Thoughts on the Type R

[wynode]

Somone I know on another forum posted the following a LONG time ago. I though it was a pretty nice 'mini-review' so I thought i'd post it up.


Originally posted by spectral
Well, I've had the car for a nearly a week now, and some people here asked me to post my thoughts on it.

Firstly, the engine is simply awesome. It drives like a normal Civic around town with excellent fuel economy and decent torque. As you would expect, its a very free revving engine so gear change points in normal driving are around the 4000rpm mark. The Jekyll and Hyde nature of the engine is much more accessible in flowing twisty corners rather than city style streets and traffic. Main problem is that for the VTEC to alter the lift, you have to be doing 6000rpm, which in second, is around 80kmh which is getting a bit quick in a normal traffic situation. You find yourself hard on the brakes in no time because you go from that 6000rpm to 8500rpm in around a second :) (which is around 100kmh).

I've owned a SR20DET 180SX and the Type R is quicker if its in its powerband. The combination of 141kw and 1020kg is very nice. If you are not careful thou, that Nissan will beat you because you will have to change down to 2nd (or 3rd on the highway) to put the VTEC in.

Someone asked me if the VTEC felt like really bad turbo lag. Its not. The engine response is far better than any turbo I've ever driven.. but only if its in its powerband. If you were to just put your foot down in 3rd@60kmh, you would be left behind. You have to change your perception on how to drive a car. Jumping from a turbo car into the TypeR is weird. Turbos are very easy to drive, just stamp the pedal to the metal and off it goes. In a VTEC car you have to keep an eye on your speed and instantly know what gear to change into make the VTEC cut in. So in that respect, it requires a lot of driver skill to drive fast. This is what I'm enjoying the most in the car. Its a real challenge. The TypeR has the potential to beat a 200SX soundly, but it will require a great driver to do so.

The handling is just magic, I've never driven a FWD car with such an excellent turn in. This car will NOT understeer. Cornering quickly at 80kmh and hitting a small bump, you can feel the back starting to come around, but a snatch of opposite lock fixes that really quick. The key is never lifting off the throttle, if you do, you will spin. If this doesn't intimdate you, then the car will reward you with probably the best FWD chassis in the world.

So the negative points. Firstly, this is no luxury car. To shed weight, the windscreen is thinner glass and all soundproofing is removed. You hear every gearchange and every rock/pebble that is flicked up into the wheel wheels. The positive side of this is that you get to hear the scream of the engine at 8500rpm. All passengers I've had in the car that thought the engine sounded fantastic. Another negative is the suspension is pretty stiff, so the ride can be harsh sometimes depending on surface. But this is something I'm prepared to live with in exchange for the handling.

But in summary, its a fantastic car that will reward a good driver, but may disappoint a less enthustastic one. If you don't let that engine rev, then you are just driving another nice looking Japanese coupe. Abeit one with top notch handling.

[XXpl0Sive]

Respect to Type-R's.
I find it more satisfying to drive than a stock 200sx any day.

[Da1nONLY]

nice review!!
i strongly agree with him.
but this "6000rpm to 8500rpm in around a second (which is around 100kmh)."
hmmmz.... mine only goes up to 83kmh???
its like 1st - 60Km shift to 2nd revs stays at 7000rpm, takes 1 sec to go up to 83Km @ 8400rpm. and then 3rd from 83Km to 130. revs drops to 6200rpm from 2nd to 3rd.

[EG_2_TEG]

Respect to Type-R's.
I find it more satisfying to drive than a stock 200sx any day.
man, when are ya gonna mod it??
front mount, exhaust, boost controller, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump :D

went in my friends S14 on sunday, that thing does 210km/h in 4th gear! its got 275hp at the wheels :)

http://www.antilag.com/events/cruise_04/IMG_0515.JPG
http://www.antilag.com/events/cruise_04/IMG_0538.JPG

and sorry about the OT reply

[VTEChnique]

hmmmz.... mine only goes up to 83kmh???
its like 1st - 60Km shift to 2nd revs stays at 7000rpm, takes 1 sec to go up to 83Km @ 8400rpm. and then 3rd from 83Km to 130. revs drops to 6200rpm from 2nd to 3rd.

in 2nd gear ?? even my VTi (SOHC VTEC) does just on 90 Km/Hr at redline in 2nd gear.. WTF ??

