Jdm dc2r, boring out throttle body

[dslt]

Hey guys, at work today my mate was telling me to bore out my throttle body or whatever it is, not exactly sure what it's meant to do. He was telling me it will give me better throttle response. Could someone please give me a better explanation n how will it affect my performance? Also where abouts in melbourne can i get this done


Cheers =)

[yellow-dc2]

The idea is to increase the diameter and create a Venturi effect which allows for high flow and air transfer through your throttle body to allow more air flow, more air flow then creates better response and in some cases considerable power gains. it is very common to do this on Honda's and isn't that expensive $100 to $200 from memory.

I havn't had it done for a while so i don't know anyone in Melbourne anymore, maybe just ring a couple of mechanics and ask if they know someone, and find a reputable company as it can be done the wrong way, but its rear.

[yellow-dc2]

This is a crude picture i drew to explain the Venturi

As air enters it is almost compressed as the path narrows then it creates a higher flow when exiting, i don't know the exact scientific explanation but thats basically the way it works.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w88/blacktopspirit/venturi.jpg

[dslt]

Thanks for the the info guys, So if i get this done is it a 50/50 chance that i might lose some throttle response? or is a definate gain
=)

[yellow-dc2]

It can only make things better, as long as you don't go over board to the point that your ECU doesn't understand whats happening there will only be gains.

It will also work even better with a full exhaust.

If you Generalize it, try and think of your engine as an air compressor, the more air you can pump through the more performance you will get, so induction and exhaust are a good start.

[tinkerbell]

you will gain throttle response, but it will mean you have to put your foot down 40% instead of 50% to get the same acceleration... (i.e. you gain "throttle response")

bored throttle bodies are only required after serious modifications to improve volumetric efficency...

[tinkerbell]

It can only make things better,

nah, that is just an illusion, it wont make any more power on a stock engine, it will only change how much he has to put his right foot down... (unless he has soem serious modifications to the internals already...)

[yellow-dc2]

you will gain throttle response, but it will mean you have to put your foot down 40% instead of 50% to get the same acceleration... (i.e. you gain "throttle response")

bored throttle bodies are only required after serious modifications to improve volumetric efficency...

I'm not even going to bother:thumbdwn:

[Toy Honda]

nah, that is just an illusion, it wont make any more power on a stock engine, it will only change how much he has to put his right foot down... (unless he has soem serious modifications to the internals already...)


Thats actually incorrect! I have never seen an upgraded throttle body NOT produce more power on the dyno, in most cases you will have to get an exhaust done as well but even a cat back will help.

It is a myth that the engine needs internal work to cope with higher air flow. as Yellow-dc2 stated exhaust and induction is a good place to start, then work your internals if your serous about making more power

[yellow-dc2]

Thats actually incorrect! I have never seen an upgraded throttle body NOT produce more power on the dyno, in most cases you will have to get an exhaust done as well but even a cat back will help.

It is a myth that the engine needs internal work to cope with higher air flow. as Yellow-dc2 stated exhaust and induction is a good place to start, then work your internals if your serous about making more power


Thank you for saying what i couldn't be bothered, I would rep you if i could

just to further add

You might want to try these guys
http://www.efihardware.com/
There just in Blackburn i think, and do all sorts of custom setups, if they don't actually bore them out them selfs they should know someone who does.

[tinkerbell]

Thats actually incorrect! I have never seen an upgraded throttle body NOT produce more power on the dyno, in most cases you will have to get an exhaust done as well but even a cat back will help.

It is a myth that the engine needs internal work to cope with higher air flow. as Yellow-dc2 stated exhaust and induction is a good place to start, then work your internals if your serous about making more power

interesting, so a stock engine will make more power with just a larger throttle body? I wonder why honda sold cars with lower power than was possible? Why dont hondas all come with 65mm throttle bodies? Can you explain why you seem to believe that the honda throttle body is a source of restriction? (and for bonus points, maybe you could discuss port matching the throttle body to the intake manifold once it has been bored out. You know, which might also help the guy with his original question?)

