Dog Box? Anyone done it / running one?

[Sexc86]

Hey guys..

During the time of owning my honda i have been through nearly 5 gearbox's and im getting sick of it. Is anyone out there running a dog box (strait cut gears?) on their D or B series engine?

If so what is the process of getting one? Basically do you just take a factory box to a specialist and the replace the gears with strait cut? or do some manufactures make them from scratch?

Usually what determains how many gears are strait cut? is it just outright power? or driving style? what usually are the factors?

and last final question? how much usuallly? got a few quotes for these so called unbreakable Custom made dog box's (1 - 4 gears strait cut)... for around 4k expensive or cheap? or average


Think thats about it

Cheers as alwayes guys



Regards Lyle

[NSPYRE]

try ppgearbox. where are u located? they have dealers in all states. $4k sounds pretty dam good to me...

EDIT: saw ur thread in parts for sale and stated ur in queensland. in that case, go to Neal Lowe Motorsport or Perfourmance Motorsport

[ekdez]

i heard dog boxes weren't legal in some states of aus tho?... its the reason i didn't buy a s15 with a dogbox in it... but if u have been through 5 gearbox's, i'm pretty sure dog boxes brand new.. will have a life time warranty.. so ya sounds like a good option for u

[Paul1985]

Is it a race car?
I think you would be crazy to do this on a daily driven honda

[JDM.Power]

dogboxes are mainly for drag and track, no point if your going to get it and used it to drive around daily.

my friend has a dog box in his wrx, since wrx gearboxes are lil girls they break so easy. so he got one from STI life time warranty.
it has broken twice and been fixed so quickly by STI.

4k is a good price with warranty?

5gearbox wow!
how much power you putting out and what clutch are you running?

[SPEEDCORE]

I honestly would be looking at shifting technique before anything else......

[Mr_will]

are you looking at a helical cut dog box or straight cut?

if you are looking at straight cut, i would seriously suggest you reconsider, as the noise of these is NOT appropriate for street driven cars. its not a matter of a little extra noise you can mask with a good stereo. they are LOUD. they WHINE and they will shit you off no end.

but dont go looking for a helical cut dog box either, unless you have a lot of cash to spend - they are signficantly more expensive than a straight cut dog box.

also, helical cut gears are more subject to end thrust, so this COULD lead to breakages, although it would still take much more of a beating than a regular box.


try shifting technique. if it doesnt work, THEN go looking to spend more of your hard earned cash :P

[Q_ball]

I honestly would be looking at shifting technique before anything else......

I second that.
My GSi produces 213kw atw and the box has taken every bit of abuse that i have given it to date and its still fine,
Just need to replace the bushings but the GB itself is A-OK.

[philBo]

what is the benefit of such a gear box setup? noob btw

[Paul1985]

what is the benefit of such a gear box setup? noob btw

You can get some skills and maybe drive trucks for a living haha. j/k
strength is obviously a big factor.

[Mr_will]

what is the benefit of such a gear box setup? noob btw



Normal production car gearboxes have helical cut gears to keep them quiet. The constant mesh and thrust of the helical cut design keeps the gears quiet but they generally not as strong as straight cut gears and do not transmit torque as efficiently.

Straight cut teeth are ususally bigger but there is backlash and the teeth knocking together produce the distinctive gear whine. Gear profile has a lot to do with how much noise there is, some straight cut gearsets are not that noisy at all.

Production gearboxes also use synchros to provide smooth, quiet shifting. The synchro's job is to "grab" the gear when you are shifting and match it to the same speed as the driven shaft to provide a smooth silent shift with no grinding. This happens as you move the lever into the gate for that particular gear.

The trouble with synchros is they slow down the shifting process and they have little teeth which aren't so strong compared to dogs. The engaging teeth on the gears are equally small so you could potentially strip all the little synchro engaging teeth (you can also call them dog teeth) off the gear and have no more drive in that gear even though all the gear teeth are in perfect condition.

A dogshift box does without the synchronizers. Instead you have 6 or 8 big dog "teeth" on the gear. On the shift slider you may have a corresponding number of "slots"
that the dogs fit into. The are other designs as well.

