happens when you add an adjustable cam gear to the above?
I mean will it help with tuning on the dyno?
This is using a NEO.

[Shraka]

Thanks for the great replies.

My goal is to have a daily driver that is balanced between power and smoothness (throttle response). In summary, to extract the highest amount of efficiency from the engine without wasting fuel or allowing potential damage to the engine (AFR's neither rich nor lean...)

The car already has a 4-1 Header, 2.25" Exhaust, SRI Intake... not going to bother touching the internals (cam gears, throttle body etc) just yet..

i'd assume even with bolt on mods, you've lost the optimal VTEC point from factory since you've got different AFR's and the switchover point? I'd say this will probably need to be determined on a dyno

The ideal switchover point may have changed, but if anything it will probably have gone up, not down. Best way to test would be to run it on a dyno on the low cam, then run it on the dyno on the high cam and find the sweet spot between the two torque curves. I'm not sure if there is a way to trick the car to stay in high or low cam though.

[aaronng]

I'm not sure if there is a way to trick the car to stay in high or low cam though.
The AFC Neo can do that with D, F, B and H series engines. It is not able to alter vtec point on K and R series.

[aaronng]

What happens when you add an adjustable cam gear to the above?
I mean will it help with tuning on the dyno?
This is using a NEO.
It's a fixed adjustment. So if you add valve advance, it affects both low and high RPM, both partial and full throttle. Since dyno tuning is 'usually' done full throttle to gain peak power at high RPM, you'll probably lose drivability at partial throttle low RPM (which requires some valve timing retardation).

Cam gears to advance valve timing are alright for cars built for the track where you focus totally on the high RPM range. But the sacrifices on drivability that you make for a street car makes it troublesome.

[beeza]

Thanks again aaron.I think I will sell my Cam gear cause I've heard nothing but how difficult they are...

[aaronng]

Thanks again aaron.I think I will sell my Cam gear cause I've heard nothing but how difficult they are...

Is this for your D series? SOHC uses the same camshaft for both intake and exhaust valves, so using a cam gear on it with correct tuning still won't yield as many benefits as when compared to a DOHC head where you can set the intake and exhaust independently. Yeah, sell it and put your money into better mods.

[beeza]

Yeah for my d16y4.Will I see any benefits at all but...?

The thing is I've pretty much come to the end of my mods.I mean without touching the internals,which I dont want to do cause it gets expensive.So if there is any gains to be had,I want em'

Things still to do:
* Build a box for the Air filter
* Front and Rear Sway bar
* Energy Suspension Master Bushing Kit
* Possibly a 60mm TB (researching that now)http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77469
* Possibly a Dyno Tune with an AFC NEO (trying to work out if it will be worth the $$$)
* Still gotta put that bloody pain in the ass rear engine mount in.I think I figured it out but.Remove the IM/TB/intake,remove the bolt in the engine mount,jack the engine up,replace mount and put everything back :)

Any input on this will be greatly apprecited.

[blk_shadow]

Yeah for my d16y4.Will I see any benefits at all but...?

The thing is I've pretty much come to the end of my mods.I mean without touching the internals,which I dont want to do cause it gets expensive.So if there is any gains to be had,I want em'

.

there will be a very small gain without changing the cam, valve springs, retainers and so on.

time to install and labour to pay VS power gain :thumbdwn:

[beeza]

Sweet.From what I've been reading it's safer to stay with the stock cam.

[Shraka]

Sweet.From what I've been reading it's safer to stay with the stock cam.

Sure is, but it's also less powerful.

Your cam, along with port size is what defines how much air will optimally get into your engine, and that combined with your cylinder bore and piston stroke defines your peak power band RPM. From your peak power band you can define your ideal throttle body and plenum size, intake runner length, extractor size and length, exhaust size, cam phase (With adjustable cam gears, or iVTEC) and injector flow (which defines how big a fuel pump you need).

If you leave the cam alone, you're rather limited in what other mods you can make, assuming the engineers designed the engine right in the first place. You can pretty much only take away restrictions placed on the engine to make it more economical or environmentally friendly.

[aaronng]

Yeah for my d16y4.Will I see any benefits at all but...?

The thing is I've pretty much come to the end of my mods.I mean without touching the internals,which I dont want to do cause it gets expensive.So if there is any gains to be had,I want em'

Things still to do:
* Build a box for the Air filter
* Front and Rear Sway bar
* Energy Suspension Master Bushing Kit
* Possibly a 60mm TB (researching that now)http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77469
* Possibly a Dyno Tune with an AFC NEO (trying to work out if it will be worth the $$$)
* Still gotta put that bloody pain in the ass rear engine mount in.I think I figured it out but.Remove the IM/TB/intake,remove the bolt in the engine mount,jack the engine up,replace mount and put everything back :)

Any input on this will be greatly apprecited.
If your engine and I/H/E mods will exceed $3000, I'd rather go for a b16a conversion.