whats wrong with FFcar on circuit?

[connorling]

hi there, i was having a disscussion with my workmate about FFcar and FRcar, they keep saying that FF is useless in circuit, i mean why????

question1: what is the advantages and disadvantages of FF and FR
question2: which one is better on track?
question3: why FF has less traction over FR according to my workmates?
question4: what does it take to stop FFcar understeering when u heavily accelerate out of the corner?

question5: my workmate owes a RB25DET in the R32GTS, and also having a SR20DET 180SX, do u think my EGbreezeEG3 with b18cnonR can beat up the straight line???

question6: why honda is keeping DC and civic in FF??? if FF is no good on traction and understeering a lot.

thanks man
these questions have been in my head for a long time.

[d15z1SUX]

hrm... well u don't totally step on it going out of a corner if you want to go fast this applies for both ff and fr in most cases.

fr drivers hate ff usually because it requires a differently driving style which they may not be accustomed to.

ff is not all doom and gloom just look at all the ff type r's and other ppls ff cars on this forum. try riding in someones ff that has some nice suspension mods. see how much it understeers. it probably won't understeer much unless they do something pretty severe.

yes ff isn't the best platform. well actually its the worst on paper lol but if its set up correctly who says its gonna stop you from having fun and getting some good lap times.

btw this has been discussed in at least 2 threads i swear. man the amount of arguing going on in those threads is like terrible. if you don't like ff dont drive one end of story lol.

[d15z1SUX]

if you look up lap times for circuit racing you will probably find that some ff cars are beating fr and 4wd cars. factors such as power and driver skill could be taken into consideration though. but i think that proves that ff cars are not totally useless for circuit.

[e240]

The Proconcept Civic all lap Wakefield under 1:09 and the Creek at 1:48
HiPower CRX - Wakefield - 1:07
A couple of us here have lapped Eastern creek around 1:55 in our FWD street cars

Alot of RWD drivers get pissed probably because their supposedly superior car gets shown up by a shopping trolley. LOL.

But yeah, i don't give a shit...I drive what I like, bugger all what people think.

[tinkerbell]

question1: what is the advantages and disadvantages of FF and FR

light weight = FF

question2: which one is better on track?

4WD

question3: why FF has less traction over FR according to my workmates?

tyre area is larger on RR (due to car being so heavy), but this does not mean there is more traction?

question4: what does it take to stop FFcar understeering when u heavily accelerate out of the corner?

the differential needs to work (and proper driver skills)

question5: my workmate owes a RB25DET in the R32GTS, and also having a SR20DET 180SX, do u think my EGbreezeEG3 with b18cnonR can beat up the straight line???

no.

question6: why honda is keeping DC and civic in FF??? if FF is no good on traction and understeering a lot.

FF = cheaper to manufacture

thanks man
these questions have been in my head for a long time.

simple modifications like rear sway bar upgrade remove understeer from FF (understeer is in-built by factory as understeer is SAFER on normal roads)

[Limbo]

but main issues with tracking FF is tyre wear as you are putting to use the front alot more than a RWD would put to their rears. Thus traction starts to be an issue on longer tracks

[tinkerbell]

you are talking about a different type of traction than the OP was asking about.

you are refering to longevity, not 'traction'

[90LAN]

question5: my workmate owes a RB25DET in the R32GTS, and also having a SR20DET 180SX, do u think my EGbreezeEG3 with b18cnonR can beat up the straight line???

generally the other cars will be quicker
depends on your mods and theirs
but power to weight will have u in front with all having basic mods
IMO and my experience
turbo cars heat up easy on the track too
so after a couple of laps ...it will be another story

[aaronng]

With FF, the front tyres both steer and apply power to the ground. So when you have larger slip angles while turning, the limit of traction during acceleration is lower than for an FR car. Of course, you can remedy this by using a high revving but low torque engine. :)

[connorling]

With FF, the front tyres both steer and apply power to the ground. So when you have larger slip angles while turning, the limit of traction during acceleration is lower than for an FR car. Of course, you can remedy this by using a high revving but low torque engine. :)

so u meant b16a will be better than b18c in acceleration while turning???
since b16a has less torque than b18

[connorling]

FF = cheaper to manufacture

but honda isnt selling cheap, the new CTR cost $40000, u can get a decent FR car for that price.

thing is i love honda, but i always hear people either laught at it being a FF or FF car why.

i think if civic is FR, then people will give more respect to it, i hate hearing people laught at honda.
perhaps honda can make base model FF, only typeR is FR, then wouldnt it be better??? but then again, less people will be able to do the convertions. or go for other FR cars

[aaronng]

so u meant b16a will be better than b18c in acceleration while turning???
since b16a has less torque than b18
Actually, I meant limit the torque so that you get less wheelspin when accelerating during a turn. You can do the same with a sensitive right foot, but it is not easy when you are committed 10/10 into a turn. :)

[rawr]

What tinkerbell means that FF is cheaper to manufacture is that it uses less parts. Also it's meant to be easier to manufacture too.