When you shift since there is no synchro to make the gear speeds match you have to match revs with a blip of the throttle for a smooth shift. But that's not necessarily accurate, really, because you can crash it right in. That's why they are also known as "crashboxes". The clutch is not required when shifting. When accelerating a quick, partial lift of the throttle will do. When downshifting a blip of the throttle to match revs will ensure a smooth shift. A dogbox will shift as fast as you can move the gear lever. No waiting for synchros. When you try to shift slowly is when you are most likely to grind a dogbox

One other advantage is being able to downshift in a corner without the clutch while left foot braking.
Also, the dog mechanisms don't take up as much room as synchros so a wider gear can be fitted.

[SPEEDCORE]

Thank you Mr Google.... I mean Mr Will

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=898169&postcount=11

;)

[jezza323]

a straight cut gear with teeth of the same width and height as a helical gear will not be as strong

pls google this topic for more information....preferrably find some where with the correct information :)

[Mr_will]

yep, sick of telling people to google stuff, so i do it myself :)

[Mr_will]

a straight cut gear with teeth of the same width and height as a helical gear will not be as strong

pls google this topic for more information....preferrably find some where with the correct information :)


noone said they would be.

much of the strength of a straight cut box comes from the fact that you use bigger teeth, so your point is kinda stupid

additionally, you'll never achieve the same shift speeds with a synchro box as with a dog box.

and you CAN have helical cut dogboxes, if you think that is the best of both worlds for your application

[Paul1985]

I reckon the whine sounds cool. Probably would get tired of the sound quick though..

Think of going flat out in reverse, thats what it would sound like.

[jezza323]

do your research, main reason for straight cut gears is that they are about 100 times easier and cheaper to cut

[Mr_will]

do your research, main reason for straight cut gears is that they are about 100 times easier and cheaper to cut

ummmmmmm then why are they used on high budget drag and track cars?

because they allow quicker shifting, without the clutch, thats why.

they also take up less room

[jezza323]

because they replace them frequently :)

[Mr_will]

because they replace them frequently :)


most of those teams could afford to replace helical gears frequently too.

so do you have any argument for the fact that dog boxes allow for much quicker changes, without the clutch? doesnt sound like you do...

[jezza323]

they actually take up more room, because they have to be wider, so that you can have something as strong as a narrower helical cut gear

also....you cant just make bigger teeth, as you wouldnt be able to fit as many teeth on each gear, therefore changing the gear ratio significantly :)

[jezza323]

yes a dog box allows quicker shifting, not disputing that at all

EDIT - just trying to point out incorrect information being passed to someone who does not know much about it. also trying to make sure ppl understand a dog box + a street car is not a good mix

[Mr_will]

they actually take up more room, because they have to be wider, so that you can have something as strong as a narrower helical cut gear

also....you cant just make bigger teeth, as you wouldnt be able to fit as many teeth on each gear, therefore changing the gear ratio significantly :)



you have misunderstood - the teeth are WIDER because the dog mechanism is smaller than a syncro, so for any given amount of space, the gear can be longer in a dog box setup.


any arguments for the idea of the extra end thrust created by helical gears? or the fact that they are less efficient as far as torque transmission?

[jezza323]

any arguments for the idea that dog rings wear much faster than a synchro? :)

im not saying they are not good for certain applications, my guess is no one on this forum (unless the IPRA guys are on here) has an application to suit a dogbox

[Mr_will]

as it happens i do - they only wear out faster because the majority of people who have them are not experienced in using them (lets face it, it isnt easy). so they cop more abuse. if subjected to the same conditions, they will last LONGER than syncros because they are larger and more robust

[jezza323]

so they are narrower, but larger? for the same size gear? interesting school or physics u went to :)

[Mr_will]

so they are narrower, but larger? for the same size gear? interesting school or physics u went to :)

ok i can see how you might be confused so ill try and explain it a different way for you.

the diameter of the gear does not change

nor does the number of teeth.

the gear is LONGER. like having a 30cm long length of intake piping instead of 20cm. obviously much smaller numbers in the case of gears.

the increased length spreads the load applied, making them stronger. the reason they can be longer in the first place is because the dog mechanism takes up less space than a syncro, allowing the gear itself to protrude further forward

[jezza323]

as it happens i do - they only wear out faster because the majority of people who have them are not experienced in using them (lets face it, it isnt easy). so they cop more abuse. if subjected to the same conditions, they will last LONGER than syncros because they are larger and more robust

i was referring to the dog ring

in the previous post to this u mentioned it was narrower that a synchro, allowing a wider gear..........this statement i agree with

but in the quoted post u say a dog ring is larger than a synchro....now....how can it be larger....if it is narrower, and the gear is the same size?