[GotPho]

Short ratio gears

[type one]

yeah when the car was stock (DC2R) it hit 90 in 1st?? hmmm maybe you haven't unleashed your cars true potential yet - revs are there to be used.

[felixR]

it's a great car :D

we've been with each other for more than a year.. and she still puts a smile on my face :)

that sounded a bit cheezy :o

[DC2.R]

Great review!!!! I agree at times its a bit harsh and at times annoying to drive. Thats only in traffic though and city driving. Take it outta the city and unleash it and you will be rewarded. Ive had mine now for almost a year and love it!!! Went up to Sky High last night and gave it a great run up and down the mountain, it really is a drivers car as you need to concentrate on every move you make.

[ryousuke]

nice write up...
anyone know any ITR buyers guide floatin around??

[civicboy]

Yes, Typa-R'ez :D r built for excitement (road/circuit) :)
i drove my freind's stock dc5r & it felt dat it was stable & more in controll - but i wasnt pushin' his car 2 da limit coz it aint mine hehehe

[supernatural]

btw...ive talked to a couple of my mates about this...and this is wat one of them reckons...


I read the post and what he is talking about when he is talking bout it being harder to shift a VTEC is when your already rolling. Im not too sure but I get the impression that the true meaning behind what he was saying is not that a more skilled driver to drive a VTEC but a driver of a VTEC car has to work harder to get the VTEC to the same level as a turbo car, especially in a rolling start.
Moreover, its not valid to compare a 180sx which is outdated relative to a dc2r because the technology made for the overall performance of the dc2r will definetely be greater than the technology when the 180sx(early 1990's) is made. Also, the type R is tuned with racing technology (you could say track set up) whereas the 180sx its mildly tuned.
I've had an experience when we were at the Runs (Drag races) where I was driving Adam's civic coupe and I raced an s15. It was pretty shocking cos I actually beat the s15 over 3 gears and he really gave it. I was able to do that with no skill, so in a way it shows that you don't need real skill to drive a VTEC its just a matter of shifting cleanly and at the right time. I know Adam's car has not the same performance as a dc2r/dc5r but ive driven that and experienced the power of the VTEC and i've driven a number of turbo cars (r33,r32, 180sx to name a few) and its a bit harder than just hammering down the pedal and shiftng in a turbo car to get performance out of it, timing of shifting is just as important in a turbo car as it is in a VTEC. The turbo and VTEC pretty much do around the same thing, they use different means of powergain (One uses aggressive cams whereas the other uses forced induction). Also with a turbo you dont just shift at any stage, u shift just like in a VTEC at redline, so just as in a honda in a turbo u are also looking at RPM alot to make sure u shift right before red line.
Im no expert with cars but this is what i think.........

so wat do u guys reckon? he has some good points there...

[wynode]

Im no expert with cars but this is what i think.........

I think that sums it up.

The person who wrote that mini review at the top has owned both cars and it wasn't a turbo vs NA arguement / debate.

He was merely pointing out that for the ITR to make any decent power you have to be a competent driver and know which gear to drop into in order to benefit from VTEC. Yes driving in a straight line is easy, but come street / track racing, you have to know how to drive the car in order to take full advantage of its 141kW of power. That's just one thing. Other things like lift off oversteer also come into it, so it is pretty much a drivers car.

[supernatural]

wat hes saying is tat driving a VTEC is as hard or as easy as driving a turbo...i would like to know if it is too... cos hes saying tat u push it to the limit when driving a vtec...changing it before the redline and the same goes for turbo...and its quite logical as well...if u were to drive a vtec or a turbo...wouldnt u push it right before the redline before changing the gear?? not sure but yeah...

i came here to find out some answer from you honda experts... :D

[Da1nONLY]

depends on the car..
i mean if yuor pushing it before redline....say for e.g your car redlines at 7200rpm and its not making any power after 7000rpm....then whats the point? you'll lose time....push it to 7000rpm thats where peak power ends and you'll end up having a better time.

keep in mind.... if you want top speed...sure redline it....
if you want acceleration... change gears at peak power....

[supernatural]

true...didnt thought of that...thx mate...

[Javed]

Yep when u start losing torque doesn't mean its necessarily the redline.

