Automatic Transmission Oil cooler

[beeza]

I've recently found out my 96 EK1 Civic Sedan d16y4 has a factory Transmission Oil Cooler.It runs through the bottom of the radiator.This won't be sufficent/efficient enough for the track.
Do I upgade the factory one or do I need to install a new system?

[ek4-guy]

Hey Brett just get yourself a core from a aircon unit some hose and the little pin type fasteners that go through your radiator. Then mount it on the front of ur radiator.

[beeza]

I had to read that a few times...hehe
But this should make the radiator a lot more powerful therefor making the factory transmission oil cooler more powerful aswell right?
I still don't get it though... where do the hoses go...

[ek4-guy]

ah if ur car is how i'm thinking you have a cooler built into the radiator and hoses running to that you take off those hoses because if that is your setup you need longer ones to get infront of the radiator.

and the core just comes from a home air-con unit it's the alloy pipe part that S's back and forth like a snake a few times then the ends of the pipe finish at the top and bottom. Thats were the hose from the transmision goes

they are also finned as in the alloy pipe has small strip's of alloy all around it to draw heat out and cool quicker


hey mate i quickly searched here is a link with a few pictures of the type thing you want to look for.

http://4x4trailhunters.com/article.php?id=21

Thats an after market one but youl find similar in any old aircon unit.

Also youl notice that they can mount on your cars AC condensor witch doesn't block any air flow to the radiator and at the same time takes the hot fluid away from your radiator witch should allow it to run somewhat cooler

[beeza]

Before I stared this thread I brought it up in the "Track dayz" thread.This is what SuperDave said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
I have never looked into adding a cooler to my manual transmission mainly because I'd have the minor hassel of having to add a pump. Auto transmissions, generally, already come with a crude cooler from the factory. Again, I have never looked into how effective they are. It will just look like a metal loop. If you trace it back to the transmission you just remove the factory one and replace it with a larger, finned cooler and run the hoses to the front of the car. But make sure it isn't one of those 'tube and fin' (aka snake, s) coolers as they do nothing. 'Plate and fin' is where the results are.

[ek4-guy]

ah yep i get you know some cars have coolers built into the radiator you should have one like in the picture but doesn't snake it just loops once

but as for the tube type coolers not working well thats what taxi's use because of their long idle periods were the oil can heat up.

and in the end why spend big money on a earls plate cooler when you could just get one out of an old aircon unit you could buy for $20 that is the same thing as taxi's pay $350 for

lol by the way here is that link

http://4x4trailhunters.com/article.php?id=21

[SuperDave]

Without actually seeing what the EM1 came with from the factory I can't really give out much more advice than general info. Also not having any automatic cars at home I can't look into out the factory cooler connects to the transmission. If there is some form of rubber hose that goes from the transmission to the cooler hard line, then you just attach some hose to the transmission end and run it to your cooler at the front of the car. If it is just straight hardline from the transmission then things get a little different. But to reiterate, not knowing how Honda set it up on the EM1 I can't really give too much information.

As for cooler cores, Earl's are top notch, contact Earl's Australia direct for the best prices. If your on a budget you can go to the wreckers and see what coolers they have lying around. The Toyota Seca and 300zx TT came with engine oil coolers which will be fine to carry transmission oil after you give the inside a bit of a flush with tranny oil.

edit: In the link ek4-guy has, those 's' coolers are what you want to avoid. I know because for a test a found one at a wreckers for cheap, it was twice the size of the 300zx plate and fin cooler and did a worse job at cooling. I agree with buying second hand though, can save a lot of money.

[ek4-guy]

What where the fluid temp diffences between the plate & the pipe type coolers on your test nd were the test conditions identical.

IMO if the pipe type coolers are fine for holden's and ford's 6cyl's that are put under sutch harsh conditions as taxi's. Then the pipe type should be fine for the transmision of a d16y4.

Is the best part always the best option i meen after all in the end it's a honda engine not a 2jz tt engine.

anyway in saying that why would the guy go and buy $150 worth of SECOND HAND cooler when what he really needs is to save that money for a manual when the auto dies. i dont know what a manual gearbox costs for d16y4 but $150 has got be almost half way there

[beeza]

Thanks so much guys.
Superdave have you got a pic of the one your referring to at all.
Here's a couple of pics of my car,EK1 Civic Sedan d16y4:
Rubber hoses,1 in and 1 out:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l287/beeza2/DSCF1737.jpg

Looking from the top:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l287/beeza2/DSCF1738.jpg

[beeza]

anyway in saying that why would the guy go and buy $150 worth of SECOND HAND cooler when what he really needs is to save that money for a manual when the auto dies. i dont know what a manual gearbox costs for d16y4 but $150 has got be almost half way there

Hehehe.Nah,if the tranny dies I'll put another automatic tranny in there.I think a y8 fits and has better gear ratio's :D

Found one-Plate and Fin Cooler:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l287/beeza2/PlateandFincooler.jpg

[ek4-guy]

Staying auto cool if your doing that then it would be worth getting a second hand plate & fin type cooler as SuperDave sugested because it would eventually be used to protect your new transmission.

If your gona stay D-series auto :thumbsup: something you should look into is a higher stall converter and maybe a shift kit.

The stall converter will act like sort of a clutch but it takes up at a predetermined rpm.

Example: If your stall was 2000rpm you could rev the car anything under 2000rpm and the car wont move it will only start to creep if you ease it up near 2000rpm.

The benefit of this is really for drag racing where you would hold your car just below 2000rpm and when you want to go just let go of the brakes and flatten it and it will launch at 2000rpm.

The shift kit is because most cars with auto transmision are built with comfort in mind. So there is a amount of slippage from the bands as the old gear disengages and the new one engages. This creates a softer gear change that you cant feel.

What a shift kit does is takes up the slack making gear change more violent (ei neck snapping when holding it flat) This is also better for the bands as less slippage means less wear.

My auto holden with a shift kit pulls second's and not just a chirp the rear steps out.

I'm not sure if they make these parts off the shelf for hondas but there are guys that will mod your torque converter and improve your shift without buying a converter or a B&m shift kit.

[beeza]

Thanks heaps Darryl! Cheers for explaining everything too.
So to summerise:
Buy a second hand plate and fin type cooler and rubber hose
Mount the unit
Run the hoses to the unit and plug up the nipples in the radiator
That's it right?

Just a couple of questions :) :
Where can I buy 2nd hand plate and fin type cooler?
Should I mount it in front of the Air con OR Radiator?


Is the stall converter an upgraded torque converter?

[ek4-guy]

i'm not sure man but SuperDave seems to know his stuff when it comes to the high end models parts. He should be able to give you the heads up on a few cars that have them as OEM parts.

but a few wreckers to try would be like he mentioned above toyota seca possiblly even supra and nissan 300zx

so maybe try a few toyota and nissan wreckers


edit: yeah man a stall converter is a torque converter with a modified stall point

also i'd mount the cooler over the aircon condensor as that wont block any of the radiators air.

also it wont transfer heat to the radiator either

[beeza]

Sweet.Thanks mate!

[nd55]

> Is the stall converter an upgraded torque converter?

Yes ... and no.

Cheaper high stall converters get their effect by creating more
slippage between the front and rear turbines.

Good ones are redesigned/sized.

High stall converters will affect your fuel economy and are primarily used to improve standing launches (aka drag racing).

Very high stall converters turn your car into a real dog in daily driving requiring
stalling the converter for all starts.

Not sure how effective they'd be in circuit racing.

A cheap and dodgy way of getting a high stall effect is to use a torque converter off a smaller vehicle which has the same input and output splines.
Jazz 1.3 or earlier 1.3litre Hondas perhaps.

Nick.

[beeza]

Good one Nick!
Just one question I need an answer too plz:
Should I mount it in front of the Air con OR Radiator?
Thx

[SuperDave]

What where the fluid temp diffences between the plate & the pipe type coolers on your test nd were the test conditions identical.


Was about 20*C difference with identical conditions of M1 driving. I do very little idling, which would then give the same temp reading. But at the end of the day if the budget only allows for the tube and fin cooler then it is going to be better then nothing. All in all this is a rather constructive thread without people saying buy a manual.

Beeza: Does the hose go to a metal loop or does it have a cooler built into the radiator?

I would recommend getting an OEM cooler from the wreckers instead of new as they have smaller inlet/outlets that match the factory hose better so you don't have to deal with hose size changes. I have a 300zx cooler sitting at home doing nothing if you can't find any or want it. Isn't perfect condition but the majority of the fins are straight.

Make sure you mount it correctly with the inlet/outlet facing up or if you mount it on it's side have the outlet at the top. This is to prevent air from getting trapped in the cooler. I have seen them mounted upside down before. I'm not a fan of mounting to the radiator, but does make it a lot easier to install!

If you mount the cooler in front of the radiators then it will have 100% efficency, but will reduce the efficeny of the radiators. Behind the radiators and the efficiency will be reduced. It is up to you where you want it mounted, but I would go in front.

[nd55]

> Should I mount it in front of the Air con OR Radiator?

