Change Gear Ratios - Possible?

[Suntzu]

I dont like the gearing in my 6 sp euro.

1st ok
2nd needs to be shorter by about 20%:p
3rd needs to be shorter by about 15%
4th shorter by 15%
5th shorter by 10%
6th kept same for good cruising efficiency

I rarely if ever use 5th and only use 4th occasionally. I mainly go 1-2-3-6th. Such is the nature of the Canberra roads.:zip:

So my question:

Is there a cost effective and reliable way of changing certain gears? Is it even technically feasible?:o

I have heard of an Icelandic euro owner here who did something like this...?

Any suggestions or linkage to possibilities?

Discuss...

[cutchorama]

If you are looking for smaller gear ratios to accelerate faster, buy a DC5R or S2K. I assumed a lot of roads in Melbourne would be 60km/h in which case you should be in 4th gear. I can't imagine going from 3rd to 6th gear can be too good for your car anyway...

[JasonGilholme]

sounds like a final drive change would suit you better. only difference is that it'd effect 6th gear as well.

changing the final drive effectively gives you similiar results as changing ALL the individual gears.

Alot of race cars change gear sets and final drives to suit different race tracks to give them maximum performance where they need. But their budget is alot bigger then the everyday person haha.

[Suntzu]

If you are looking for smaller gear ratios to accelerate faster, buy a DC5R or S2K. I assumed a lot of roads in Melbourne would be 60km/h in which case you should be in 4th gear. I can't imagine going from 3rd to 6th gear can be too good for your car anyway...

I need a sedan and I not after a huge amount of acceleration. Im after flexibility when rolling, especially once I have modded my car more.

I regularly go from 6th - 3rd on single lane road overtaking trucks who are struggling at 90kph. 4th gear would be suicide in certain circumstances at 90 kph when overtaking with limited room. You mighten get out of the city much but I do regulary.

What chew talking about melbourne? Im in canberra as stated . Its mostly 80kph.

[Mr_will]

I need a sedan and I not after a huge amount of acceleration. Im after flexibility when rolling, especially once I have modded my car more.

I regularly go from 6th - 3rd on single lane road overtaking trucks who are struggling at 90kph. 4th gear would be suicide in certain circumstances at 90 kph when overtaking with limited room. You mighten get out of the city much but I do regulary.

What chew talking about melbourne? Im in canberra as stated . Its mostly 80kph.


i think he was talking about upshifting from 3rd into 6th.

you shouldnt skip gears like that, its not good for your synchros.

it probably means you are going too slow for 6th anyways. you should not use 6th unless you are on the freeway, otherwise you risk placing too much load on the engine, which wastes fuel, shortens its life, and gives you poor acceleration

the most common mistake people seem to make on this forum is thinking higher gear and lower revs = less fuel consumption. this is incorrect. fuel consumption is determined by load, which is in turn determined by how far your foot is depressed to the floor in any given gear, despite how quickly you are accelerating.

the above is relevant to you, because it might just be a case of changing your driving style - maybe instead of being in 6th you should be in 4th, in which case you will find yourself in a much better position to just put your foot down and overtake.

i have found the 6pd box in the euro to be fine for driving around town, and equally so on the freeway. for a 4cyl n/a it has good torque, yet still makes power in the upper rev range so there is no real problem with overtaking as long as your gear selection is good.

[Suntzu]

But your missing my point. i don't think that a higher gear is better for fuel consumption. if you read my post Im advocating keeping 6th at the same ratio its always been. Im after better flexibilty through the rpm range. Its a massive jump in ratios from 1 to 2nd for instance.

I'd like to see some actual evidence that suggests shifting from 3rd to 6th damages synchros assuming you dont grind(which I never do.) And assuming your at sufficient speed in 3rd when you shift up like i do.

This is a good discussion though. Anyone know how one acquires gears from an Integra/RSX. I saw a post at Acurazine where a guy changed the 2/3/4/5 to rsx gears in his TSX and was really happy with the result.

cheers

[preludacris]

interested on more info also. i want to keep my 5th gear for hwy driving, but 1-4 is definately too long in my prelude.

especially when going through touge or track.