[wynode]

Not exactly.

Funny you chose the EG as an example......my EG makes max power at around 6,800rpm, but from there all the way to the 7,200 cut out it maintains that max power. So it IS worth shifting at 7,200 becasue i'll drop higher into my powerband on the next up shift.

Anyways lets keep it on track yeah.

I know this because i've seen the dyno plot

[Da1nONLY]

=)
depends on the car....
in my R now i shift at 8.4 all the time when im racing....
but in my rolla before..even though it redlines at 6.2.....
i shift at 6..because its slower at 6.2 =)...
and i get better 0-100 times =)

[supernatural]

so tat would make driving vtec and turbo car the same?? o_O ?

[ginganggooly]

go drive an sr20det sss and then drive a type-r. as much as i love the way the b-series vtecs develop power, it can't match the no-fuss, wafty mid-range grunt of the turbo mill.

fwiw, both cars have very similar power outputs, it's just the way they develop their power that makes them so different. the type-r is really frantic, whereas the sss was nice and easy. in terms of driveability, there is no contest.

fun, on the other hand, is another issue entirely :)

[supernatural]

im talking about the amount of skills required to drive the vtec/turbo cars...which one would require more skills or they are about the same?

[wynode]

im talking about the amount of skills required to drive the vtec/turbo cars...which one would require more skills or they are about the same?
Re-read the last paragraph of the first post.

[supernatural]

ahhh kk....cheers wynode... ;)

[enoch]

not just the type r...the GSi has great handling too

[wynode]

not just the type r...the GSi has great handling too

You can't compare the two cars.....they are setup very differently.

[Da1nONLY]

yes..wynode is right =)
test drive a dc2r and then compare it to a GSi =P
the dc2r will hug the road around a corner... =)

[ginganggooly]

invest a bit in suspension mods and a gsi will be a step up from the type-r in terms of turn in and adjustability ;)

[vtir22]

what if you also added some suspension mods to the dc2r? :D

[ginganggooly]

what if you also added some suspension mods to the dc2r? :D

:wave: then it would be equal to the gsi...

[Javed]

lol i own a gsi and cant even agree with that statement, lol.

[monstaR]

Used to own an fd3s before and did not get as much satisfaction out of it compared to my present dc2r.......... :thumbsup:

[vtir22]

:wave: then it would be equal to the gsi...

haha

[ginganggooly]

lol i own a gsi and cant even agree with that statement, lol.

seriously though- the platform is the same and the chassis is almost identical. compensate for the maginally flimsier rear subframe with some bracing and it would be as torsionally stiff, if not stiffer than the type-r. couple that to the same suspension gear and hey-presto, a b18b type-r.

[redliner]

yes..wynode is right =)
test drive a dc2r and then compare it to a GSi =P
the dc2r will hug the road around a corner... =)

yes i seen him done dat once ;)
n i was told he did it agen :D
you know what i mean keith :p

[mugsee]

seriously though- the platform is the same and the chassis is almost identical. compensate for the maginally flimsier rear subframe with some bracing and it would be as torsionally stiff, if not stiffer than the type-r. couple that to the same suspension gear and hey-presto, a b18b type-r.

don't forget that the type R has been stripped of weight as well, plus it has a lucy in the sky of diamonds.

[ginganggooly]

i'm not 100% on aus spec cars as i've read several different kerb weights for different dc2 models, but there is 27lbs in it between the US gsr (vtir) and type-r. i'd bet you could blame the stupid-arse sunroof for a good portion of that too. so assuming the case is the same in australia, a gsi sans sunroof must be awfully close to the itr in terms of kerb weight.
and fwiw -> the lsd is the main reason i only mentioned turn in and adjustability in my original post.

[pornstar]

ithgought it was 100kg difference...

[ginganggooly]

motor and wheels both said 27kg in their fist tests of the itr. never seen anything close to 100kg.

[wynode]

DC2R is 1048 if I remember correctly. How heavy is the GSi (too lazy to check sticky)

[Speeder]

from one source it says 1087kg for the dc2r, so with the aircon, say just under 1100kg?

[wynode]

Where did you get that figure from?