It this is directed at me, then it's probably misguided.
I'd guess the air con, cause surely you won't be using that at the track?:)

Superdave seems to have done extensive testing, so would be the auto tranny man.

[Q: Superdave] did you record any temps with the OEM heat exchanger?

I can't help thinking the OEM oil to water heat exchanger is going to be reasonably effective and help with warm ups on cold days too.

[Beeza] might be an idea to pick up and auto box from somewhere and get practice at rebuilding it.
If something goes wrong at the track and its your daily driver, then its gonna be expensive trying to get it repaired pronto.

Besides, they're giving auto boxes away aren't they :):)

I imagine if you can re-hone the clutch pack surfaces, which have been worn out/smooth over the years, it'd go a long way.

Is there an Ozhonda auto write-up coming along?

Nick.

[Limbo]

i've only ever had experience with oil coolers but the concepts the same.
You want the cooler in front of the a/c as 1 its not that big and 2 it won't effect your a/c at all. Your radiator on the other had needs as much cooling as possible. Generally you mount it with a couple of cm distance from the a/c to allow air to come past the a/c also.

[beeza]

Superdave: It has the cooler built into the radiator.Looks like it runs along the bottom of the radiator.Dunno if this pic shows it or not.If another angle is better,I'll get another pic:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l287/beeza2/DSCF1742.jpg

I would snap that oil cooler up in a jiffy.Only thing is I got mass air ducting hoses running all through the front that I will have to move if I go ahead and install it.Let me have a ponder on this one.I'll see if there's an easy place to fit it in where I don't have to do to much redesigning :)

Nick: Yeah I was thinking if/when I tack it,to have a spare Tranny ready to go.Thanks for the advice.

Limbo:Thanks mate.How's the new exhaust? Must be psyched for BOOOOOOOST!!! :)

[SuperDave]

Superdave: It has the cooler built into the radiator.Looks like it runs along the bottom of the radiator.Dunno if this pic shows it or not.If another angle is better,I'll get another pic

I see now. Just block those hose barbs off at the radiator end and run the hose from the tranny to where ever you want the cooler.

As far as operating temperatures for transmission fluid, probably best to contact one of the manufacturers. I'd recommend asking Motul as they gave me the temp range for their oil, which I use anyway, while everyone else didn't get back to me. Run the car hard for a bit and then see what temperature the oil gets to to see if you actually do need the cooler.

[beeza]

Great Idea!
Would I have to tap/drill a hole in the transmission to hook one up?

[SuperDave]

Try and avoid doing that as putting the hole in the case will allow metal into the gearbox. The best way to do it would be to put on inline. But due to the hose size it would restrict too much flow. Two options that come to mind is to measure the transmission case temperature (unsure of just how acurate this will be, but might be close enough to scope it out) or to go to a diesel mechanic and get them to make something up that could sit inline that wont block too much flow. I had something similar setup before I put in some proper sensor points and it had an annoying slow leak and cost like $50 without fittings. I'll see what temp my engine sump gets to and see how that compares to the temp readings I get to see if that gives a close enough measurement for you tomorrow.

[beeza]

Thanks mate.I think I'll first do this then monitor the tempreture to see if I need to install a cooler.It will be good to have a tempreture guage in there for the long term anyways.
Like U said,I'll take it to a mechanic of some sort...I know a good auto electrican :)

[SuperDave]

My engine block read similar to the oil temp, so I guess you could tape a sensor to the tranny case or to one of the hoses for simplicity.

[beeza]

Cool.How about attaching it somehow to the dipstick?? Just a thought...

[SuperDave]

I'm reluctant to say its a good idea (unless you thought of something I didn't) as I'm sure if the sensor came lose it wouldn't help things :lol: Plus that would have to be one big dip stick.

[beeza]

Could it be welded to the dipstick at the top somehow? At the top I mean...
Anybody got any ideas on this?

[beeza]

Do you think you could drill a hole through this plug and put the sensor in there:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l287/beeza2/magOilPlugs.jpg

Skunk2 Magnetic Drain Plug Set includes both engine and transmission plugs to help extend engine life by removing harmful metal particles from your engine oiling system thus prolonging bearing and transmission gear life. Skunk2 Magnetic Drain Plugs are designed to racing specifications and feature lightened bolt heads that are cross-drilled for use with safety wire. Skunk2 Magnetic Drain Plugs are easy to install and can easily be cleaned after each oil change. Fits all Honda, Acura, Mitsubishi, Ford, and GM MANUAL transmissions.
RRP$50, NOW $40 INC SHIPPING + FREE GIFT

[beeza]

The part circled in the pick is the sensor:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l287/beeza2/DSCF1629-1.jpg

[Limbo]

are you trying to put a temp guage in you gbox?