[ginganggooly]

i think he was talking about upshifting from 3rd into 6th.

you shouldnt skip gears like that, its not good for your synchros.

it probably means you are going too slow for 6th anyways. you should not use 6th unless you are on the freeway, otherwise you risk placing too much load on the engine, which wastes fuel, shortens its life, and gives you poor acceleration

the most common mistake people seem to make on this forum is thinking higher gear and lower revs = less fuel consumption. this is incorrect. fuel consumption is determined by load, which is in turn determined by how far your foot is depressed to the floor in any given gear, despite how quickly you are accelerating.

the above is relevant to you, because it might just be a case of changing your driving style - maybe instead of being in 6th you should be in 4th, in which case you will find yourself in a much better position to just put your foot down and overtake.

i have found the 6pd box in the euro to be fine for driving around town, and equally so on the freeway. for a 4cyl n/a it has good torque, yet still makes power in the upper rev range so there is no real problem with overtaking as long as your gear selection is good.

Do you seriously sit in 4th gear on the freeway?

Shuntzu may want to correct me, but it sounds to me as though he's cruising in 6th and downshfting to 3rd when passing trucks. I don't see anything wrong with this; i certainly don't go sequentially back through the gears when overtaking.

And it's load AND rpm that dictate fuel consumption, not exclusively one or the other, which you seem to be implying.

The ratio spacing is the problem with the Euro; massive RPM drop from 1st to 2nd, the spacing elsewhere isn't so bad. What the car needs is a taller 1st gear and shorter FD, or shorter 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th... or maybe just opt for a DC5R box.

[Mr_will]

But your missing my point. i don't think that a higher gear is better for fuel consumption. if you read my post Im advocating keeping 6th at the same ratio its always been. Im after better flexibilty through the rpm range. Its a massive jump in ratios from 1 to 2nd for instance.

I'd like to see some actual evidence that suggests shifting from 3rd to 6th damages synchros assuming you dont grind(which I never do.) And assuming your at sufficient speed in 3rd when you shift up like i do.

This is a good discussion though. Anyone know how one acquires gears from an Integra/RSX. I saw a post at Acurazine where a guy changed the 2/3/4/5 to rsx gears in his TSX and was really happy with the result.

cheers


the 6th gear input synchro was not designed to work as hard as you are making it.

if you are at a sufficient speed in third to allow you to be in 6th at an acceptable RPM, then you are making the synchro do much more work than if you were shifting 5th to 6th, because the difference in speed between the output shaft and the input shaft is greater.

gears were designed to be shifted in single steps, not skipped.

you will notice that if you tried to shift into 6th very quickly that it would be difficult. this would be the 'actual evidence' that you are looking for. try it - shift from 3rd to 4th quickly, then try 3rd to 5th and 3rd to 6th. notice it gets harder as you skip 1 and then 2 gears.


if you have no wish or intention to change your driving style (which i believe is the cheapest and most effective option) then yes there are options available.

a change in final drive would give you better acceleration overall, albeit at the expense of top speed (which really, considering you have 6 gears and are limited to 110kmh, is not a big deal).

however if you want to address the actual differences between two specific ratios the only option is swapping the gears themselves. here i see two problems:

1) im just taking a stab here, and someone who works at a honda dealership is more than welcome to correct me, but i could definately see honda denying you a warranty claim if you had opened the gearbox

2) youre most probably going to be looking at either a) gears from a DC5, which will be expensive, or b) custom gears which will be.......expensive.


honestly, try changing your driving style a bit first. then if you are still dissatisfied, go and spend your hard earned dough changing a perfectly good transmission:p

[Mr_will]

I
I rarely if ever use 5th and only use 4th occasionally. I mainly go 1-2-3-6th. Such is the nature of the Canberra roads.:zip:





Do you seriously sit in 4th gear on the freeway?

no, i have a 5speed transmission, and 110kmh equates to a little over 3000rpm, which is fine for overtaking. 3rd gear in my car, however reaches cutout at around 125km, which, if i am overtaking a truck, i like to go a little faster than, so i just use fourth and have one less gear change.

my point was, if he is constantly sitting on 6th but reaching for 3rd, why not compromise. maybe 4th is not the answer, maybe 5th gear would work better, but just try something different instead of reaching for a mechanical solution straight away.



Shuntzu may want to correct me, but it sounds to me as though he's cruising in 6th and downshfting to 3rd when passing trucks. I don't see anything wrong with this; i certainly don't go sequentially back through the gears when overtaking.


I
I rarely if ever use 5th and only use 4th occasionally. I mainly go 1-2-3-6th. Such is the nature of the Canberra roads.:zip:




we are agreed then that provided he double clutchs, shifting from 6th DOWN to 3rd is ok.

but since he said, '1-2-3-6', i assumed he was talking about upshifting. i do not agree that upshifting from 3rd to 6th is ok, for the reasons i have stated above.




And it's load AND rpm that dictate fuel consumption, not exclusively one or the other, which you seem to be implying.