[Speeder]

car buyers guide, its a 2000 edition :p

[enoch]

well u know how u said type r over steers instead of understeering? it happens with GSi as well..i dont know much on the technical side of things, but i think i know oversteer when it happens to me :S

[ginganggooly]

redbook rate the itr as 1080-something and the gsi as 1140-something. until now, that was the largest difference in weight i'd heard.
as i said earlier, australian figures seem to be all over the place. how much weight is there in a bit of glass, sound deadening and some other things?

one of the blokes over on honda-tech removed all his sound insulation in his ls/gsr and weighed it at like 5lbs, somewhere around as insignificant as that. it certainly didn't add up to the crazy ammount some people seem to think it does.

i think the 1048 figure could be a jap spec car, sans aircon and airbag among other things...

anyway, it's a problem easily solved, who has a set of corner scales? ;)

[Setanta]

in 2nd gear ?? even my VTi (SOHC VTEC) does just on 90 Km/Hr at redline in 2nd gear.. WTF ??

My EF9 has second run out to 100 km/h. It's just the ratios.

[wynode]

That's not all of it though, look at things like lighter rims (which the ITR has) and you can shave off around 2-3Kgs per rim (not arguing against the 100Kg difference, just saying that even 20Kgs will make a difference)

[Da1nONLY]

yes i seen him done dat once ;)
n i was told he did it agen :D
you know what i mean keith :p


haha whateva Kheng...
i was being stupid then =P
pffft...

[ginganggooly]

i don't doubt that it makes a difference, i'm more or less questioning the significance of the difference... it's not just the mass, but the location of the mass and it's effect on the centre of gravity.
a fat driver, for example, would have a larger impact on handling than sound insulation and carpets (which are relatively low to the ground).

regardless, i don't really feel that a few kg's is really worth worrying about in cars that weigh 1000kg plus; unless you are seriously involved in motorsport, a difference of say, 30kg isn't going to get you much more than bragging rights.

[wynode]

Bahhh.........you just hate ITRs :D

[wynode]

or their owners ;)

[Speeder]

30kg is a weight of a kid! that is something ;) but i know what you mean though, i mean we probably couldnt tell any difference

[wynode]

I shed around 12Kgs at the wheels and noticed a difference driving around town under 4K rpm.
Installed headers and felt SFA difference.

[Speeder]

well if your wheels are lighter, then in steering you could feel quicker response through the steering wheel????but if the body sheds weight, say 20kg, i probably couldnt tell any difference.

[ginganggooly]

Bahhh.........you just hate ITRs :D

this is the house of love.
seriously... i love the car, just hate the way everyone else loves it. :o

[nipnip]

after owning an R for less than two weeks, i totally agree with the first post. great car and a fun race car feel that you cannot get from another sports car

what i love most is the handling and feedback from the car. the suspension set up is great from factory and the traction is amazing, big difference from my mates s14 and wrx.

i havn't really given the vtec its much needed revs, brother and his friends from "skylines nsw" forum are telling me to take it easy so i don't become a P plate write off warrior. but im still enjoying the car everyday :D

[LAGOOT]

posting for a friend:
" hi guys i just purchased an integra type R 2000 model. If i rev past the redline is this bad in any way? I revved to about 8500 - 8900rom. Is this going to be bad for my car in anyway? I just wanted to know is there consequences with revving past redline?"
Cheers guys and gals.

[wynode]

posting for a friend:
" hi guys i just purchased an integra type R 2000 model. If i rev past the redline is this bad in any way? I revved to about 8500 - 8900rom. Is this going to be bad for my car in anyway? I just wanted to know is there consequences with revving past redline?"
Cheers guys and gals.
Might want to make a new post for that.

[midnightdood]

Just out of curiocity, are you refering to a reduction of 12kgs from wheels alone ? And if so - what sorta wheels would you be refering to ?

Thanks.


I shed around 12Kgs at the wheels and noticed a difference driving around town under 4K rpm.
Installed headers and felt SFA difference.

[JasonGilholme]

HOLY OLD THREAD MAN!!!! This is almost 5 years old!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[midnightdood]

*sorry*

[JasonGilholme]

lol just jokin man. Have a search around. theres good information on weight reduction on this site, as well as information regarding wheel weights and sprung/unsprung weight.

They're all the things you should be looking into when following up something like that.

[1900-hustler]

LOL - least he was searching though

[JasonGilholme]

exactly. :thumbsup: