Techniques for R and 1 gear shifting to avoid crunching.

[TheSaint]

It seems a few people have this problem, mainly with EG and DC2, i owned both of these cars at the same time and both had the same problem, the EG was allot worse. Unfortunately like all of us, these wonderful cars Honda made are getting old, it is good in one way because they will inevitably get cheaper but bad because the parts are all starting to get older.

It is a shame - the EG Civic and the DC2 Integra are great bases for project cars. The EK is cool too but i have never driven one so i cant comment about the gearbox.


THE PROBLEM
Reverse gear some times doesn't like to go straight in, or it crunches before u can get it in, which is really not good for your gear box, i may be wrong but it may be slightly harmful to other parts of ur car too.

These are simple techniques to get around this problem or at least make changing into reverse a bit smoother and allot better for your car.

When u are changing into reverse don't go straight into gear or try to force/crunch it!

The diagram represents a 5 speed gearbox, the star next to the gear represents the gear to move into at this step.


TECHNIQUE ONE
Put ur foot on the clutch, go up into fifth, keep ur foot on the clutch, than goto into reverse, than release ur foot:

CLUTCH IN
1 3 5
--------N*
2 4 R


1 3 5*
--------N
2 4 R


1 3 5
--------N
2 4 R*
CLUTCH OUT


TECHNIQUE TWO
If the above doesn't work try going lightly into reverse, if it doesn't work or u can feel its going to crunch or fight a little, put it into neutral than clutch out and back in again, than try again.

CLUTCH IN
1 3 5
--------N
2 4 R*


1 3 5
--------N*
2 4 R

CLUTCH OUT
CLUTCH IN

1 3 5
--------N
2 4 R*
CLUTCH OUT


I hope these are helpful =)

[[NAV]]

when i had my em1 i used to put it in first roll a tiny bit forward then go back to reverse and it worked! but i dont get that problem on the lude

[55EXX]

i also find coming to a complete stop is good too.... and for the clutch. but it is a proplem that really shits me sometime i just gotta smash it in

[NightKids]

3rd --> 5th works everytime

[TheSaint]

Another thing i have noticed when people drive is that:

A. You are suppose to stop the car completely before going into 1st

B. The same applies for reverse

And the whole point of this thread is not to just 'smash it in' - if you have to do this (failing the above techniques) than i would go get it looked at.

Im just saying this in advance, not trying to sound mean or have a go at anyone, if you don't have the patients for either trying these points or getting it fixed than i don't believe you should be driving a car.

I posted this up to help the honder noobs out with their car/driving, i hope i have helped, this is the 1st time ive written a guide etc =D

[Spicey]

1st and rev don't have shynchros hence why you cant "jam it in". Just be patient with your gearbox, thats all it needs.

[teaseR]

It seems a few people have this problem, mainly with EG and DC2, i owned both of these cars at the same time and both had the same problem, the EG was allot worse. Unfortunately like all of us, these wonderful cars Honda made are getting old, it is good in one way because they will inevitably get cheaper but bad because the parts are all starting to get older.

It is a shame - the EG Civic and the DC2 Integra are great bases for project cars. The EK is cool too but i have never driven one so i cant comment about the gearbox.

It seems a few people have this problem, mainly with EG and DC2, i owned both of these cars at the same time and both had the same problem, the EG was allot worse.


I may be drunk but im not wasted.
was it c&p?

but for me its tap the accelerator with clutch in then put it in reverse. if not 4th and then R will do the trick

[TheSaint]

lol wen i was editing the whole post copied itself and i must have not cleaned it up properly... thanx for spotting it =)

[sassy_fit_vtit]

I think it has something to do with how the gears are lined, most hondas have problems gettin into reverse,

if it doesnt go in the first time, i'll put it back into N & then into reverse again until i hear the "click"

[SeverAMV]

I think it has something to do with how the gears are lined, most hondas have problems gettin into reverse,

if it doesnt go in the first time, i'll put it back into N & then into reverse again until i hear the "click"

actually, i think its something to do with the reason why double clutching works. you need to stop the shaft from moving before going into reverse, and the best way to do this is to push it into a gear when the car isnt moving, and then push it into reverse, or something like that.

[omgzilla]

Reverse gear doesn't have a synchro and is usually a straight cut gear, meaning that it won't just slide into gear smoothly every time.

Being straight cut means the gear is strong, but causes the annoying (to some) whine when reversing.

The double-clutching usually works but once engaged will usually thud.

My technique:
If it won't go straight in once you're at a complete stop put it into first gear, let off the brake and let out the clutch slightly to allow the car to creep forward a bit (a few inches or so). Then it should go directly into reverse.

If not - repeat the process, but this time allow the car to creep a bit further forward than last time. Once you get the hang of it (how far you need to let it creep forward) you'll be able to get it into reverse every time WITHOUT crunching.

I've been using this method for years!

Works particularly well when the car has been parked with the weight of the car is rested on the gearbox instead of the handbrake - which seems to happen alot when people don't pull the handbrake up enough and leave it in gear.

[TegRAH]

pump the clutch a lil to if it wont go in at first, that works for me =]

[r0b3rt]

what i do is, clutch in > shift to 1st > goto reverse and it goes in no crunch at all, rather than if i just went straight into rev from neutral

[TegRAH]

actually, i think its something to do with the reason why double clutching works. you need to stop the shaft from moving before going into reverse, and the best way to do this is to push it into a gear when the car isnt moving, and then push it into reverse, or something like that.

yeah thats where the idea came from along time ago, cus in old trucks/cars they didnt have syncro's so you would double clutch so you wouldnt ruin the gearbox.

as stated before above if 1st and reverse in honda's dont have syncro's then at a stand still double clutch and it should go in nice.

thats just my 2 cents haha:)

[ek4-guy]

if it doesn't go into reverse just pop it into 1st then back to reverse

[55EXX]

i find the 1st to reverse works best but if your car does alot what does that mean? like i try all of these and still sometimes can't get it to go in.

[omgzilla]

i find the 1st to reverse works best but if your car does alot what does that mean? like i try all of these and still sometimes can't get it to go in.

Put into 1st gear, let the clutch out slightly and let it creep forward a bit and then try putting it into reverse.

If it won't go in, repeat above - but let it creep further forward and/or let the clutch right out while creeping forward in 1st.

[andiiso]

i never go straight into reverse .. just a habit i usually go 2nd then reverse, dun usually have a problem, but if i do have a problem gettin it in (this is when my foot is on brake) i just release brake and itll slip straight it lolz .. and if that doesnt work and it kinda feels crunch or tough then i go out of reverse and either let go of clutch or keep my foot on there and then clutch in and go third then go to reverse ... never had any problems further then that.

[AzKik-R]

easy.... take it into neutral, let the clutch out, then clutch back in, then slides into reverse. should always work
what you might be doing at the moment is driving in first/2nd/3rd whichever forward gear, then clutching in and breaking to stop, and then going straight into reverse
when the car stops, simply go to neutral, take foot off clutch, and then foot back on clutch, and should go straight into reverse.
I found myself starting the car with my foot on clutch, and never being able to go into reverse.
but clutching off, and then on again, she always goes right into reverse no probs

[rawr]

I do 4th > reverse it *clicks in*

oh and pump the clutch a bit

[kyobibi]

my dc2r and gf's EG have different problems going into reverse but have the same solution
dc2r: just doesnt go in, feels like something is blocking the way
eg: crunches everytime.

solution, clutch -> into 4th -> into reverse.
works smoothly everytime :D

[TheSaint]

thanx for the added technique omgzilla, works a treat =)

[Red_EG4]

I double clutch into first all the time. I hate reverse whine, just something about it worries me.
Thanks for the tips everyone, I hate crunching my gears!