There is nothing wrong with FF. Good suspension mods and proper driving skills can result in really good times for track.

[RICER23Q]

You can't enter the 4WD cup's on GT4 with it.

[T-onedc2]

question5: my workmate owes a RB25DET in the R32GTS, and also having a SR20DET 180SX, do u think my EGbreezeEG3 with b18cnonR can beat up the straight line???


B18C2 in an EG (which is about 220kgs lighter than DC2) will beat R32 & R33's with light mods, even more so at the track given both cars have have some suspension mods.

[SHIFTY]

u tell the guy with the skyline his boat is not made for the track... will make spectators sea sick.. LOL

u probably will be the same as him on the straight... but the thing called corners (what a track is about) u will destroy him...

i love beating nissans on the track... they think they have the best cars in the world.. then they have some lil n/a 1.8 fwd econobox raping them :P

[Benson]

good to learn in a FF car.

[BlitZ]

a well driven RWD is very competitive.

FWD is only comparable on the lesser specs.. ie <150kw atw.

Not many FWD will ever hit a 1:10 at the old wakie... only ones that are substantially modified and will proabably be a 12-13sec car..

A stock std EVO will hit 1:10...
A well sorted (in suspension) and very well driven silvia with minor performance mods will do it too...


will be fun and competitive.. just not at the pinnacle level

[Jomsy]

I seem to remember some of the 2ltr supertourers lapping some tracks faster the then V8 supercars back in the day, where is the disadvantage in that

[e240]

u tell the guy with the skyline his boat is not made for the track... will make spectators sea sick.. LOL


GTR's are not boats, this is a boat - Haha...
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h186/e240_a/CarHouse.jpg

I think GTRs can be very quick track cars - having driven a couple (including an 800hp R34 VSpec) - So I wouldn't be so quick to put them down just because there are a few hacks around that drive them.

Checkout the the results at the last Ozhonda track day last year
http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results.cgi?20/07/2007.WAKE.S4.Y

The key point is, FF, FR, RR, RF, HF, whatever...have respect for what the other person is driving cause you don't know if he's a great driver and gonna trash you on the track (Although, more often than not, its only because he has a faster car..LOL)

At the end of the day, we're only driving for "honour and glory" - there's no money in it...

[Limbo]

hail the almighty AURION! I still wouldn't put it past you to run that car just to see what time you get.

[e240]

Aurion - no track for this baby...its a family car! FAMILY CAR!!

[aaronng]

Aurion - no track for this baby...its a family car! FAMILY CAR!!

If it has at least 2 wheels and road worthy, it can always go on the track. At least for a few warmup laps, 3 hot laps and a cool down lap. :p Now a Tarago on the track... that would be a sight to see.

[iced]

please tell us that your mates have been on the track.
if not they can STFU:p

regardless of whether its FF or FR it still fun on the track.

[aaronng]

I am guessing no, since they used the word "useless". I've tried a stock FF family car on old Wakie and it still goes around ok.

[Elwood]

I know of someone who is selling his 4wd R33 GTR V-spec because he hates 4wd on the circuit.

FF, FR - it really comes down to the driver, and what you are accustomed to.

[Nepolian]

I know of someone who is selling his 4wd R33 GTR V-spec because he hates 4wd on the circuit.

FF, FR - it really comes down to the driver, and what you are accustomed to.

Hmmmmm....whats wrong with this 'Guy'. I loved thrashing my R32 GTR around the track. Track is a track, should be able to enjoy it what ever car your in!

[DreadAngel]

^^^ Amen, who gives a flying **** what drivetrain or layout you have, you rock what you got, if you drive FF and beat the nuts off a FR good for you... If a FR dust you so what, 4WD 2.6L TT beats your ass, your in the wrong place anyway XD

[d15z1SUX]

the platformism needs to stop. equality for all.

[dsp26]

Checkout the the results at the last Ozhonda track day last year
http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results.cgi?20/07/2007.WAKE.S4.Y


Was that an actual OH day with other entrants coming along for the fun... when is the enxt one??

The fellow who came 3rd... Simon... great time, great driver... his N15sss dyno'd at 98wkw:thumbsup:

i noticed you came a very close 4th also... you running a B18cr in the eg? regardless... good stuff!!!

[e240]

B16A

But that GTR was moving...when it was on the track, everyone stopped and watched..:-p

[iced]

Was that an actual OH day with other entrants coming along for the fun... when is the enxt one??

