tuning? explain

[94dc2tegz]

Hey all,
Been here for a little bit but I have no bloody clue about tuning and it's starting to annoy me. Its like one of those thing that everyone kinda knows about and doesn't really talk about or when they do it's all advanced and all in their technical jargon and your just sitting there going... yaarrr....

Basically, after fitting on bolt-ons best thing u can do is a 'tune' and that fixes up the low end power cuz of ur free flowing system. Anyways, wtf is a tune and how does it compare to ur ecu slowly learning the new settings? Will a tune 'detune' itself? And do you goto special racing shops for this kind of tune or all those random 'tune up' shops can do it? I duno! If you think this is confusing and annoying these are the questions that have been flying around my head!

Also as a final note, with this hondata and all those things... what are these? I'm assuming that they are like better than 'just a tune'?

Anyone interested to sit me down and explain these to me? No need for patronization or just search cuz that just gives me a whole bunch stuff that I dont need. So yeah, be a sport will ya. :p

[freewilly]

well tuning is just referring to the process where you get someone to go through what you have on your stock settings and tweak them and fiddle around with them so you can obtain better air:fuel ratio/rev harder/ignition mapping...blah blah blah...
basically it redesigns your computer 2 work best with the mods you have placed on your car...it takes time and time = $$$

hope that helped...im noob 2.... :D

[94dc2tegz]

well tuning is just referring to the process where you get someone to go through what you have on your stock settings and tweak them and fiddle around with them so you can obtain better air:fuel ratio/rev harder/ignition mapping...blah blah blah...
basically it redesigns your computer 2 work best with the mods you have placed on your car...it takes time and time = $$$

hope that helped...im noob 2.... :D

Alright fair enough. But with ecu's learning all the time how does it stay like that and why doesnt ur ecu do this automatically?

[Sydsyd]

stock ECUs can only be tuned to a certain extent...more than that, u'll need aftermarket ECUs like Hondata etc.

[94dc2tegz]

Alright, so with i/h/e bolt-ons. Would a stock ecu tune be the best as i assume aftermarkets ones would be for cams and what not. And also be a hella lot more $$$

[aaronng]

stock ECUs can only be tuned to a certain extent...more than that, u'll need aftermarket ECUs like Hondata etc.

You can't tune a stock ECU. At the very least, you need a VAFCii

[94dc2tegz]

remember... i duno wtf all this jargon is... VAFCii???
c'mon dudes... expand a bit.

[XP02ED]

do a google search for VAFC 2

his trying to say.. You need to buy an aftermarket ECU or 3rd party piggy back ECU to be able to tune antyhing.. correct me if im wrong

[Zdster]

I think a few things need to be clarified.

When a car comes straight from the factory, it comes with an oem ecu designed for your specific car. Inside the ecu is a 'map' that controls the engines aspects, like the amount of air to fuel (air/fuel ratios). The stock 'map' also takes into consideration things like quality of fuel etc.

Two things need to be noted from this. Firstly, even though every engine is technically the same (ie a d16 or b18 etc) they are all slightly different (slight differences in boring, pistons, wear in etc etc). As such you can 'tune' a stock car (as in fiddle/alter the stock 'map' of a car and experience extra power). Its important to note that engines need to operate within certain parameters and the ecu/'map' assists with this. Tuning allows the owner to focus these parameters to meet certain goals (ie increase power or fuel consumption etc).

The second thing that is important to note, is that while a stock ecu does some 'learning' it is not a capable of being altered - a separate 'tuneable' ecu is required where the maps can be changed.

Engine/car manufacturers also add in some form of idiot proofing into their ecus. Even though some cars are specifically designed to run 98 ron fuel, the manufacturers know that someone out there will put 92 or 95 petrol in their car. If they didnt add in the idiot proofing and someone did this then their engine could potentially implode and as such they make sure the ecu and therefore the engine is flexible through the map design. Now if you know that you will never run anything but premium unleaded you can remove the safegaurding from the maps and potentially get more power.

[aaronng]

Also as a final note, with this hondata and all those things... what are these? I'm assuming that they are like better than 'just a tune'?

Anyone interested to sit me down and explain these to me? No need for patronization or just search cuz that just gives me a whole bunch stuff that I dont need. So yeah, be a sport will ya. :p
What the ECU does is have pre-set settings for fuel tables, ignition mapping, VTEC point (if it is a VTEC engine) and in the new engines, VTC (intake cam phasing). It's all nice and good for a stock engine, but when you do I/H/E and/or cams, these settings are not optimum for your setup anymore because you will be flowing a larger amount of air compared to stock.

