Heel toe Practice

[I heart the SSS]

Hey people.

I've spent the past few months or so learning how to Double clutch.. so i can throw that with heel toe once i mastered it..

Now i found out that it's useless due to the syncromesh -_- I feel retarded but meh.

Now i've started to learn heel toe. I know their isn't much to tel apart from pratice practice practice but i was just wondering does anyone know of any good drills to practice in order to progress..

I've been doing pretty well, from third to second. Just i crunch a few gears now and again and my box isn't liking it :(

Also second question.. anyone know how much a box would be for a 1.5 twin carb'd EG D15..

Cheers guys

Justin

[teh_mechanic]

Also second question.. anyone know how much a box would be for a 1.5 twin carb'd EG D15..

cheap cheap if your in brisbane,ive got one in my workshop,all gears shift fine,clutch is fine too if you want that,do you need one?

[I heart the SSS]

Na mate sydney here.

And at the rate im going my box will shit it pants within a few weeks so yeah.

[teh_mechanic]

well the offers there if you feel like paying for shipping.

as for the heel and toe is just a matter of doing it until you are comfortable at judging the right amount of throttle blip to give match your revs to your cars travelling speed

[I heart the SSS]

mmhm that's true

Thanks for that man.

I hope my box holds out hey.

[m0nty ITR]

Just start off slowly and progressively speed up as you become more comfortable. Keep it on the track too. I've seen a video of a guy that was trying to be clever and heel toe braking. His foot came off the brake pedal and he rear ended the car in front. Just relax when doing it and try not to downshift to early.

It's not uber important to be able to do. You can still get by even on the track without heel toe braking.

[I heart the SSS]

Truth.

I might be jumping the gun a bit here.. I should wait a while and settle in my car before learning heel toe.

Thanks for the input. I practice around my house, its a brand new estate and on our side we are the only folks living here so i have ample roads that are not used at all :) far away from police too lol.

[d15z1SUX]

the trick is braking smoothly while blipping the throttle i reckon.

[dudeling7]

yeh at first i would push too hard on the brakes, but you just need to practice and practice man.

also i think seating position also makes a big difference, you need to feel comfortable and your feet should be able to get into position comfortably.

start getting rev matching down first and then when you get a feel of how much you need to rev match for each speed you are going and each gear your heel toe will get smoother.

[T-onedc2]

It was a bit awkward at first then after practise one day it all came naturally, I even do it out of habit in my work van lol

[JDM.Power]

yeah, i normally do it..when i come to a roundabout.
never ever do it while taking corners or driving on a straight public road.

shouldnt even be doing it in the first place on public road.
but yeah practice makes perfect, im just used to it nows..i always do it when i reach a roundabout with no cars around.

best to keep it for track tho!

[d15z1SUX]

lol at heel and toe in van. i would do that too if my work car was manual. yeh you don't want to be heel and toeing on a straight road like fnf haha.

[andiiso]

i agree with above, practice normal rev matching downgearing first with the heel toe, so u get the hang of how much throttle u need to blip etc, then u gotta practice the awkward (to some ppl) position ur foot has to go in (again depends on the seating position aswell). and then its all the timing of when to do it bfore corner etc, easy say harder to do tho lolz

[SuperDave]

Your footwear plays a big role in how easy it is to do too. I find that black leather dress shoes, runners and skate shoes are the best for learning since they have a nice big block on the heel to reach the throttle easier while keeping plenty of shoe area on the brake pedel. If you haven't tried bare foot yet you can always give that a go and see how it feels. Thats how I learnt it, but depends on how flexible your ankle is. You can build some strength/finese by practicing with some tennis balls while sitting down.

[andiiso]

i dun barely move my foot after doing it for a while, i just brake wid like the big bit of my foot under my big toe and then the side of my foot can hit the throttle so not exactly a "heel" in my terms lolz, its like me just puttin my foot right between the 2 pedals and so easier to get to both.

[94dc2tegz]

yeah, i normally do it..when i come to a roundabout.
never ever do it while taking corners or driving on a straight public road.

shouldnt even be doing it in the first place on public road.
but yeah practice makes perfect, im just used to it nows..i always do it when i reach a roundabout with no cars around.

best to keep it for track tho!

I don't understand why one shouldn't be doing this on a public road?
It's not a 'race only' move. It's actually quite good to use and better for your gears in the long term once done properly. Obviously there are times when u need it and times when u don't but I certainly wouldn't go as far to say that one shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

If u've relatively mastered this then it shouldn't be a problem in any situation cuz obviously the emphasis is on the breaking. if u can't blimp in time/change ur mind or sudden traffic condition change it's ur breaking that comes first and u can ignore the blimp. once u can do this then u can work on correct amount of revs required for different speeds.

Oh and note on wearing heeled shoes (male dress shoes) - it's just a personal opinion but i don't think it'd be good to learn with these shoes. the heel tends to get stuck on the pedal if ur ankle isn't as flexible yet so stick with flat shoes first b4 u start to mix it up.

[Benson]

Double Clutch is very bad on the gearbox and clutch!! Dont do it.

On the other hand, heel-toe can be mastered with alot of practice. Do it in a quiet place where is no cars around. once you feel more confident then yeh you get the rest.

I do heel-toe all the time on public road, jsut a natural instinct i guess. Its a part of my driving now. LOL You can do it so it doesnt draw attention, like not reving it to high or heel-toe at low revs.

[I heart the SSS]

Thanks for all your help, its all taken into account.

As I said I do it on quiet roads for now.. im starting to get the hang of it more day by day!

I've been trying barefoot lately just to see how it fairs (was difficult at the start because I was wearing skate shoes when i first attempted it)

But when i threw shoes back on it was a tonne easier.

Like everyone says, practice makes perfect hey. :)

[RICER23Q]

Double Clutch is very bad on the gearbox and clutch!! Dont do it.


You're ****ing kidding me, right?

[Benson]

no im not kidding you. Go do it all the time and dont go crying if you smash something.

** My understanding of double clutching is foot on the gas, and qucikly clutch in and out to bring up the revs.

[Limbo]

double clutching is just original form of heel-toe.
Double clutching is used more with truckies as that is what they match revs

The heel-toe is only different that you use both brake and accelerator at same time.

Not sure if i'm clear but have a read of the more technical explaintion if your not sure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_declutch

P.S the 'no no' i think is called kicking the clutch. It craps up the clutch i agree.

[Zilli]

double clutching was used when gearboxes didnt have a synchromesh, so in effect it is not only bringing the engine up to speed but by engaging the clutch in neutral when you blip the throttle, you are bringing the gearbox and the motor up to the same speed, which will help gears engage when you clutch back in...

i dont see how it could be damaging to your gearbox but i could be wrong, if anyhting you are giving the synchros less work to do

[Research]

but by engaging the clutch in neutral when you blip the throttle

sry to ask noob question here.. but ppl keep sayin "blip" the throttle? wat does blip means?? :confused:

n the order to do a heel-toe is
1. brake
2. clutch + gear to neutral
3. rev
4. clutch + downgear
5. accelerate out??

is tat the rite order?? lol.. coz i tried to do it last time n prhaps i rev too high, so the car jump a bit farther than i xpcted lol.. do we actually have to rev very high??

[Zilli]

Blipping this throttle is the process of giving it a bit of gas, same as your step 3 above

[iced]

i cant drive without heel and toeing too.
it becomes natural and not doing it feels just weird.

practice makes perfect.
remember to wear thin soled shoes for best feeling :)

[Research]

Blipping this throttle is the process of giving it a bit of gas, same as your step 3 above

oo.. ic2.. hehehehe..
thx a lot for the info.. :D

[krogoth]

sry to ask noob question here.. but ppl keep sayin "blip" the throttle? wat does blip means?? :confused:

n the order to do a heel-toe is
1. brake
2. clutch + gear to neutral
3. rev
4. clutch + downgear
5. accelerate out??

is tat the rite order?? lol.. coz i tried to do it last time n prhaps i rev too high, so the car jump a bit farther than i xpcted lol.. do we actually have to rev very high??

no, u dont need to double clutch at all

skip the whole double clutching part

and the way u say to do it, it would take 5 seconds to change gears

1. brake
2. press and hold clutch
3. move from 3rd into second, wile holding clutch
4. tap accelerator up to required engine RPMz wile still holding clutch wen gear 2 is selected
5. stop accelerating, release clutch all the way quickly, and then accelerate again

also, IMO, double clutching doesnt do any damage at all

IMO, heel-toe can reduce wear on synchros, as they are doing less work

and therz absolutley no problem using heel-toe in the road, i do all the time, in every manual car i drive

it comes naturally to me, and makes for a much smoother and controlled drive

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

double clutching was used when gearboxes didnt have a synchromesh, so in effect it is not only bringing the engine up to speed but by engaging the clutch in neutral when you blip the throttle, you are bringing the gearbox and the motor up to the same speed, which will help gears engage when you clutch back in...

i dont see how it could be damaging to your gearbox but i could be wrong, if anyhting you are giving the synchros less work to do

in more modern cars double clutching is useless due to the synchromesh (as zilli stated)

and yeah clutch kicking that kills your clutch/gear box :p

[RICER23Q]

It is not useless on any synchro box. Your average punter will not do it on the street, but on the racetrack it's a completely different matter...

[Limbo]

4. tap accelerator up to required engine RPMz wile still holding clutch wen gear 2 is selected
5. stop accelerating, release clutch all the way quickly, and then accelerate again

that pretty much is double clutching

[krogoth]

i thought he was saying in his instructions

press clutch, move from gear 3 to neutral, release clutch

accelarate

then press clutch again, move from neutral to gear 2, then release clutch

[RICER23Q]

The n00bness amongst you all is hurting my brain...

Steps on double clutching...

UPSHIFTING:

1. Clutch in
2. Put selector into neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Clutch in
5. Put selector into desired gear
6. Clutch out

DOWNSHIFTING

1. Clutch in
2. Put selector in neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Blip throttle to match engine and road speed. Normally only around 500rpm when going back one gear, multiply depending on how many gears you go back.
5. Clutch in
6. Select pre-designated gear
7. Clutch out

I can't make it anymore detailed than that. No it doesn't take time what-so-ever when you get the hang of it, you can make it as quick as a synchro change... especially with a dog box :P

[xntrik]

Oh man I feel sorry for your clutch&gearbox trying to practice this.

[Limbo]

watch some Best Motoring track racing and they will show you how its done.
if not download a couple of episodes of Initial D ;P

[94dc2tegz]

no im not kidding you. Go do it all the time and dont go crying if you smash something.

** My understanding of double clutching is foot on the gas, and qucikly clutch in and out to bring up the revs.

i don't see anything too wrong with using a double clutch maneuver say from 4th to 3rd simply to speed up a little? minimum and correct rev matching for a stronger acceleration not a 'kick' and dumping onto my clutch.

on the other hand i definitely see whats wrong with what I used to do with my dad's car lol

old starlet 97' model - bare basics, electric nothing. no tacho. best kinda car to learn in.

anywho, cuz that beast was packing i duno.. 55kW of pure sex i would get really owned on straights so i used to double clutch from 4th to 2nd at 60km/h for best results for a kick every so often. and yea i know i was screwing the car and we eventually had to get a new clutch. but yea it was more for me to feel better about driving a starlet.... awesome days.

[SHIFTY]

The n00bness amongst you all is hurting my brain...

Steps on double clutching...

UPSHIFTING:

1. Clutch in
2. Put selector into neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Clutch in
5. Put selector into desired gear
6. Clutch out

DOWNSHIFTING

1. Clutch in
2. Put selector in neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Blip throttle to match engine and road speed. Normally only around 500rpm when going back one gear, multiply depending on how many gears you go back.
5. Clutch in
6. Select pre-designated gear
7. Clutch out

I can't make it anymore detailed than that. No it doesn't take time what-so-ever when you get the hang of it, you can make it as quick as a synchro change... especially with a dog box :P

the following way is correct if any1 thinks otherwise u don't know shit... LOL

[Research]

wow.. i dun exactly mean to say double clutching on the "instructions", i juz confirmin on the orders of doing heel-toe tat i know :D

but now i can rest assured tat orders r correct hehe..
i'll experiment by holdin the clutch when i wanna downgear next time haha.. c which 1 feels more comfy ;)

[I heart the SSS]

Can I ask, What's the purpose of Dc Upshifting? I mean isn't it pointless

[Killa From Manila]

Can I ask, What's the purpose of Dc Upshifting? I mean isn't it pointless

u need to double clutch on some dog boxes coz they got no synchros

[Munted]

I looked at that Double clutch/double declutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_clutch) article on wikipedia and that's how I've what I've understood double clutching to mean. Also that first external link to Footbox Small.wmv looked familiar, I realised it was one of the first things I looked at when learning to heal toe. Have a look at that video (http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv) and tell me double clutch heal toe braking is slow.

Double clutching is better for your synchros, read http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/f71/shifting-part-2-heel-toe-7990/
An extract:

Wrong. Declutching connects the engine crankshaft to the layshaft, so when you blip the gas with the clutch out in neutral, instead of just spinning up the flywheel, you are now spinning up the flywheel, clutch, layshaft w/gears and all the gears on the pinion shaft. Now when you go to select a lower gear, the pinion shaft speed and the pinion gear speed are much more closely matched and your synchros need to do less work to engage the collar to the gear.

See the following diagrams and read the bullets...

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission3.htm

Gary explains the process here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15996291&postcount=60
I found that incredibly useful explained as a parallel process, thinking of it as 7/9 step list actually makes it more complicated to me. Being from a computer science background in my own mind I thought of it bunch of different threads beginning at staggered intervals and taking different amounts of time to complete.

https://computing.llnl.gov/tutorials/parallel_comp/images/load_bal1.gif

Couldn't find a better diagram but you get the point. A heal toe downshift takes like a second or so, getting your head around 7-9 different steps that you need to complete in a second is pretty daunting, breaking it up into a map made more sense to me and of course with practice you don't have to think about it any more.

Finally here's an FAQ on NASIOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=804223), I guess if you drive a WRX looking after you gearbox is that much more important because AWD launches are so hard on it! In short double clutching isn't necessary with modern gearboxes because the syncros do the work, nevertheless it does reduce wear and tear on them and when done correctly doesn't take much longer to do than normal rev matching. Oh and for all that, I never double clutch when I heal and toe although I do sometimes when just rev matching, it's too much work to double clutch when braking, what do I look like, a quad core CPU with hydraulic legs!!!!? :P

[chingaling]

Double Clutch is very bad on the gearbox and clutch!! Dont do it.

On the other hand, heel-toe can be mastered with alot of practice. Do it in a quiet place where is no cars around. once you feel more confident then yeh you get the rest.

I do heel-toe all the time on public road, jsut a natural instinct i guess. Its a part of my driving now. LOL You can do it so it doesnt draw attention, like not reving it to high or heel-toe at low revs.

lol heel toe dwon gear to the vtec kick in.. is like quiet to LOUD sounds funny

[I heart the SSS]

Amazing post.

Cheers for that man.

[BlitZ]

The n00bness amongst you all is hurting my brain...

Steps on double clutching...

UPSHIFTING:

1. Clutch in
2. Put selector into neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Clutch in
5. Put selector into desired gear
6. Clutch out

DOWNSHIFTING

1. Clutch in
2. Put selector in neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Blip throttle to match engine and road speed. Normally only around 500rpm when going back one gear, multiply depending on how many gears you go back.
5. Clutch in
6. Select pre-designated gear
7. Clutch out

I can't make it anymore detailed than that. No it doesn't take time what-so-ever when you get the hang of it, you can make it as quick as a synchro change... especially with a dog box :P

only the above is correct regaridn double clutch

half these fags dont know shit...
with modern cars, you dont double clutch..

Double clutching is really used when u have a FARKED up gbox or on a truck..

[krogoth]

thank god, finally a bit more sense, som1 finally points up that in our hondaz, with good gear boxes, U DONT NEED TO DOUBLE CLUTCH

[BlitZ]

I think 80% of people think double clutch is the same as dabbing clutch (while in gear and on throttle)...

too much too furious... ahah

[krogoth]

1. brake
2. press and hold clutch
3. move from 3rd into second, wile holding clutch
4. tap accelerator up to required engine RPMz wile still holding clutch wen gear 2 is selected
5. stop accelerating, release clutch all the way quickly, and then accelerate again

this is how i heel-toe

is that how u do it blitz, i dont do track work, but yeh i assume it wont be any different

[BlitZ]

^^ yeah whilst still braking throughout

[krogoth]

yep, absolutley

[aaronng]

Yeah, for upshifting, you don't need to double clutch at all. Even when downshifting, I only rev match. The only time when I doubleclutch is when downshifting from 6th to 2nd/3rd (skipping 4th and 5th) or when I want to get into 1st gear when the car is moving.

[Munted]

thank god, finally a bit more sense, som1 finally points up that in our hondaz, with good gear boxes, U DONT NEED TO DOUBLE CLUTCH

Who here said you need to double clutch? I didn't read that anywhere. There's nothing special about Honda gearboxes, you don't need to double clutch on any synchromesh gearbox.


I think 80% of people think double clutch is the same as dabbing clutch (while in gear and on throttle)...

too much too furious... ahah
Where is this figure from? After Benson's comment I as far as I can tell everyone's understanding of double clutching is the same.

Double clutching on downshifts is not necessary on a modern synchromesh gearbox it's just better for your synchros, simple as that.

Why are we even talking about this? It's the same as say warming up your car, as long as you're sensible and don't rev the crap out of your car when it's cold, you don't need to warm up your engine. My old car has done over 400 000 kays and is still going strong and it was never warmed up but it was well treated. You don't need to double clutch and your gearbox could easily last as long, provided you look after it, so don't clutchless shift or downshift by punching the clutch in and out.

However Honda don't make frictionless non contact gearboxes. Synchros suffer from wear and tear and double clutching reduces this wear and tear. Do a search for "synchro" on this forum, it's hardly uncommon for synchros to wear out and it's generally pretty expensive to fix. That's why people double clutch, for the same reason people do an oil change twice as often as the manufacturer recommend, it may not be necessary but you know it's better for the car. If you're using $30 a bottle oil, why not use better $50 oil, or $100 oil? Everyone draws a line somewhere and for a lot of people double clutching is going too far.

I've already stated that I double clutch infrequently (situationally like aaronng I guess) and I'd say the vast majority of people never do and have never had problems with the synchros. But for anyone reading this shouldn't have to suffer through people's inability to think outside their own set ways. Have a look at that howstuffworks link again, this isn't a subjective question, double clutching means less wear on your synchros, it's how a gearbox works. That's why people double clutch, not because they've been watching too much Fast and the Furious :/ I hope I haven't pissed anyone off who's reading this, this is just not a topic worth getting worked up over! That said I've had better debates and while I didn't really enjoy being called a fag, (I presume that was directed at me) the OP seemed to appreciate me going to some effort to dig up some links and explain things so eh.

[nick_sixx]

buy a set of pedals that have the extra little side bit on the accelerator. its really not that hard anyways...

[nick_sixx]

haha btw every time i downshift, i mean EVERY time (pulling up to the traffic lights/my driveway etc) i do heel toe, so yeah just do it heaps and youll get it

[rawr]

haha you must look like a hero everytime you pull up to the lights...

WOOOOM.... WOOOOOM.

oh btw i do it too! lmao its smoother and sounds fully sik uleh

[nick_sixx]

haha it makes me feel big :) especially with my 1.6 sohc engine :)

[krogoth]

rev match downgearing approaching traffic lights with an FPV, lol

that would be sick

[TECBOY]

1st learn and feel how much to push the throttle to match gears
once that is mastered then faze in the braking