Power expectations

[redinteg]

Hey,
I am fitting toda spec B cams and toda valve springs to my b16a2 in the next 2 weeks and was wondering what sort of power i can expect.
It will be tuned with a Emanage blue with the extra ignition harness
I'm realy hoping for 120kw @ wheels
The car currently has cheapo 4-1 header, 2.5" exhaust with a highflow cat and a cai down into the guard with a k/n pod on the end.
Is 120kw at the wheels a little ambitious for this kind of setup?
Also at what rpm do people usualy find the spec b's can make power too?

Cheers guys

ill post a dyno results when its all done.

[dsp26]

dyno's are a bit iffy to compare but i'd say ~110wkw with good tune on the e-manage.

You may want to get flat faced valves and/or a thinner head gasket in addition to make up for dynamic compression ratio lost due to higher Toda B duration.

With your current setup, looks like your powers gonna be mainly from higher mid-range onwards coz of ur exhaust/intake setup...

I've got pretty much the same setup but going with Skunk2 Stage 2s + Springs/retainers/flat valves + thinner gasket (thickness yet to be calculated) to aim for STATIC CR of around 11.5:1 + Cam gears to have my peak tuned to arrive earlier in the rpm range...

***EDIT***
This is a good read Cam Guide Version 2 Update. - ClubSi ("http://forums.clubsi.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/32363/fpart/1"/)

[Benson]

emanage? hmmm i would go for a hondata or crome ecu. More importantly who is tuning the car?

Yes 120 is very wishful thinking. i agree with dsp26 110kw would be the figure you'll be looking at. Why spec B cams? ITR cams work well with B16a's set-up. We are currently making 113kw with our set-up.

I would only use spec B cams if it has abit more compression and on a 1.8l. You'll find it abit laggy down low and you'll need to rev its **** of to make power.

[dsp26]

emanage? hmmm i would go for a hondata or crome ecu. More importantly who is tuning the car?

Yes 120 is very wishful thinking. i agree with dsp26 110kw would be the figure you'll be looking at. Why spec B cams? ITR cams work well with B16a's set-up. We are currently making 113kw with our set-up.

I would only use spec B cams if it has abit more compression and on a 1.8l. You'll find it abit laggy down low and you'll need to rev its **** of to make power.

Exactly what i've read and seen on all my research including dynographs posted all-over the net.

I have a question though, Is it really that necessary to have the 1.8l?? as stated by every else on these and similar cams... I was hoping a high enough Static CR and lightweight flywheel could compensate....

***EDIT***
also i can't remember if you had a thread about this 113wkw car of yours.. mind posting me the link or specs? around 110wkw is what i'm aiming for but with power focused on midrange...

Thanks in advance

[fatboyz39]

I would of choose skunk2 pro 1 cams. Make more mid-rang as oppose to stage 2 pro cams.

B16a with 11.6 or .8 comp, CTR pistons, ITR cams, P72 head (stock ports), Skunk2 manifold, 65mm t/b, megan headers (cheapo one), and custom CAI and of course ECU (tuned) = 113 kw (bell dyno)

[ZeForce]

Exactly what i've read and seen on all my research including dynographs posted all-over the net.

I have a question though, Is it really that necessary to have the 1.8l?? as stated by every else on these and similar cams... I was hoping a high enough Static CR and lightweight flywheel could compensate....

***EDIT***
also i can't remember if you had a thread about this 113wkw car of yours.. mind posting me the link or specs? around 110wkw is what i'm aiming for but with power focused on midrange...

Thanks in advance

I dont see why the B16a wouldnt benefit from the larger spec cams just as much as the bigger displacement engines, if not more. As long as its got high enough static compession to maintain a reasonable dynamic compression ratio should be fine. If you watch omniman's 200hp B16a project he actually runs stock bottom end with flat faced valves and milled head which gets static compression up around the 11.5 mark. Using rocket M22x cams that are just a bit smaller than toda Bs the engine made pretty decent power (roughly 200hp on an american dyno which would be around 170-180hp on a aussie dyno) IMO for stock bottom end I would go for something like BC3+ cams they seem to work really well from most of the dynos I have seen.

[Benson]

But you gota remember ominmans head is ported and worked. This guy will probably have a standard ported head.