The fellow who came 3rd... Simon... great time, great driver... his N15sss dyno'd at 98wkw:thumbsup:

i noticed you came a very close 4th also... you running a B18cr in the eg? regardless... good stuff!!!

His car is a full race spec SSS with rollcage.
Cams, ecu etc.

[fatboyz39]

respect for that SSS.....driver really knows how to drive adn setup the car properly.

Next day will be sometime in July

[Benson]

that GTR was amazing......just awesome down the striaghts!

[RICER23Q]

His car is a full race spec SSS with rollcage.
Cams, ecu etc.

No cage and no ecu.

[iced]

then im wrong :P
I thought it was because he competes with it and he had a powerFC somewhere in there.

[fatboyz39]

yeah i thought he had some kind of ECU. Wish i had a 2L motor....

[TODA AU]

/\ Then build one, you lazy bum... LOL

[fatboyz39]

/\ Then build one, you lazy bum... LOL

This is the swift im talking about ;). 1.14.1 with a 1.3L with 80kw, so predicting 2L around 100-110kw atw 800kg car = easy 1.08 - 1.09's. Only wish tho...won't happen.

[Limbo]

you've got alot of engines, why not build a hybrid, swift with a b20 or b18?
I'm sure that would be a first

[rawr]

relax buddy lmao.. i think the B series would be a bit tall for a swift anyway

[dsp26]

B16A

But that GTR was moving...when it was on the track, everyone stopped and watched..:-p

all the more impressive:thumbsup: thought you had b18cr




His car is a full race spec SSS with rollcage.
Cams, ecu etc.
yeah nah, just cams, i/h/e, sussy. not road rego'd though... but he is an excellent driver




respect for that SSS.....driver really knows how to drive adn setup the car properly.

Next day will be sometime in July
is it invite only? i was under the impression OH wasn't a club but merely a forum... thought needed to be CAMS licensed under an actual club? anyway point is can i participate? :) car should be finished by then...

[ONE600]

FF are disadvantaged on track. Not only are you steering and putting power to the ground with the same tyre but also weight distribution is very bad on a FF car. All the weight is at the front and gets even more uneven once you strip the car more. Yes you can dial out all of these problems with your suspension setup but at the end of the day its a big compromise. The biggest advantage is weight. Light cars tend to hide the handling flaws. Even though its might not be perfectly balanced but your still going through the corner pretty freaken fast. Theres not many cars out that corner faster than us at QR but we lose out due to the long straights.

FR are a different class so your really comparing oranges to apples. Put it this way. if our civics, crx,tegs, weigh as much as 200sx etc... we wont stand a chance!

Having said I would choose a FF to do mountain runs anyday over a FR

[connorling]

~please back to the topic~

according to u ONE600, so why honda keep building tegs civic with quite strong motor, yet keeping it FF???

so why people keep do up a civic and tegs?

[T-onedc2]

Worth noting the new FD JDM CTR is now quicker around Suzuka than NSX-R.

[macoman69]

Even though its might not be perfectly balanced but your still going through the corner pretty freaken fast. Theres not many cars out that corner faster than us at QR but we lose out due to the long straights.


tell me about it. I nearly crapped my pants in the crx on the first corner after the straight.

[d15z1SUX]

~please back to the topic~

according to u ONE600, so why honda keep building tegs civic with quite strong motor, yet keeping it FF???

so why people keep do up a civic and tegs?

could be one or more of the following reasons
1. could be the car handed down to them
2. cheap to run.
3. cheaper price than other cars
4. everyday driver

[e240]

You left one out..

5. By Choice..

[d15z1SUX]

yeh that could b one too hehe

[BlitZ]

6. Unlimited supply of ebay ricer products

[DreadAngel]

You left one out..

5. By Choice..

Thats one XD If they wanted to pursue pure sports, they'd probably go NSX direction and go midship rwd but keeping fwd, dunno stay away from the big bad blocks or turbo'd boys n girls maybe =|

[e240]

I don't know why so many people make such an issue over FWD vs whatever drive, and that if you "Really Want to Drive", you must get anything but a FWD. From what I've seen, these people are all armchair racers or the once (twice, threetimes - who cares?) a year track day warriors (Ok, I'll throw in the Takumi wannabes).

All these people go to the track and they get beaten by econoboxes...(??!!)
The ones who can really drive a RWD, you don't hear a peep from them.

Like I said, FWD, RWD, who cares? At the end of the day, we're only doing this as a hobby...None of us, or almost none of use are going to make it big anyway...I'm driving my car the best I can, yes, its a FWD, but I'm having fun, are you?

[DreadAngel]

The sterotyping of instant understeer or the talk of understeer being the bane of any sports car etc is a factor too, because since you can't do showy shit like a proper drift or burnout makes it not a good car =|

Funny thing is, seen plenty of RWD and AWD/4WD understeer off roads and tracks too =|

[e240]

heehee..A lousy driver always blames their tool...