Yeah i have seen a sump plug drilled to fit a sensor before, but i dun think i have seen a temp sensor on an auto gbox before.

[beeza]

Yeah,That sounds promising if it's been done before.It would be easy too cause ya wont need the car.I would just take it somewhere and get them to do it for me because I would want it welded around the top to get a perfect seal.
I figure get the sensor in there first to see if I really need to install a cooler or not.If the gear box goes at least I could use the plug/sensor again :)

[beeza]

Where would you install a Engine oil sensor/sender in the engine? I want to put one of these in too.
The stock tempreture guage is for the coolant temp.

[SuperDave]

For the engine there are two main methods. The first is to have the sensor in the sump plug. The second if to use a sandwich adapter, GReddy make one. It isn't cheap (around $us70), but I'm just showing you what they look like.
http://www.greddy.com/img/PHP/products/jpg/636.jpg

[nd55]

Hey Beeza,

> Where would you install a Engine oil sensor/sender in the engine?

The engine build-up avalanche continues. he, he.


Stock oil pressure sensor is on the back of the block.

1) install a tee fitting so both the OEM pressure sensor and temperature gauge can fit.

2) use a piece of flex line to where the OEM pressure sensor used to be then to a
tee block somewhere (firewall?) which can supply both sensors.


pros/cons.
1) is cheap and simple, but long term reliability is a problem as the engine vibrations
are prone to causing the tee fitting to break due to fatigue. (2) is the recommended solution to this.

2) all the pipe work is an expense and hassle.
If using a temperature sensor, then you will be sensing oil temperature at the end of a long tube. This will not correctly reflect the engine oil temperature unless some oil is allowed to flow through the flex line and continue into the sump.

Sandwich plates.

Two types:

1) Greddy, like Superdave posted, very $$$$.
2) Cheap ebay style. $Oz 20-40.

pros/cons.

1) Expensive.
Oil flows through sandwich plate, oil filter, then taps off to where-ever you want to go. This is a good thing.

2) Oil flows, unfiltered to taps, where you supply unfiltered oil to whatever application you require. Not a good thing for turbo feeds, but OK for temp. sensor.

Both introduce a potential reliability issue, where-by you/your mechanic loosen the oil filter to replace it, and unwittingly loosen the sandwich plate. Unless you make the effort to re-secure the sandwich plate first, when you install the new oil filter, you are not necessarily tightening the sandwich plate and oil leaks result.

If you can install using high temperature loctite, then this avoids this problem. However, you need to clean the threads to get the locatite to stick.

Nick.

PS> I was reading earlier this week of a B&M product, which is a friction modifier additive for transmission fluid. (Never used it) might be worth looking into. lost links, so I can't be helpful.

[beeza]

Cheers Nick!
The sensor in the sump plug still looks the best and acurate.What would you do Nick?

[nd55]

Asking the wrong person, really. I have very little experience with this.


> What would you do Nick

Engine oil temperature sensor?

Not worry about it.

If you're stubborn, and on a budget (who isn't?).

Honda used to install some oil-water heat exchangers under the oil filter (like a sandwich plate) . I think B18C7 (dc2 ITR's) and the like.

Honda doesn't do it anymore, to my knowledge. That's gotta say something.

I think some bikes get them as well. Another potential donor source.

If you're going to spend $, get one of these from the wreckers. Simple and it actually does something. It also helps warm up the oil on cold days.

Also, your coolant temp, will match yor oil temp (kinda) and you can use the original dash temp gauge to work out engine temp. status.

Track only mod or VERY anal daily driver. Remove thermostat.

Make triple sure your thermo fan is working correctly.

This will make your engine take a long time to come up to temperature on cold days.

Just let the motor warm up, before moving off.

Its easy to block off a portion of your radiator (cold days only). I notice lots of trucks blocking off half the radiator during winter.




Auto. transmission temp?

I think the trans cooler or other band aid measures are a for someone looking to carry a heavy load (small boat) occasionally.

Stay with the OEM trans. fluid cooling configuration. Remove the rubber strip on the hood cowling, for some temperature relief (very simple mod) and buy a second hand transmission from wreckers, get used to rebuilding that.

http://www.tciauto.com/Products/SportCompact/

That's what I would do to make my $$$$ go furthest.
Mucking around with sensors and fabing small stuff isn't free and doesn't actually solve anything.

Also, realize that changing transmission isn't a necessarily simple one man job.


Nick.

[nd55]

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0211ht_2002_honda_civic_ex_coupe_jmo_torque_conver ter/index.html

Thought this might be helpful.

Nick.