I agree with you, however you'd have to agree that is a common mistake that people assume 'oh lower rpm = less fuel consumption'.

obviously rpm has some effect, but at any given speed, being at too low an rpm, with high load will use more fuel than a higher rpm with lower load. obviously this would not extend to being at 6000rpm all the time. im talking about driving sensibly, and being prepared to cruise around at 3000rpm intead of trying to get below 2000 or something silly.




maybe the solution is to go and buy a 6.0lt SS. then you can stay in top gear all the time and still overtake with ease:D

[Suntzu]

the 6th gear input synchro was not designed to work as hard as you are making it.

if you are at a sufficient speed in third to allow you to be in 6th at an acceptable RPM, then you are making the synchro do much more work than if you were shifting 5th to 6th, because the difference in speed between the output shaft and the input shaft is greater......blah

If i was worried about warranty i wouldn't even consider any mod. So you can apply that logic ( what about warranty questions) to most threads here at ozhonda, which would then defeat the purpose of the very existence of Ozhonda.Being an enthusiast site. Making your point therefore redundant.

Just because something expensive or hard doesn't mean we cant discuss the merits of doing it does it now? If we applied the too hard/too expensive argument to every discussion then you get back to my original point about Ozhonda being an enthusiast discussion website.

I still dont see any evidence of load and/or wear on the transmission by skipping gears. Certainly not within the ownership time frame of me of about 4 years or 100 000km. Its not a clutch, its not going to get a lot of incremental wear i shouldn't think, that is unless your crunching the f##k out of them. Then you know your doing bad things.

I shift both 3-6th and 6 to 3rd regularly and i have no issues. I'm an all or nothing type of driver. I go or I do not go. There is no in between. Such is the Tao of Suntzu.

I do appreciate your thoughts and input though. Its a good discussion. Its just that Im always correct.:eek::eek:

EDIT: PS If I wanted an SS i'd buy one. But im not a bogan ( sorry Yfin :) )

[cutchorama]

Alot of people have commented on the gear ratios of the Euro. I find mine fine the way they are. If you often need to down gear to hit higher rpm to accelerate quickly, perhaps the Euro is not the best car. I'd assume the 3.0L V6 accord would provide more overtaking power than a 4cyc but I doubt you are not going to swap your car for one (I know I wouldn't).

The 3rd -6th gear wasn't the main area of focus. The main area you wanted to focus on was second gear. I'm assuming your not overtaking trucks going 90km/h in 2nd gear as you will be redlining at 100km/h. Not too sure why you want 2nd gear so reduced but I can only imagine it is for faster accel through lower speeds. As I see it this leads to heavy mods, or a different car.

[Mr_will]

If i was worried about warranty i wouldn't even consider any mod. So you can apply that logic ( what about warranty questions) to most threads here at ozhonda, which would then defeat the purpose of the very existence of Ozhonda.Being an enthusiast site. Making your point therefore redundant.

not really. if you take dc2's, eg's, and ek civics, youd have a significant portion of the membership of ozhonda. none of these cars are still under warranty.


the majority (and i say MAJORITY, not all) of the car owners on this site do not have any warranty and therefore do not care.

furthermore, there is a difference between installing new headers, or an exhaust, and opening the transmission.
[quote=Suntzu;1423226]
Just because something expensive or hard doesn't mean we cant discuss the merits of doing it does it now? If we applied the too hard/too expensive argument to every discussion then you get back to my original point about Ozhonda being an enthusiast discussion website.


again, not really. its about bang for buck. this mod would likely cost you a lot of money. IMO, i/h/e mods would be better, and give you more power too, where changing the gears wouldnt. however if its what you want to do, go for it. its your car after all


I still dont see any evidence of load and/or wear on the transmission by skipping gears. Certainly not within the ownership time frame of me of about 4 years or 100 000km. Its not a clutch, its not going to get a lot of incremental wear i shouldn't think, that is unless your crunching the f##k out of them. Then you know your doing bad things.

have you opened up your transmission and looked? if not, then your statement is erroneous. just because you cant 'see' it, doesnt mean its not there.

as i said, you are making the 6th gear synchro work harder by skipping gears. this is not a question of interpretation, it is a fact, and unless you would like to tell me that honda has magically changed the way its gearboxes work in comparison to every other car manufacturer, then you are incorrect.

it IS going to get a lot of wear doing what you are doing. the 6th gear synchro is the weakest of them all on the euro box. so you are not just overworking a synchro, youre overworking the weakest one.