[redinteg]

Thanks for the info guys, very helpful.
might look at flat faced valves.
Ive heared a few people say they are a good way to increase compression, they sound expensive though and i'm not doing the work myself.
lightweight fly wheel will be fitted down the line when i get the clutch replaced.


emanage? hmmm i would go for a hondata or crome ecu. More importantly who is tuning the car?
I'm getting it all setup at a place in Geelong because thats where i'm from but willing to travel to Melbourne for the tune if anyone can recommend a good honda tuner.
I got the emanage because ive been told hondata and chrome tuners are few and far between, the Emanage seemed the best option for me as this isnt a big budget build.

[Benson]

Just get a VAFC if thats the case. Very easy to tune. Get a wideband and DIY tuning. LOL.

[dupac->]

I would of choose skunk2 pro 1 cams. Make more mid-rang as oppose to stage 2 pro cams.

B16a with 11.6 or .8 comp, CTR pistons, ITR cams, P72 head (stock ports), Skunk2 manifold, 65mm t/b, megan headers (cheapo one), and custom CAI and of course ECU (tuned) = 113 kw (bell dyno)

you're running the ITR cams on a p72 head right..

would ITR cams in MY b16a2 be as good?

would you say running itr head components camshafts/valves/springs be sufficient enough or even good?

coz im tossin up with afew options on which way to go.

[ZeForce]

But you gota remember ominmans head is ported and worked. This guy will probably have a standard ported head.

Thats true, but even with stock ports 110-115kw should be obtainable with the right combination of header, IM, TB and good tuning

[fatboyz39]

you're running the ITR cams on a p72 head right..

would ITR cams in MY b16a2 be as good?

would you say running itr head components camshafts/valves/springs be sufficient enough or even good?

coz im tossin up with afew options on which way to go.

Are you buying them second hand? No need to change valves unless you want to take off the head. Valve springs not really a MUST but are recommended. The late model b16a2 has dual valve springs either on the intake or exhaust side, can't remember. There safe to rev to 8200rpm, if you want to rev to 8800rpm then valve springs will need to be change.

Yes P72 head on B16a bottom end, we use it caused it was the only head lying around.

[TODA AU]

Hey,
I am fitting toda spec B cams and toda valve springs to my b16a2 in the next 2 weeks and was wondering what sort of power i can expect.
It will be tuned with a Emanage blue with the extra ignition harness
I'm realy hoping for 120kw @ wheels
The car currently has cheapo 4-1 header, 2.5" exhaust with a highflow cat and a cai down into the guard with a k/n pod on the end.
Is 120kw at the wheels a little ambitious for this kind of setup?
Also at what rpm do people usualy find the spec b's can make power too?

Cheers guys

ill post a dyno results when its all done.

120kw can be achived using the Spec B's.
Though with a std head, bottom end & compression, it's unlikey you'll get that power, especially using an E-Manage (blue)
You may get there with an E-Manage ultimate as the rpm limit can be changed with this unit.
If you're unit is a blue, don't worry, with std compression, peak power will be at 7900~8200rpm anyway. (When the cams are installed & timed correctly)
Power band will be strongest between 3000rpm & 8000rpm.
Contrary to above posts, fact is you will have quite a bit more bottom end than standard & loads more mid range.
On same engine(B16), the peak power gains over type R cams is approx 5kw.
90% of the gains are in the low & mid rpm range where the difference is closer to 15~20kw.
If you were not aware, Type R low cam profile is identical to your std B16 or B18 cam low profile. The gains are only on Vtec where the profile is larger.
Spec B's offer significant gains on the low cam & this is where they really shine.
Talk otherwise really is just made up nonsence.
PM me if you need set up help etc.

[redinteg]

^Thank you very informative.
Is it at all possible to have the ECU reprogrammed to increase the rev limiter to say 9000rpm, and whould it be safe?

[TODA AU]

^Thank you very informative.
Is it at all possible to have the ECU reprogrammed to increase the rev limiter to say 9000rpm, and whould it be safe?
No problem...

Re rev limit...
Yes it is... The way to do it is to use either Hondata or Chrome or some other OBD1 EPROM tuning solution.
That said, if you did that it pretty much means the E-manage is redundant.

An E-Manage ultimate can be used to increase the rev limit, again you don't have this either.

Maybe someone else can offer a solution for you here.

Regarding 9000rpm (limit) with std bottom end,
The std rods & pistons in the B16A are fine to 9000rpm.
That is they will not fail because of rpm, they will wear out faster though.
TODA springs are fine to 9000rpm with OEM retainer...