[Mr_will]

i was referring to the dog ring

in the previous post to this u mentioned it was narrower that a synchro, allowing a wider gear..........this statement i agree with

but in the quoted post u say a dog ring is larger than a synchro....now....how can it be larger....if it is narrower, and the gear is the same size?

the teeth are larger than the teeth on a sycnro. a syncro is cone shaped.

overall a dog ring is smaller.

[jezza323]

So it's your choice a box that you can shift minutely quicker and shift without using the clutch at the price of noise, hopping out of gear, and most of all LESS RELIABILITY.

thank you :) this is what i was trying to point out

you will be hard pressed to find a serious race team with a dog box who dont have it rebuilt VERY regularly

[NAY]

Dont bother with a dog box for a street car!

A house mate of mine had a straight cut 1-4 syncro box in an import bluebird SSS. It was noisy as bugger but at least it had syncro convenience. The best part about it was that 5th was still helical cut and standard. Meant you could put it in 5th and no one would be any the wiser.

The first 4 gears were noisy, but not ridiculously. People would stop and look though.

[mqt55s]

http://www.gccorp.com.au/automotive/product_info.php?cPath=24_29_75&products_id=124

and how to drive it
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RKoVykuzVQ4

[Sexc86]

wholey shit 34 replies... have had a good read, thanks everyone for all the input!

nay... was that a fella from qld ? he worked at charlies motors? i think back a few years ago they owned a pretty crazy bluebird with a dog, or maybe your housemate bought it off them?

[JohnL]

Straight cut gears may look larger but if you actually measure them compared to a same gear width helical cut gear face the helical one is LONGER to make the curve and is therefore stronger because there is more surface area engaged at any given time.

This may well be the case (that a helical gear tooth is effectively wider than the actual gear width), but my understanding (on which I'm willing to be corrected) is that with a helical gear only a portion of each tooth is ever engaged at any moment (this loaded portion moving along / across the gear face as the gear tooth moves into then out of engagement) and its this that can adversely affect strength because failure can occur when only part of a tooth breaks off because only a part of each tooth is ever loaded at any moment. So, if this is correct then the 'effective' increased width created by the angle of the helical gear is possibly not relevant, i.e. creates no additional strength.

On the other hand, with a straight cut gear the full width of each tooth is always engaged when loaded, so for failure to occur the whole tooth needs to break, which is less likely because the whole tooth is loaded and not just a portion of it. If we consider that we can also make the gear tooth physically wider because we don't require space for synchromesh then the straight cut gear picks up strength for at least two reasons.

Straight gears are more efficient because they generate zero side thrust. Helical gears, because the teeth are angled attempt to laterally thrust each other out of engagement. This creates a strong side thrust that is resisted by the 'thrust washers', but there must be frictional losses generated at the trust washer faces and therefore additional heat generated ('wasted' energy has to go somewhere, and its usually to heat). This wasted heat energy is power that becomes unavailable at the wheels.

At any rate I know how to easily fix your problem, detune the engine!

[SPEEDCORE]

What ran through my mind reading your reply was..... true... only a portion of the helical tooth is engaged at any given time... as it moves "across" as you said.

However I keep thinking of the actual number of teeth that are engaged in a helical setup... and thus the force is getting taken by more than 1 tooth at a time lessening the force on each individual one.

Tell me... in a straight cut setup.... is there more than 1 tooth engaged at a time?

[Mr_will]

What ran through my mind reading your reply was..... true... only a portion of the helical tooth is engaged at any given time... as it moves "across" as you said.

However I keep thinking of the actual number of teeth that are engaged in a helical setup... and thus the force is getting taken by more than 1 tooth at a time lessening the force on each individual one.

Tell me... in a straight cut setup.... is there more than 1 tooth engaged at a time?


unless the gears manage to take up some shape that is not circular, overall, there would be no increase in the number of teeth engaged at any one time.

whilst ever the circumference of the gears remains the same, it is impossible for more teeth to be engaged at any one time.

[JohnL]

What ran through my mind reading your reply was..... true... only a portion of the helical tooth is engaged at any given time... as it moves "across" as you said.

However I keep thinking of the actual number of teeth that are engaged in a helical setup... and thus the force is getting taken by more than 1 tooth at a time lessening the force on each individual one.

Tell me... in a straight cut setup.... is there more than 1 tooth engaged at a time?