[Mr_will]

I still dont see any evidence of load and/or wear on the transmission by skipping gears. Certainly not within the ownership time frame of me of about 4 years or 100 000km. Its not a clutch, its not going to get a lot of incremental wear i shouldn't think, that is unless your crunching the f##k out of them. Then you know your doing bad things.




hmm. a thread you made when your car had 36 000km on it suggests otherwise.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74589





my cars only done 36 000km. Its an 05 manual. Ive noticed in the last month its getting stick, notchy,stiff in the upshifts and down shif

[Suntzu]

Solved with a flush of the 2.5 year old fluid. Hardly concrete evidence and Im one of many users with the same issue. Nice find though, shows you love me. :)

[EKVTIR-T]

What a laugh...lol.

[tony1234]

Even if you change the final drive you're talking $$$(I'm guessing$1500).If you start changing gears you may as well change the complete gearbox out for a DC5 or whatever fits.IMO not worth it.

[EUR003act]

this is the funniest thread ever! lol theres so many quotes! lmao

i was gonna do the DC5 4.7 final drive set after id exhausted all other mods... not for power increase obviously, but for 1/4mile times :D

[Suntzu]

yeah its some funny shit in here.

You know $1500 sounds like a lot. But my guess is the 0-100kph and 1/4 mile would improve more dropping and fixing the ratios than $4000 on hondata.

Consider the words of Suntzu.

[EUR003act]

yeah its some funny shit in here.

You know $1500 sounds like a lot. But my guess is the 0-100kph and 1/4 mile would improve more dropping and fixing the ratios than $4000 on hondata.

Consider the words of Suntzu.

yes i finally get to quote someone in this thread :p !!!

lol in my opinion i think the jtune extreme would give alot more of an improvement in the 0-100 and 1/4mile compared to final drive... however, considering you already have headers/intake... the extreme package would be a waste of money for you...

DC5 owners correct me if im wrong, but ADM DC5 does 0-100 in 6.7secs? where as JDM DC5 (with 4.7 final drive) does 6.1secs?

[tony1234]

I've heard that lower final drive(from DC5 i think)and lightened flywheel will give you faster 1/4 mile time than I,H,E.

[EUR003act]

I've heard that lower final drive(from DC5 i think)and lightened flywheel will give you faster 1/4 mile time than I,H,E.

i think ADM DC5 stock does 1/4mile in 15.1secs... JDM does it 14.8secs?

i studied up on lightened flywheels abit because i wanted one, and on such a small engine (2.4L is tiny compared to 6L v8s etc) they will give fairly impressive 0-100 and 1/4 mile times...

hehe more quotes :p

[JasonGilholme]

better off doing weight reduction IMO before spending big on gear sets or final drive.

I'm sure theres plenty of weight to remove from these chassis which will definately make the K series engine under the hood alot more of a handful.

[EUR003act]

better off doing weight reduction IMO before spending big on gear sets or final drive.

I'm sure theres plenty of weight to remove from these chassis which will definately make the K series engine under the hood alot more of a handful.

lol yeah - i mean, yes i would love to do all these mods, but when it comes down to it, i got the heavier lux version, plus about 60kg of subs/boxes/amps in the car... so its kinda just a waste lol

[Suntzu]

I dumped all the garbage out of my car, coke cans, 1970's porno collection , 3 week old macas etc and the quarter mile dropped by .3 sec on the buttometer. What a bang for buck mod FTW!

[yfin]

What you might want to look at is a second hand Acura TSX or DC5R final drive. They are not that expensive. When I was travelling in the USA I was thinking of picking one up (around $450). The real cost of these items is the labour cost for install but if you do it at the same time as changing to lighter fly and clutch you can make it more reasonable. And that combination will make a very nice difference to the way the car accelerates.

[Cranial]

Interesting thread.
I have a J's Racing 5.1 final drive on my car, as well as a lightened flywheel and JDM DC5R LSD. I do not have I/H/E. These are my impressions:
1. When you accerlerate normally, as in, not flooring it, it drives like a Euro.
2. When I plant the foot - it is impressively fast. I haven't had the chance to get some 0-100 or 1/4 mile times, but it feels fast, and definately faster than stock. I would like to find out one day though before I do any I/H/E mods.
3. The speedo is WRONG. The speed sensor gets its timing from the the gearbox and changing my final drive has screwed it up. GPS say 100. Speedo says 130. (I have 18" wheels, but that doesn't really affect it that much).
4. Because the speedo is wrong, my odo is racking up the km's real fast!
5. And oh yes, the tops speeds in every gear has been (obviously) reduced. First is around 50kmh, 2nd redlines at around 88kmph.

So in a nutshell, is it worth doing? That depends if you don't mind your odo going up faster, your speedo being wrong... and whether its cost effective. I had all those mods done at once, so I saved on labour.