[Kiz_EG6]

interesting, so a stock engine will make more power with just a larger throttle body? I wonder why honda sold cars with lower power than was possible? Why dont hondas all come with 65mm throttle bodies? Can you explain why you seem to believe that the honda throttle body is a source of restriction? (and for bonus points, maybe you could discuss port matching the throttle body to the intake manifold once it has been bored out. You know, which might also help the guy with his original question?)

...so if what you are saying is correct, then tell me why honda did not bring all their cars out with factory 4:1 extractors, as these make more power also, it's all about the cost and economy isn't it genious!?!

I would class a throttle body as a bolt on mod and there are plenty of bolt on's which honda could have released their cars with factory standard, which make more power, why don't they release them with a leaner fuel map too?

[Kiz_EG6]

interesting, so a stock engine will make more power with just a larger throttle body? I wonder why honda sold cars with lower power than was possible? Why dont hondas all come with 65mm throttle bodies? Can you explain why you seem to believe that the honda throttle body is a source of restriction? (and for bonus points, maybe you could discuss port matching the throttle body to the intake manifold once it has been bored out. You know, which might also help the guy with his original question?)

Also, further to the matter, i put a B16B T.B on my stock B16A and definately made more power under this, so i vouch for what yellow-dc2 and toy honda are saying 1st hand :)

[tinkerbell]

...so if what you are saying is correct, then tell me why honda did not bring all their cars out with factory 4:1 extractors, as these make more power also, it's all about the cost and economy isn't it genious!?!

I would class a throttle body as a bolt on mod and there are plenty of bolt on's which honda could have released their cars with factory standard, which make more power, why don't they release them with a leaner fuel map too?

yes, like the first B16A went from 58mm to 60mm in the 2nd gen, and the Type R's got the 62mm ones...

the ORIGINAL POSTER has a JDM Type R with 62mm

so WHY is he going to GAIN power from boring it out further if he has stock engine?


FYI - i have a B20VTEC, and got my TB bored out to 63mm, and gained power, so i ALSO prove that on a MODIFIED engine it helps...

yellow-dc2 said it would provide power gains on a STOCK engine...


that is all.

[tinkerbell]

Also, further to the matter, i put a B16B T.B on my stock B16A and definately made more power under this, so i vouch for what yellow-dc2 and toy honda are saying 1st hand :)

feel free to post up the dyno sheets!!!

[yellow-dc2]

yellow-dc2 said it would provide power gains on a STOCK engine...





And it will, for the same reason people put XF Falcon Throttle body's on stock SR20's and 4AGE motors, you don't need internal work for gains, the minimum he will need is a cat back exhaust to see considerable improvements.

Honda don't make engines to be the most powerful they can be, if they did this you would N/A 1.8 ltr motors revving to 12K and costing $200 on fuel, they make a balanced car not a super car!

[tinkerbell]

so do you agree honda matched the throtle body to provide a BALANCE with all the other components??

[aaronng]

They don't make 1.8L motors revving to 12k because they need it to be reliable for up to over 200,000km, not having to be rebuilt every 20,000km.

[Kiz_EG6]

They don't make 1.8L motors revving to 12k because they need it to be reliable for up to over 200,000km, not having to be rebuilt every 20,000km.

That's exactly right, but they also have to be cost effective, therefore they do not put bigger throttle bodies on, or elaborate induction systems or 4:1 stainless steel extractors etc...
This is why we can improve on the performance of a car with bolt ons and i know from personal experience that a larger or bored out throttle body is definately a good candidate even on a stock engine.

I do not have a dyno sheet to prove this, as the only way i know it had a pick up was;
A) the way the car felt
B) in the diagnostic response i got from my emanage after fitting the T.B and taking her for a run!!

[tinkerbell]

I do not have a dyno sheet to prove this, as the only way i know it had a pick up was;
A) the way the car felt
B) in the diagnostic response i got from my emanage after fitting the T.B and taking her for a run!!

yes, i 100% agree any engine will *feel* more responsive with a larger throttle body.

[Kiz_EG6]

yes, i 100% agree any engine will *feel* more responsive with a larger throttle body.

