Just got it lowered.. few questions

[CvcResponse]

EDIT: Further update at end of thread, read it too!


I recently got some koni coilovers installed on my ek civic sedan, dropped the ride height by about 2 inches. The place i got it from told me to come back next week for a check-up as its height/damper adjustable but i thought i'd ask a few q's here first..

Theres basically no gap between tyre and frame now, barely squeeze a finger through. It seems to handle okay except theres this clunking sound from the rear wheels whenever i go over speed bumps, driveways, uneven road.. even if i go over as slowly as possible. I've also noticed that the rear wheels seem to stick out ever so slightly and not at a right angle to the road, if that makes sense.. its not overly obvious but just wondering whats up with it. i have 16" wheels (205/45/16 tyres) which were put on before the suspension and also had a wheel alignment done.

Obviously the rear wheels must be hitting the guard or frame.. i noticed that the rear wheel frame might actually hit the outside tyre part as the wheels don't seem to snugly fit inside. As i said earlier they sort've stick out slightly on an angle. I think the wheels i have arent too big like 17s/18s but wondering if the 205 is too big? I think my stock wheels were 175/65/14.. so 195 or 205 for 16's seems ok.

I might raise the car slightly on the check-up, although i can adjust them myself anytime really. What other stuff might i need to improve the lowered suspension? I'm not very familiar with terms like sway bars, rollcages etc. so any advice would help!

[Zdster]

Congrats on the suspension.

A few things. The car will likely settle a bit over the next week or so and will sit lower than its current position. It sounds as though the wheel is hitting the guard or the inner wheel well. There are a few ways to fix this (flare the gaurds, raise the car, change wheels to somethign with a different offset etc).

The reason that the wheel no longer appears 90 degrees to the road is that by lowering you have induced some camber. Not a big deal, but I would suggest have an alignment done to make sure your toe settings are correct (otherwise you will eat through tires). It is worth doing an alignment any time you adjust your suspension.

[CvcResponse]

Thanks for your advice.. what exactly do u mean by flare the guards? I'd like to raise it but not by much and so it might still be a problem.. i'd like to keep the wheels but wondering if changing to 195 tyres would help?

Also would a sway bar be useful ?

[DUST]

Didn't you get a wheel alignment when you first put on your suspension? If not then get it done.

Raise the car up cause your wheels are hitting the guards on bumps. If it's free of charge get the shop to raise it up to a 1 finger gap or what you want.

[CvcResponse]

No wheel alignment done since the suspension was installed.. that might help!

[Zdster]

Sway bar shouldnt change the hitting that much (only the helps to add rigidity to stop body roll).

Get a wheel alignment done and consider changing the height. Tyres could also help.

[SiReal]

mates exhaust pipe was hitting his LCAs cos his car was too low. same deal - no finger gap.

[SiReal]

Sway bar shouldnt change the hitting that much (only the helps to add rigidity to stop body roll).

Get a wheel alignment done and consider changing the height. Tyres could also help.

if the endlinks are loose, u get a clunking sound when going over bumps and hills slowly.

[Zdster]

if the endlinks are loose, u get a clunking sound when going over bumps and hills slowly.

Jeff, he doesnt have a sway bar installed. He was asking if installing one would help.

[civic_99]

same problem I had when i got my coils installed in my ek sedan. Rolling on 215/35/18, rear wheels tucking in about 1/2inch and hearing this clunk noise every bump and hard corners. So I checked it myself and found out that the inner part of the rim is hitting the frame, so what i did was adjust the height by 25mm higher and it solved the problem, btw i have not done the wheel alignment since! :)

[nd55]

> i have 16" wheels (205/45/16 tyres)

I run this size tyre and plenty of other do too. No problems.

Whats the wheel offset? I think at least 40mm is required, 42mm is sweet.

With a 50mm drop you'll probably need to cut the OEM bump stops down.

> and also had a wheel alignment done.

Can't tell from the email, but I'm guessing you had an OEM wheel alignment done.
In this case your case was rolled onto a measuring table and the car wheels compared
with OEM specs.

If they are within range, then nothing happens.

Honda EK civics don't have any way to adjust anything but toe.

Toe setting is very important, and can chew your tyres out in a very short period of time.
I suggest a zero toe setting all round.
A little toe out on the front can improve steering response at the expense of making your vehicle
seem darty and tramline a lot.
EK civic have dynamic rear toe-in in the suspension geometry, so set that to zero.