A tune is altering those tables and maps to suit your engine. To achieve that, you use different equipment. You have basic interceptors like VAFCii which can only alter fuel mapping and VTEC point, more complex interceptors like a Unichip which can alter ignition timing as well. Because interceptors intercept the signal, alter it and pass it on to the ECU, the ECU can alter its own fuel trim and cause it to not be fully optimised after long periods. The tune DOES NOT go back to stock, but your tune won't be the same as it was before.

To avoid the ECU altering the fuel trim, you can get piggybacks (they take over the engine management while leaving your stock ECU to run your instruments), ECU chipping (Hondata S100, S200, S300, K100, Kpro) or a standalone (PowerFC). Some of these ECUs also allow multiple tables and maps that you can switch between as required based on engine conditions.

But..... in the end, all this hardware does NOTHING for your tune if you don't have a good tuner. Choose your tuner first, then choose your hardware based on what your tuner is familiar with.

[Zdster]

remember... i duno wtf all this jargon is... VAFCii???
c'mon dudes... expand a bit.

A VAFC is a product produced by Apexi that allows you to tune your engine.

[94dc2tegz]

THAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK YOU AARONG!
finally i have some clarity. cheers to everyone else too
I did to a google on VAFC 2 and that helped alot too.

I notice your from melb, aarong. Any tuners u care to rec? I figure driving around and looking for the biggest, most colourful and most gangster "EXHAUST PRO RACER" sign is a bad idea when choosing an tuner shop. Btw, are these the same as an exhaust shop?

[Sydsyd]

:eek:my bad...yeah stock ECU can be tuned using piggyback ECU:)

as for tuner shops, there are some around like Chasers, AKMotorworks etc...pm EuroAccord13, he knows one too;)

[aaronng]

THAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK YOU AARONG!
finally i have some clarity. cheers to everyone else too
I did to a google on VAFC 2 and that helped alot too.

I notice your from melb, aarong. Any tuners u care to rec? I figure driving around and looking for the biggest, most colourful and most gangster "EXHAUST PRO RACER" sign is a bad idea when choosing an tuner shop. Btw, are these the same as an exhaust shop?
My car is still running the stock ECU. But I know a few people who bring their cars to Technik Tuning over at Heidelberg West to tune (owner is a good tuner).

Exhaust shops don't have dynos. You're best going for a place that has a dyno and to find a good tuner.

[Zdster]

Btw, are these the same as an exhaust shop?

No, they are completly different again.



I notice your from melb, aarong. Any tuners u care to rec? I figure driving around and looking for the biggest, most colourful and most gangster "EXHAUST PRO RACER" sign is a bad idea when choosing an tuner shop.


Be very carefuly when choosing a tuner. You have to remember that if they mess up your tune your engine can very easily blow up (and then think of the repair bill).

If you are after a tuner there are a number around (backyard tuners and some with shops as well). Most of the good tuners have built up reputations that you will hear through word of mouth (and less so than through advertising ie big signs! :)). Personally I like AKMotorworks so would PM/email him (let me know if you need his contact details).

[94dc2tegz]

yup, i've sent an email to AKMotorworks. I'll see what they can do for me and I guess I trust them more since a honda forum recommends him. I'll see how it goes!

[AzKik-R]

Be very carefuly when choosing a tuner. You have to remember that if they mess up your tune your engine can very easily blow up (and then think of the repair bill).

yeah!!!, one of the guys in alice had his honda prelude tuned by an idiot, advanced the timing too much, put a hole in the piston.

the funniest thing was, he sent is car to qld to be rebuilt/tuned, and it got written off within 48 hours of being in alice springs, 2 cars crashed into him. and now its for sale :(

[michael_antoi]

Get your self a Hondata s100 for $220 + tuning it really can’t be beaten in price features and functions.

[94dc2tegz]

I thought hondata's where way more expensive? or is the tuning process the expensive part?

[aaronng]

I thought hondata's where way more expensive? or is the tuning process the expensive part?

Depends which one you are going for. Read up at Hondata.com to find out what features are supported and for price comparisons between the different grades.

[Zdster]

Get your self a Hondata s100 for $220 + tuning it really can’t be beaten in price features and functions.