Again, as i said, the report the emanage gave proves more than just a better "feel"

Besides, there is nothing wrong with a car "feeling" more responsive, that is a good thing, makes you more confident that you can push it that little bit more, sorry i wish i had some quarter mile times or something to prove what it could do... anyone else had experience?!?

[tinkerbell]

Again, as i said, the report the emanage gave proves more than just a better "feel"

actually *proves* nothing

Besides, there is nothing wrong with a car "feeling" more responsive,

i never said there was.

that is a good thing, makes you more confident that you can push it that little bit more,

not really relevent what its effects on the driver are, is it?

sorry i wish i had some quarter mile times or something to prove what it could do... anyone else had experience?!?

check out http://www.maxbore.com/

and his vouch thread:

http://honda-tech.com/zeropost?cmd=tshow&id=771875

[Kiz_EG6]

check out http://www.maxbore.com/

and his vouch thread:

http://honda-tech.com/zeropost?cmd=tshow&id=771875

...So you are now saying that they do give an improvement and you have linked me to a site with people's claims of a gain.
Tell me, have you ever put a larger T.B on a stock B series or not, coz if you haven't then where are you coming from?!?

Oh yeah and you are also saying that a diagnostic from a piggy back system, linked DIRECTLY into my ECU is not proving anything!?!

[tinkerbell]

...So you are now saying that they do give an improvement and you have linked me to a site with people's claims of a gain.

please, feel free to link all the posts from the Maxbore thread about POWER gains, especially ones from stock engines.

Tell me, have you ever put a larger T.B on a stock B series or not, coz if you haven't then where are you coming from?!?

have not. i am coming from the perspective that understands a bored TB wont provide gains in power on a stock engine, it will ONLY provide a gain in throttle response

Oh yeah and you are also saying that a diagnostic from a piggy back system, linked DIRECTLY into my ECU is not proving anything!?!

please feel free to post up details of your diagnostics :thumbsup:

[Kiz_EG6]

The car looks like this now

7390

and it was quite a while ago that i did it all, so sorry, not really possible!!

[tinkerbell]

doh! sorry to see that picture :(

hope you were OK!!!

[Zilli]

Don't bother Dave...

[tinkerbell]

Don't bother Dave...

Ok.

i will stop here.

sorry :o

[Kiz_EG6]

Ok.

i will stop here.

sorry :o

That's cool man, i didn't post the pic for sympathy, i'm well over it now, it was 12 months ago, but, yeah, maybe you can see why...

If the car was still around, i would be tempted to dyno with, and then without type R T.B to see if there is an KW difference of any kind, but as i have said, i am confident that there would have been!

I don't have any before/after dyno results, as they guy that fine tuned it for me prefers to tune real time on the track/street, so we were out in the open when we did it!!

[tinkerbell]

i would be tempted to dyno with, and then without type R T.B to see if there is an KW difference of any kind,

you see, there is the flipside to what you are saying...

if there WAS a difference, when people dyno'd after a TB change, you would be able to find posts about it.

but there aren't any... are there? even the in the Maxbore vouch thread? :confused: see my reason for posting that - to allow you to seek teh answers yourself???

ATEOTD - on a relativly stock engine it is about throttle response, i.e. what the original poster WAS ACTUALLY ASKING ABOUT before yellow-dc2 started going on about Venturi etc etc trying to sound 'all knowing' or 'super-technical'

[tinkerbell]

in fact, if you search all of http://www.honda-tech.com/zerosearch archives, you will consistently find people saying boring TB's provides little gains untill you get a turbo...

let us know if you find any dynos prints that show power gains from just a TB upgrade :)

[yellow-dc2]

why don't instead of us trying to prove to you, YOU try and prove to us that a larger TB on a stock engine will NOT make more power, you have not presented an argument as well as toy honda and kiz-eg6, so it really seems pointless you continuing this.

kiz-eg6 doesn't need to prove him self to you, he knows for him self, i know from other people's experiences that i have seen with my own eyes.

what experience do you have with a B18 tinkerbell?

[yellow-dc2]

in fact, if you search all of http://www.honda-tech.com/zerosearch archives, you will consistently find people saying boring TB's provides little gains untill you get a turbo...

let us know if you find any dynos prints that show power gains from just a TB upgrade :)

little gains? so now your saying there is gains in power? i think your starting to confuse yourself...