With helical gears I think (i.e. do not know for sure!) that there is time when more than one tooth pair are simultaneously in contact (a tooth pair being one tooth on each gear that are in contact with each other at any moment). However this is only a brief overlapping moment as one tooth pair is leaving engagement and the next pair starting to engage. In this state the teeth pairs (that are just starting to engage and those leaving engagement) will only be contacting each other near the tips of the teeth, where the metal is thinnest and weakest...

In between there is a period when only one pair of teeth are in contact with each other, but on the plus side the teeth will be contacting each other in the meatier parts of the teeth where the metal is thicker and stronger.

With helical gears there is constant contact between the gears (i.e some tooth on each gear is always contacting another tooth at some point), so power transfer from one gear to the other is seamless and there will be no 'chatter' between the gears. I expect this is the reason why helical gears are quiet.

With straight cut gears I doubt this is quite possible, there is likely to be a micro/nano second when no contact exists between any teeth. As the gears rotate, if they were in constant contact from one tooth pair to the next then there would be a seamless transmission of power from one gear to the other, and I'd expect 'seamless' to equate with quiet. This might explain the banshee howl that straight cut gears typically produce, i.e. thousands of little teeth 'impacts' as minute gear lash is taken up. I'm no expert on this, I could be wrong!

Noise brings me back to efficiency. I said 'waste' energy is typically 'lost' as heat, but it's also lost as noise. The noise a straight cut box makes is lost / wasted energy, but I'd be willing to bet its less than is lost as heat by the side thrust of helical gears.

[NAY]

wholey shit 34 replies... have had a good read, thanks everyone for all the input!

nay... was that a fella from qld ? he worked at charlies motors? i think back a few years ago they owned a pretty crazy bluebird with a dog, or maybe your housemate bought it off them?

He was from qld but it was actually a pretty standard bluebird. He did the box once and didnt want to keep replacing it so a PPG straight cut went in. Unfortunately the straight cut box died, it some how binded up with 2 gears, snapped one of the shafts and spat the end off the box. Back for another few months as a warantee job.

[BlueBeast]

dogboxes are mainly for drag and track, no point if your going to get it and used it to drive around daily.

my friend has a dog box in his wrx, since wrx gearboxes are lil girls they break so easy. so he got one from STI life time warranty.
it has broken twice and been fixed so quickly by STI.

4k is a good price with warranty?

5gearbox wow!
how much power you putting out and what clutch are you running?
I think you're a little loose with your info there...STi/Subaru do not sell dog boxes!! I should know as we've got an STi typeR with a dog box and the box certainly didn't come from STi, it came from PPG. STi will only sell you their STi box which is a little stronger than the WRX box in 5 speed but considerably stronger in the 6 speed.
PPG are in Adelaide, check out their website to see what boxes are available 'off the shelf'.
I agree that $4K for a dog box is certainly cheap. The PPG will be around $8-9K.

[turbo convert]

I think you're a little loose with your info there...STi/Subaru do not sell dog boxes!! I should know as we've got an STi typeR with a dog box and the box certainly didn't come from STi, it came from PPG. STi will only sell you their STi box which is a little stronger than the WRX box in 5 speed but considerably stronger in the 6 speed.
PPG are in Adelaide, check out their website to see what boxes are available 'off the shelf'.
I agree that $4K for a dog box is certainly cheap. The PPG will be around $8-9K.

AGREE!!!! with above first i ever heard of Subaru selling dogboxes!!!!, wrx boxes arnt that bad aslong as you know how to drive them, and you dont change the clutch to H/D you wont have a problem.

[bennjamin]

meh.

The main reason "straight teethed" boxes or dog boxes arent used is the NOISE they make. Notice reverse whines ? Try that in every forward gear lol.

[BlueBeast]

meh.

The main reason "straight teethed" boxes or dog boxes arent used is the NOISE they make. Notice reverse whines ? Try that in every forward gear lol.

Agreed not so good for a daily driver but man do they provide a lot of fun on the track and for those:thumbsup: weekend sprints thru the twisties!

[nd55]

[ Note: Internet mechnic in the area]

Hey,

I take it from Sexc86's sig this is primarily a D16 discussion.

Just thought I'd weigh in with some thoughts, most relfecting 'tranzex', the resident transmission guru on d-series.org, others my own.

Further, there have been MANY similar discussions on d-series.org about this very topic. Right now it's Friday night and I can't be assed looking for them. Bite me.

Honda sohc gearboxes have been proven to take up to 400Hp, reasonably reliably.