My suggestion is to go back and get a print out of your cars wheel alignment, then
determine your best way to get -2.5 degrees front camber, -1.5 degrees rear.
[Camber settings courtesy of Whiteline]

For the rear, once-off camber adjustments are easy. Whiteline can ship you a simple bag of
bolts and washers which can get you into the range.

Fronts are much harder. Get the print-out and see if you need to change anything.

> What other stuff might i need to improve the lowered suspension

IMHO corner weighing a coil over setup is worthwhile, especially if it's done at the
same time as setting all the camber.

If you have a CX or GL model, you have a 22mm front sway and no rear sway bar.

Higher models had 26mm front and 14mm rear.

A good upgrade is to get a 26mm front (same vintage CR-V trucks, hint! hint!), and an ASR brace with a ITR 22m rear sway for the rear.

Another good & economical upgrade on EK civics are motor mount inserts & torque arms.
Once you've suffered a round of wheel hop, you'll want it gone for good.
Motor mounts can induce a LOT of vibration into the cabin.

Nick.

[iced]

probably got more neg camber now thats why.

give it a week before you do a a wheel alignment. lets the suspension settle. it might actually need readjustment bceause it might be too low after settling in.
if you want more negative camber at the front you need to get camber kit for both front and rear.
at the moment i would presume the rear camber is more negative than the front.

for the street you dont have to go more than -2 front -1 rear unless you are very agressive and hit the mountains a lot.

205's arent too wide.
if the wheels are wrong offset then it can rub the guards and suspension components.
visual check should confirm this anyway

[BlitZ]

mates exhaust pipe was hitting his LCAs cos his car was too low. same deal - no finger gap.

i bet he has an aftermarket exhaust... if bent correctly if should clear fine.

[BlitZ]

let it settle and get alignment...

but fark.. no suspension should clunk.. its probabaly one of the following


- Wheel hitting guard (fix with rolling)
- binding springs (fix with electrical spiral wire)
- farked up install (least likiliy)

[bennjamin]

too low , and springs not entirely captive will make suspension clunk.
(the spring will move in , out and around its intended seat while driving)
Also not properly tightened parts especially LCA points can clunk too

[iced]

swaybar endlinks can cause clunking too. tighten them up and make sure the endlinks and D bushes are lubed.

[dsp26]

mates exhaust pipe was hitting his LCAs cos his car was too low. same deal - no finger gap.

thanks for that... i was trying to figure out that noise on mine and never thought of that.. i thought it was the spring... the sound produced would be consistent to the solid metal clanking onto hollow pipe... must investigate tonight!!!

[CvcResponse]

Thanks for everyone's advice, i'll give an update...

I took it back to the shop it was installed for the check-up. Apparently there was a wheel alignment done afterwards. The maximum height lowered for my coilovers is 65 mm, i asked it to be around 50 mm to allow some gap but it turns out they dropped it the full 65... although being height adjustable its not a major drama. Anyway the guy said he *had* to change the camber (rear wheels sticking out on slight angle) in order to fit.... For some reason the wheels don't snugly fit inside the frame, and not being overly wide-ass wheels its kinda strange. With the wheels sticking out and no room to squeeze a finger right through, i'm sure that at least the outer part of the tyre must hit the guard/frame over bumps. There might be more contact happening inside too i dont know.

I don't have any aftermarket exhaust (yet) or swaybars installed on my car so they aren't a consideration which some ppl suggested.

I think the main issue is that my wheels seem to stick out more than they should and thus lowering with no gap is a problem.. I mean stick out even with normal camber and thus not fitting inside the frame. Does this relate to the wheel offset? Like basically how deep in each wheel is attached? Someone suggested an offset of 40-42 mm.. i'm not sure what it is now, would it be more or less for it to stick out? I'm guessing the stock wheels have an offset that left unchanged will make bigger wheels (from say 175 to 205) stick out.. Can i just take my car to bob janes and ask to change the offset? Shouldve the suspension shop have suggested i changed the offset first or done something themselves? Least of which dropping it the full height when i specified a certain height, and then working around the current set-up to fit, changing the camber and effectively reduce the rear tyre life.