[DreadAngel]

Bwahahaha so so true =P

Love it how they celebrate winning with a RWD V8 against a econo ricebox 1.6L :p

Even better when they make a ton of excuses when they lose XD

[fatboyz39]

my FWD car oversteers woohooooooooooo

[Munted]

There's a bit about FWD vs RWD on the Whiteline (http://www.whiteline.com.au/default.asp?page=/faqelse01.htm) site. I'm was surprised given Whiteline's association with V8s.

[SPEEDCORE]

Funny thing is, seen plenty of RWD and
AWD/4WD understeer off roads and tracks too =|

Daily driver RWD and AWD? Well if so no mystery there considering majority of production cars have the suspension tuned to produce understeer.

[PP Sports sedan]

I dont know if anyone has said this before ... but there is no advantage in what wheels drive you race car ...have a look at the Btcc ...
ive owned front wheel drives rear and all wheel drives ... all wheel are only better in the dirt or rain ..

[d15z1SUX]

i guess its funny when your fwd whoop some rwd through the corners. its like they can't belive what happened.

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

i guess its funny when your fwd whoop some rwd through the corners. its like they can't belive what happened.

aspecially when your disadvantaged under the circumstances :p

[PP Sports sedan]

if you let them pass you're not much of a driver ....

[SPEEDCORE]

if you let them pass you're not much of a driver ....

Try telling that to the blue flag :(

[PP Sports sedan]

get a faster car then

[DreadAngel]

Try telling that to the blue flag :(

LMFAO!

[PP Sports sedan]

i should've rephrased that .... i had the same problem then i got a faster car ...not a problem for me anymore
:p

[SPEEDCORE]

;)

So sport sedan with a PP ay? Keeping the V8 fellas honest I hope :)

[PP Sports sedan]

not the 6 litre guys ... but come out and watch the top gear race meetings ..

[SeverAMV]

if you go by illogical ways of driving, you can set up an FF for lift off oversteer and power on understeer, and you'd be surprised how much faster it can get you around a track. you can wipe off speed with slight oversteering, and gain it back quickly and stably by understeering out.

main advantage off FF is that it is light. if you dont factor in slippage, FFs are theoretically slow, but when you factor in slippage, FF's are surprisingly fast.

FFs arent produced more because they're supposedly better or anything, theyre just much cheaper to produce.

but all cars can be good, just need a good driver.

[nvmee]

u tell the guy with the skyline his boat is not made for the track... will make spectators sea sick.. LOL

u probably will be the same as him on the straight... but the thing called corners (what a track is about) u will destroy him...

i love beating nissans on the track... they think they have the best cars in the world.. then they have some lil n/a 1.8 fwd econobox raping them :P


a stock skyline and a an eg with a b18, id think the eg is a wanka for putting all that money into his car and then braggin how his car is " only a fwd" and how it can beat a "rwd"

[DreadAngel]

^^ Ditto lol, in the end its only a Egg with a bigger bottle under the hood vs a Skyline (Which one btw? GTS, GTS-T, GTS-4 or GT-R? If GT-R I'd LOVE to see that LOL)

[PP Sports sedan]

in that case ....my car is "only" 1308cc I'd love to line up next to him on a track sometime ...

[aaronng]

We are just in time for next month's Wakie track day to test everyone's theories out. :)

[nvmee]

but ur car is soooo light, compared to my heavy beast. some skylines like to have seats rear seats of passengers u know :P

[RICER23Q]

Run what you brung.

[DreadAngel]

LMFAO, we all know Rotaries are "only" 1.3L but projected to be 2x more or something like that compared to conventional cars :p

[PP Sports sedan]

1308 cc x 1.8 according to motorsport ..

[RICER23Q]

Meh. It's still a 1.3L in my books.

[DreadAngel]

Bahahaha, your books are wrong then aye :p

[RICER23Q]

No they are actually 1.3L... the only reason why there is the multiplier is due to motorsport...

[EKVTIR-T]

Whatever projected capacity or class it is put into is irrelevant.
It is physically 1308 cc.End of discussion.

[DreadAngel]

But to the rest of the world, they know its not your ordinary 1.3L and its process of producing power/torque is different, its like comparing a pair of Chopsticks to a Knife =|

[EKVTIR-T]

Ye but how much power it produce's or how it complete's the combustion process does not make it a bigger capacity.
1 rotor's chamber is 654cc whichever way you look at it.

[RICER23Q]

Ye but how much power it produce's or how it complete's the combustion process does not make it a bigger capacity.
1 rotor's chamber is 654cc whichever way you look at it.

Correct.

[PP Sports sedan]

we're just to fast ... get over it ..lol