[tinkerbell]

huh?

nope. that is not how it works.

have a search on honda-tech, you will find nothing...

[yellow-dc2]

huh?

nope. that is not how it works.

have a search on honda-tech, you will find nothing...


as you have found nothing!

[tinkerbell]

little gains, so know your saying there is gains in power? i think your starting to confuse yourself...

i think you need to learn some english grammar? :confused:

[tinkerbell]

as you have found nothing!

yes, exacty - nothing to prove that TB boring gains power on stock engine!

[tinkerbell]

Don't bother Dave...

yeah, i am starting to get that feeling...

[yellow-dc2]

If you just want to get the last word in thats fine,

I vote this thread to be closed, as it has no longer added to the original question

[Dxs]

what is it with knobs trying to censor everything and asking for things to be closed..

but anyway

i am running a bored 64mm TB on a b16, mid range torque is lost but there is a tad more power on super high rpm.. I have done this mod in preparation for a bigger block in the future though.

You have to remember, basically, bigger = more flow = more power
but smaller generally = more air velocity = more torque

for torque there needs to be some restriction

[BlitZ]

Somene sponsor me 2 dyno runs..

I'll tapper bore my ITB ... If all I would get is better throttle response, i would be happy enough.... response makes it fun....

if you want power go turbo.


I have also read that stock bores will suffice for std power apps.

[Kiz_EG6]

Somene sponsor me 2 dyno runs..

I'll tapper bore my ITB ... If all I would get is better throttle response, i would be happy enough.... response makes it fun....

if you want power go turbo.


I have also read that stock bores will suffice for std power apps.

Are you in Vic?
I may be able to do so out Campbellfield way, if you are in Vic, then i can at least ask the question!!

[tinkerbell]

Somene sponsor me 2 dyno runs..

I'll tapper bore my ITB ... If all I would get is better throttle response, i would be happy enough.... response makes it fun....

if you want power go turbo.


I have also read that stock bores will suffice for std power apps.

you have ITB? Individual Throttle Bodies?

[yellow-dc2]

you have ITB? Individual Throttle Bodies?

as above?

If you have Individual Throttle Bodies there is no point.

[tinkerbell]

as above?

If you have Individual Throttle Bodies there is no point.

OMG! you get a PQ! :thumbsup:

[BlitZ]

you have ITB? Individual Throttle Bodies?

opps i meant TB...

I got a lathe though. ;)

[Kiz_EG6]

opps i meant TB...

I got a lathe though. ;)

That's all well and good, but how you going to make a new butterfly?!?

So you in Vic or not?

[yellow-dc2]

That's all well and good, but how you going to make a new butterfly?!?

So you in Vic or not?

not by the "Wakefield" in his sig

just make some butterflys up with a pair of tin snips:p

[Kiz_EG6]

not by the "Wakefield" in his sig

just make some butterflys up with a pair of tin snips:p

Yeah, real good seal that'll make! car will probably idle a 2.5k!! :confused:

Just cos he's taken his car to wakefield, doesn't mean he is interstate!!

[aaronng]

Yeah, real good seal that'll make! car will probably idle a 2.5k!! :confused:

Just cos he's taken his car to wakefield, doesn't mean he is interstate!!

Pretty long drive just to get to Wakie and to EC........

[Kiz_EG6]

Pretty long drive just to get to Wakie and to EC........

People have done stranger things :p

[aaronng]

People have done stranger things :p

If you check his other FS threads, he's in NSW.

[Kiz_EG6]

If you check his other FS threads, he's in NSW.

Ok i get the point, it was just an offer, i have a hub dyno at my disposal for a small time, just thought i'd ask the question, i wasn't going to search threads for his location :)

[BlitZ]

That's all well and good, but how you going to make a new butterfly?!?

So you in Vic or not?

Im going to try for a tapperd bore outter and maybe port match on manifold side...

retain std butterfly with std surface area at butterfly..

think spoon has it similar..