[aaronng]

10% top speed decrease but a 30% increase in speedo reading???

[yfin]

Interesting thread.
I have a J's Racing 5.1 final drive on my car, as well as a lightened flywheel and JDM DC5R LSD. I do not have I/H/E. These are my impressions:
1. When you accerlerate normally, as in, not flooring it, it drives like a Euro.
2. When I plant the foot - it is impressively fast. I haven't had the chance to get some 0-100 or 1/4 mile times, but it feels fast, and definately faster than stock. I would like to find out one day though before I do any I/H/E mods.
3. The speedo is WRONG. The speed sensor gets its timing from the the gearbox and changing my final drive has screwed it up. GPS say 100. Speedo says 130. (I have 18" wheels, but that doesn't really affect it that much).
4. Because the speedo is wrong, my odo is racking up the km's real fast!
5. And oh yes, the tops speeds in every gear has been (obviously) reduced. First is around 50kmh, 2nd redlines at around 88kmph.

So in a nutshell, is it worth doing? That depends if you don't mind your odo going up faster, your speedo being wrong... and whether its cost effective. I had all those mods done at once, so I saved on labour.

That sounds great - except for the speedo problem. You can fit an apexi RSM which will correct the speedo pretty cheaply but not the odo.

[Mr_will]

You know $1500 sounds like a lot. But my guess is the 0-100kph and 1/4 mile would improve more dropping and fixing the ratios than $4000 on hondata.

Consider the words of Suntzu.

i doubt it. if you got i/h/e + hondata you'd have a much more driveable car, with more power and torque, and you wouldnt have to open your gearbox.


consider the words of Mr_will:wave:

[aaronng]

i doubt it. if you got i/h/e + hondata you'd have a much more driveable car, with more power and torque, and you wouldnt have to open your gearbox.


consider the words of Mr_will:wave:

Lightweight fly and final drive is better bang for your buck. Plus, you are not putting additional stress on your engine unlike Hondata.

[Suntzu]

Hmm so consider the words of Aaronng also...A problem..this is..

[aaronng]

Just do both. :p

[Mr_will]

Lightweight fly and final drive is better bang for your buck. Plus, you are not putting additional stress on your engine unlike Hondata.

he is talking about changing individual gears also...

[tron07]

Lightweight fly and final drive is better bang for your buck. Plus, you are not putting additional stress on your engine unlike Hondata.

lighten flywheel, less power for your amps :p
Big no no for car audio.

[aaronng]

lighten flywheel, less power for your amps :p
Big no no for car audio.

Flywheel has nothing to do with your alternator. :p

[tony1234]

lighten flywheel, less power for your amps :p
Big no no for car audio.
You're getting lightened flywheel mixed up with lightened pulleys.:)

[EUR003act]

^^^^^ agreed

[tron07]

You're getting lightened flywheel mixed up with lightened pulleys.:)

oooops.... my bad... sorry....

lighten flywheel for the clutch....

[Suntzu]

Stop hijacking my threads ffs.

I should have put up a Poll to settle this~!

[EUR003act]

russ we'r all men, we get side tracked easily! lol:p

[tron07]

I dont think I can live with the mis-match speedo and odometer...

Anyway how would the RSM able to calculate the correct speed? Wouldnt it need to tap the info from the ecu, and the ecu would probably feed it wrong signal.... any info? how do you program the RSM? never play with it before, but I know some people use it to bypass the 180 speed cut in japan imported cars.

[Suntzu]

Yeah that speedo issue is a real bummer alright.

how cool would it be if Honda offered 3 difference gearbox's when you ordered your car! Not that would be innovation!

[tron07]

I would prefer AWD.... that would rocks

[tony1234]

I'm sure there's a way to recalibrate the speedo AND the odo as well.

[ALN]

Prob, just used the same sensor that TSX used since TSX got 4.7 FD, stock.

[tron07]

Prob, just used the same sensor that TSX used since TSX got 4.7 FD, stock.

Maybe Cranial should use it.... then accurate speedo and odo

[yfin]

Anyway how would the RSM able to calculate the correct speed? Wouldnt it need to tap the info from the ecu, and the ecu would probably feed it wrong signal.... any info? how do you program the RSM? never play with it before, but I know some people use it to bypass the 180 speed cut in japan imported cars.


The RSM lets you adjust the tyre size so you can change the speed reading from the ECU that way.

I adjusted my RSM so that it matched the speed on my GPS unit rather than the speed showing on the speedo.

[Accord Basic]

anyone know what the gear ratio is for the CL9?