The key is to 'pre-load' the clutch such that the pressure plate is applying some light load, briefly before launching.

Dumping the clutch is what does all the damage. Do whatever you can to mitigate the shock and the ol' D16 box will be fine.

If you can't grasp 'preloading' despite trying, look into a Tilton flow control vale. It's a one way valve which lets the clutch go in with out resistance, but applies a restriction to the hydraulic fluid flow when releasing the clutch. This reduces the shock loads to the drivetrain. About $200 plus some custom fabing to fit.

BMW equip their manual boxes with an OEM version of this for a lot less. The hassle there is the valve is threaded are for bemmers (DOH!) and custom fabing will be required again. approx $40 + custom fabing.

Be prepared for blank looks when you go to the parts counter and ask.

A complication on this, is that some BMWs come with a sophisticated one-way valve which flows freely when you push the clutch in, but restricts fluid flow on release. Others are a simple orifice, about 0.8mm which restricts fluid flow both ways. You probably don't want the later in a performance application. I don't know how tell whch one is which.

There is quite a controversy amongst beemer owners regarding this valve because if not setup properly with regards to the dead travel at the top and bottom of the clutch pedal swing. it can make driving difficult.

Many simply remove the valve.

The dead travel issue also affects the tilton gadget.



RE: straight cut gears and helical.

Straight cut gears are cheaper and more importantly the equipment is much cheaper, more productive and more available.

I remember working for Borg Warner Villawood (about 20 yrs ago), being in a room full of specialized machines cutting diff hypoid gears. Those machines worked constantly and nobody dared stop them. Production loss was too valuable.

I doubt there are ANY such multi-million dollar machines in Oz, sitting idle waiting for someone to decide they need a couple of gear sets.

Straight cut gears can be made using much simpler equipment, and re-configured to cut different ratios easier.

Of course this was before CNC machines.

One point many are missing is that helical gears put a side load on the gear, which in turn loads the transmission case. This one very good reason for straight cut gears in high Hp boxes.

Wrx boxes are a bad example. Relatively high Hp, great traction (awd) on a box originally designed for a much lighter (non-turbo, non-awd) load.

There is a group (US based) heat treating D-series gears to make them mucho stronger. The consensus (tranzex) is that the lack of traction (and load) and not solving the side loading issue prevents this from being a good & effective idea. Also, for the price you could probably do a K20 swap. pointless.
'racersteve' @ honda-tech
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1652273


The synchro to dog ring conversion is a drag only setup.
http://www.libertysgears.com/faceplate.htm
gives you and idea of what it looks like.
and here for another (US based) group who do this.
http://www.racegearbox.com/

>> ummmmmmm then why are they used on high budget drag and track cars?
> because they allow quicker shifting, without the clutch, thats why.
Actually the gears themselves do not determine the shift speeds.
In a dog box, like a helical box, all the gears are constantly meshed and do not move, apart from rotating.
It's the dog rings or synchro rings which slide and determine which gear is engaged and thus the shift speed is determined by those, rather than the gears transmitting the torque.
Modern Ferrari boxes are conventional synchro type boxes which are computer actuated/co-ordinated and can shift gears within 150 milliseconds.
Whilst you might think this is stratospheric stuff, the technology behind the shifting mechnism is the same as a d16 synchro box. Importantly, fast shifts with synchro rings are definitely possible.
Tranzex promotes a shifting technique, whereby the clutch is only pressed maybe a 1/4 of the way in, and makes very rapid shifting possible.
I've tried it and gotten some good, very fast shifts, but get way too many crunches and don't do it very often, if at all.
I suspect this technique is especially suited to 1-2, and 3-4 shifts. Here because the the gears are on the same main shaft, the main shaft is already spinning.
On a 2-3 shift, you unload from the 1-2 main shaft and transfer to the 3-4 shaft which takes time to speed up. Just a theory any comments?

Lastly, there has been some chatter on d-series.org regards diff pins breaking. This is not the gears themselves. Perhaps the gears are collateral damage with all the bits of metal flying around the case.

I'm also assuming wheel hop isn't a contributor here. solid motor mounts and traction bars are your friends.

Nick.
PS. This is mostly the result of my own research. I havn't actually done almost anything talked about here.

[cracker]

bump for any more infor regarding dog boxes, i just bought a subaru with one in it and want to get 2 no abit more about them!

[trism]

Dog box doesny mean straight cut gears, it means no synchros.