[Kiz_EG6]

Im going to try for a tapperd bore outter and maybe port match on manifold side...

retain std butterfly with std surface area at butterfly..

think spoon has it similar..

Do you think it'll have the same effect as a full bore, or are you trying to get a ram like effect?

[BlitZ]

Do you think it'll have the same effect as a full bore, or are you trying to get a ram like effect?

might sound stupid:
I guess the tappered bore must work by design as spoon utilises it.. at the very least it should not make things worst.

only reason i am completing a taper bore is b/c i would hate it if i lost the honda idle.. and I also dont want to replace the butterfly


I will still need to do abit more research on the topic.. I think totti has something similiar... havent really spoken to him to find out its benefits

[Kiz_EG6]

might sound stupid:
I guess the tappered bore must work by design as spoon utilises it.. at the very least it should not make things worst.

only reason i am completing a taper bore is b/c i would hate it if i lost the honda idle.. and I also dont want to replace the butterfly


I will still need to do abit more research on the topic.. I think totti has something similiar... havent really spoken to him to find out its benefits

Yes but spoon would be using it on an internally worked engine!
I am still sticking to my original sentiments, as i believe that a larger T.B can give you a pickup in performance on a stock engine, though i do not beieve that a tapered bore would!

[tinkerbell]

I am still sticking to my original sentiments, as i believe that a larger T.B can give you a pickup in performance on a stock engine, though i do not beieve that a tapered bore would!

LOL!

please see post #2 and #3 in this thread.

a tapered bore is what yellow-dc2 started randomly talking about initially, which is quite ironic i guess? this thread has come full circle!

[tinkerbell]

might sound stupid:
I guess the tappered bore must work by design as spoon utilises it.. at the very least it should not make things worst.

only reason i am completing a taper bore is b/c i would hate it if i lost the honda idle.. and I also dont want to replace the butterfly



i did my TB to 63mm and had the butterfly plate replaced,

my idle is fine, and have no problems at all... :thumbsup:

[Kiz_EG6]

LOL!

please see post #2 and #3 in this thread.

a tapered bore is what yellow-dc2 started randomly talking about initially, which is quite ironic i guess? this thread has come full circle!

Down i go... so the whole argument we have had our wires crossed :p
So tell me, you thought i was talking bout a tapered bore the whole time?

Also, as you stated tink, if you get a proper new butterfly with a good seal, the idle will not be an issue :)

[tinkerbell]

nah man, we are all talking from different perspectives,

the middle ground was reached about 10-15 posts ago,

but THEN Blitz brought it wonderfully off topic, and brings up the side issue of tapering, which is largely related to theories about the Venturi effect...

which is what was mentioned initially by yellow-dc2, but was not actually what the OP was asking about.

I KNOW you were responding to the OP in his question, and we will agree to disagree on the relative gains from a bored TB on a stock engine.

I say it will only improve throttle response, not power,

and you will say it improves both.

since I can’t provide proof that it does NOT increase power, and you can’t provide proof that it DOES, then we are going to have to let it slide...

it is ironic that Blitz brought us back to the original 2nd and 3rd post though...

[Kiz_EG6]

nah man, we are all talking from different perspectives,

the middle ground was reached about 10-15 posts ago,

but THEN Blitz brought it wonderfully off topic, and brings up the side issue of tapering, which is largely related to theories about the Venturi effect...

which is what was mentioned initially by yellow-dc2, but was not actually what the OP was asking about.

I KNOW you were responding to the OP in his question, and we will agree to disagree on the relative gains from a bored TB on a stock engine.

I say it will only improve throttle response, not power,

and you will say it improves both.

since I can’t provide proof that it does NOT increase power, and you can’t provide proof that it DOES, then we are going to have to let it slide...

it is ironic that Blitz brought us back to the original 2nd and 3rd post though...

Funny huh, i will agree to disagree, but i would still even for my own sake like to see some before/after dyno results.
Maybe one day i will get a chance to do it!!
If i get the civic fired up again or the engine into a different car, i will borrow my g/f's stock T.B and do a dyno day or something, swap, them over and do three runs with each!!

I think that a tapered bore would have about as much effect on a stock motor as one of those electric ebay supercharger kits would HA!