Another solution also suggested is rolling the guards.. there are like thin black ones for the rear wheels, what does rolling mean exactly? The guy at the shop suggested this without explaining how you do it. That could help too.

[JohnL]

same problem I had when i got my coils installed in my ek sedan. Rolling on 215/35/18, rear wheels tucking in about 1/2inch and hearing this clunk noise every bump and hard corners. So I checked it myself and found out that the inner part of the rim is hitting the frame, so what i did was adjust the height by 25mm higher and it solved the problem, btw i have not done the wheel alignment since! :)

Due to rough roads, I raised the rear of my CB7 from standard to the max possible lift with Koni yellows (about 25mm or so). Before and after rear toe check revealed a toe change of about 0.5mm, almost nothing. This change in toe was from zero toe to toe in. It's proably still a good idea to check it after a ride height change, even if the change with my car was very slight.

[JohnL]

> i have 16" wheels (205/45/16 tyres)

I run this size tyre and plenty of other do too. No problems. .

Depends on the rim width. If you stay at the standard rim width then going wider in the tyre can cause sidewall instability problems, resulting in a softer ride but poorer steering reponse and in extreme cases more 'lurchy' handling. The standard rim width is probably already on the narrow side for the standard tyre width.



EK civic have dynamic rear toe-in in the suspension geometry, so set that to zero.

If it's like the rear end on the CB7 Accord, it's set up to gain toe-in with any vertical movement away from standard static height.

There are two lower lateral control arms, the rear one longer and the forward one shorter. These are both at or very close to being horizontal at standard ride height, and when they deflect up or down the outer end of the front one moves in a tighter arc (being shorter) than the outer end of the rear one (being longer). The result of this is that with vertical deflection up or down the outer end of the front arm moves laterally (becoming effectively shorter) more so than does outer end of the the rear arm, causing toe in at either rear wheel with any significant deflection up or down.

Lowering the suspension will change the static angles of both these arms (up toward the hub), and (assuming reset rear toe) with bump motion either wheel will still gain toe in, but with droop will now initially gain toe out, but then with further droop will revert back through zero toward toe in. Raising the rear end will have the opposite result.

[DA9jeff]

fantastic post johnL! sounds like you know what your on about! ps will lowering agrevate CV joint to the point they make a hooting sound when driving straight? i have a DA9 which i just got pedders springs, there only 10mm under legal hieght so its not as low as it could be (plenty of clearance) but it now makes a light whisstle when going straight, is this the CV's or a susp. bush thats worn? its done 200k so i susspect the CVs. sorry for thread hijacking:)

[JohnL]

fantastic post johnL! sounds like you know what your on about! ps will lowering agrevate CV joint to the point they make a hooting sound when driving straight? i have a DA9 which i just got pedders springs, there only 10mm under legal hieght so its not as low as it could be (plenty of clearance) but it now makes a light whisstle when going straight, is this the CV's or a susp. bush thats worn? its done 200k so i susspect the CVs. sorry for thread hijacking:)

Jeff,
Keep in mind that in my previous post I was only talking about the rear suspension, the front is different. The rear end is set up like this to encourage 'roll understeer' (car makers REALLY want their mass market cars to understeer!), and most probably to promote rear end stabilty under hard braking (i.e. the rear end rises causing rear toe-in, which is more directionally stable). For 'performance' driving it would generally be better if this didn't happen, the car would tend to be more 'linear' in it's on the limit handling characteristics if rear toe remained constant, which might be good for a skilled driver but might not be so good (safe) for less skillfull drivers because when you overstep the mark you're more likely to get oversteer.

To your questions. I don't really know for sure, but it would surprise me if lowering could cause a "hooting" (??!!) or "whistling" noise from the CVs. It's not a problem I've heard before, and a lot of people lower their cars, some quite a bit too much! (for legality as well as handling / grip). Besides, from your description it just doesn't seem like the sort of noise I'd tend to associate with CVs. MY bet is that you probably need to look elsewhere...

CVs are designed to cope with very large angular articulations, admittedly the outer ones typically more so than the inner ones (outer ones are more complex / expensive, inner ones less so, but inner ones don't have to 'steer'). Even so, I doubt lowering the car would cause enough angularity in the inner CVs to actually cause any problem unless perhaps the CV was marginal to start with... Someone else might know better?