I am sorry, but I love the way people offer e-advice. How can you determine what the best ecu is for his application without knowing things like his car, modifications, what he is after out of the engine etc etc? Choosing the right ecu for the right application is also a big part of tuning IMO. While in many ways it is true that you want to install an ecu that your tuner knows how to operate and build maps for, you also want an ecu to suit your vehicle.

[aaronng]

I am sorry, but I love the way people offer e-advice. How can you determine what the best ecu is for his application without knowing things like his car, modifications, what he is after out of the engine etc etc? Choosing the right ecu for the right application is also a big part of tuning IMO. While in many ways it is true that you want to install an ecu that your tuner knows how to operate and build maps for, you also want an ecu to suit your vehicle.

94dc2tegz has a B series and the S100 works fine with it if his ECU is OBD1 and the car is a manual. It supports fuel maps, ignition table, VTEC point and RPM limit change and just basically enables the ECU to be flashed with a new map.

Your choice of ECU is more limited and you have to be more picky when you have "odd" features like VTC, electronic throttle, turbo, auto or an OBD2 ECU (at least for Hondas).

[sr3]

For $220 Hondata S100 is your best commercial option + Tuning for sure its dame cheap, you would have to be smoking drugs to get a VAFC or anything else when your obd1, go talk to the Hondata / Hondatech dealers and get a quote for tuning.

[VT1-R]

$220 for Hondata?!! are u sure. I dun tink so. Retail VAFC cost $400+. While Power FC is like $1000+. And If i am not wrong, in perth, there is no one that can tune your hondata like the pros in the eastern states.

So my friends reckon best choice is to get the Power FC in perth for the hardcore peeps. VAFC for budget minded. You get what you pay for.

BUT! 1 thing that can help u get the most out of your engine is the tuner that tunes your engine. No matter its Power FC, Hondata or Vafc, a good tuner can maxmise your car potential with the ECU or piggyback you have got.

Eg. A shit tuner tune your car with Power FC and a good tuner tune your car with Vafc. There will be difference in that power fc give u a bit more power but its will not be a huge difference.

Therefore whatever you use to tune, ALWAYS! ALWAYS! get a reputable tuner to do it. Pay abit more and be assured you are getting the power u deserve. haha hope it wells.. some advice i got from people. gd luck.

[94dc2tegz]

if lets say hypothetically I was to get my car done with i/h/e + a good tune of course and could get the same power if not more as a ITR. Would be the same? or is it just pure power and acceleration's not as good or vtecs not as aggressive? what would be the difference?

[SeverAMV]

if lets say hypothetically I was to get my car done with i/h/e + a good tune of course and could get the same power if not more as a ITR. Would be the same? or is it just pure power and acceleration's not as good or vtecs not as aggressive? what would be the difference?

dont know too much about integras, but it depends on what i/h/e combination you use. and then power doesnt matter as much as torque, and the shape of the torque curve. its possible with the right combo of aftermarket gear to make the torque peak sooner which may make your car keep up with the integra type r. but as far as i know, unless you put more money into other parts, it wont be the same as the type r. pretty sure the type r is much lighter, has much better response and pretty darn good torque.

just a power figure doesnt tell you much, you need to look at the curve on a dyno sheet. like if your motor only makes the power at the top end and is dull at the rest of the rev range, even if you make the same power as the type r, you wont be able to keep up because of the difference in the power and torque bands. or something like that. maybe a integra owner would be able to explain it with more relevence.

[dzyn3]

im sure ITR's have lsd gearbox's for better traction. they can probably launch better in that sense compared to a vtir dc2

*EDIT

would it be worth the money to purchase a s100 and tune it with i/h/e? money: power gain

[aaronng]

Your VTIR cams are not as aggressive as the ITR's, so that is already a starting disadvantage. Couple that with your narrower intake runners and the lack of balancing, porting and lightweight internals. Even if you made the same peak power as an ITR, the ITR will still feel more tractable and rev up quicker even when not at peak power RPM.

[beeza]

would it be worth the money to purchase a s100 and tune it with i/h/e? money: power gain

This will always be a hard question to answer.Offcoarse you will see gains and your car will run a lot smoother but is it worth the dollars??
Even on a stock motor you will see gains with an aftermarket program like Hondata s100 + Tuning.Like everybody has been saying it comes down to the tuner.A good tuner will make it worth it.atm I'm trying to decide if it is worth spending the $2000 or not to do this too my car.
I thing is forsure.I WANT TO DO IT! I just haven't got $2000.... Haha but I will find it.Where there's a will there's a way!