Please don't get the two confused.

You can have straight cut gears with synchros, and you can have a dog box with helical cut gears.

I've got a feeling you simply have a straight cut gear set, because an actual dog box is worth about 8 grand.

[cracker]

dont bother respond dude i bumped up a 5 year old thread lol i just want some more info on dog box's

[trism]

Huh? Your post makes no sense. You bumped to get some more info on dog boxes coz you just bought a car with one.

I simply respond with a make sure you're not confusing dog box with straight cut gear set.

[cracker]

oh shit sorry trism LOL i thought u were talking 2 OP..

how do you no how much my dogbox cost lol, I have a receipt for the dog box installed with new clutch for 11k

[trism]

Well in that case, that's a fair call.

I'm just saying that 90% of people get confused and call a straight cut gear set a dog box.

[Bludger]

oh shit sorry trism LOL i thought u were talking 2 OP..

how do you no how much my dogbox cost lol, I have a receipt for the dog box installed with new clutch for 11k
what you charge for test drive?

lol

[cracker]

more than you can afford pal.... http://www.beyondhollywood.com/stillsx/2007/10/paul-walker-vin-diesel-fast-furious-1.thumbnail.jpg

[mocchi]

oh shit sorry trism LOL i thought u were talking 2 OP..

how do you no how much my dogbox cost lol, I have a receipt for the dog box installed with new clutch for 11k

what does it say in receipt? you didnt ask seller/mechanic?

[Bludger]

what does it say in receipt? you didnt ask seller/mechanic?
he bought the car with the dog box

[cracker]

im not asking if it is a dogbox or not, i just want to c if anyone has any experiences with them or not..

[Bludger]

let me drive your car and I'll tell you some experiences

[cracker]

anyone else have suggestions besides my new stalker ?

[mocchi]

bump for any more infor regarding dog boxes, i just bought a subaru with one in it and want to get 2 no abit more about them!


Dog box doesny mean straight cut gears, it means no synchros.

Please don't get the two confused.

You can have straight cut gears with synchros, and you can have a dog box with helical cut gears.

I've got a feeling you simply have a straight cut gear set, because an actual dog box is worth about 8 grand.


dont bother respond dude i bumped up a 5 year old thread lol i just want some more info on dog box's


Huh? Your post makes no sense. You bumped to get some more info on dog boxes coz you just bought a car with one.

I simply respond with a make sure you're not confusing dog box with straight cut gear set.


oh shit sorry trism LOL i thought u were talking 2 OP..

how do you no how much my dogbox cost lol, I have a receipt for the dog box installed with new clutch for 11k


im not asking if it is a dogbox or not, i just want to c if anyone has any experiences with them or not..


anyone else have suggestions besides my new stalker ?

what are you actually asking?
info on dog box - specs, ratio on your car?
experience from ppl who have ridden in one
suggestion what to do with dog box, how to shift
your dog box is with synchro or not
your dog box is straight cut or helical
whos your new stalker
oil to use
n199as in paris

[trism]

Ball so hard motherfcukers wanna fine me

[cracker]

what are you actually asking?
info on dog box - specs, ratio on your car?
experience from ppl who have ridden in one
suggestion what to do with dog box, how to shift
your dog box is with synchro or not
your dog box is straight cut or helical
whos your new stalker Bludger
oil to use
n199as in paris

see highlighted areas.

[trism]

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=738435

[Scholzey]

hmmm i want a helical cut dog enguagement 5 speed with longer final drive then my standard so i can cruise in my big block b series at like 3000 instead of 4000 at 120kph and trap around 135-140mph in 4th gear at the drags with 24inch tyre... mmmm

shits not cheap though..

i notice that at the drags, when you have a fast car, time between gears starts to make a big difference and kills mph and getting back on boost... unless you wanna shred the shit outta your synchros..

Albins Honda B Series Road/Race 1-5 Dog Engagement Gear Set
$6700 usd

or

Honda Civic 5spd Dog Box (inc 5.545 F/D) '94-'99 EK,EG & DC2
$9350 aud

if only...

[cracker]

as I've begun driving this car more regularly and more aggressively (I don't partake in or condone street racing) the box actually begs for you to shift harder, the feeling of hitting the perfect shift is mental, I've never been so comfortable smashing through gears before, shifting like a pussy gets u no where in this box, shift it like u stole it finally makes sense now.. for anyone interested in these box's ... they live up 2 the hype..