[EKVTIR-T]

I double clutch into first all the time. I hate reverse whine, just something about it worries me.
Thanks for the tips everyone, I hate crunching my gears!
The whine is ok.No need to stress.
It's because reverse is a straight cut gear.

[omgzilla]

thanx for the added technique omgzilla, works a treat =)

You're welcome dude!

It ALWAYS works! Once you get the hang of it - you're set for life :p

[55EXX]

yeah the roll a bit thing in first is good works well. 1st to reverse ftw

[V73C]

1st and 2nd are straight cut gears, if you cant get it in reverse, shove it in first, then try again to reverse

[55EXX]

1st and 2nd straight cut something tells me no

[omgzilla]

1st and 2nd are straight cut gears

I beg to differ.

Anyways, i think there's enough techniques listed now.

No need for any more discussion, in my opinion.

[Elwood]

A. You are suppose to stop the car completely before going into 1st

Ummm.?

Its called heel and toe-ing :)

Reverse = 4th and then reverse.

If that doesnt work, release the clutch and try again.

[JohnL]

Reverse gear doesn't have a synchro and is usually a straight cut gear, meaning that it won't just slide into gear smoothly every time.

Reverse is the only gear that isn't in constant mesh, meaning that when you select it you're sliding the actual gear teeth into mesh rather than just engaging 'dog' teeth in the synchroniser assemblies (as with all the forward gears).

I'm pretty sure this is the real reason why the reverse gears are straight cut, i.e. to allow the gear teeth to slide into mesh with each other, rather than for increased strength (though stronger is good).

No synchro exists on reverse so it's easier to grind the leading edges of the gears as they meet up, but it is asociated with wear. After thousands of shifts into reverse (with no rpm matching from synchromesh) the leading edges of the gear teeth start getting rounded off, and as a result tend to not engage each other as 'decisively' as they once did when the teeth had more sharply defined / more angled leading edges. So what happens is that with a gentle engagement the teeth (which are rotating at different rpm on each gear) 'bounce' off each other until this action brings them closer to each other in rpm.

I used to work on Bugattis when I was empoyed in a motor museum, and the boxes on 'Bugs' had no pre-engaged gears (i.e constant mesh), the gears moved into and out of mesh when any shift was made. This made it almost impossible to engage first gear (or reverse) without a rather dramatic 'crunch', but it never seems to do any real harm so long as the revs are low when you shift into first gear and you don't mess about (i.e you need to push the lever into gear firmly to limit how much time the gears spent 'crunching'). Having said that, I'm not meaning to suggest that you shouldn't bother avoiding a crunch into reverse if you can.

Someone mentioned 1st gear not having synchromesh. I've never had a Honda box apart, but I'd be extremely surprised if this was the case. If this were true then crunching the shift into 1st would be dead easy to do, and it isn't (I've driven enough old cars with no synchro on 1st gear to know what that's like). Long gone are the days when car manufacturers pinched pennies by not fitting synchro on 1st gear.

[V73C]

1st and 2nd straight cut something tells me no

we took my mates gear box out of a corrolla out, and look at the gears, and they are straight cuts.
well thats my experience, maybe honda is different i dont know

[TheSaint]

so about the only changing into R and 1 wen the car is stopped..

true or false?

opinions?

[Elwood]

we took my mates gear box out of a corrolla out, and look at the gears, and they are straight cuts.
well thats my experience, maybe honda is different i dont know


They'd be helical. You sure you knew what you were looking for?

It doesnt make much sense to have a street gearbox with all straight cut gears :confused:

[JohnL]

we took my mates gear box out of a corrolla out, and look at the gears, and they are straight cuts.
well thats my experience, maybe honda is different i dont know

I find that overwhelmingly difficult to believe, unless that car was fitted with a racing gearset. No stock gearset will have straight cut gears on any of the forward gears, they are just unacceptably noisy for a road car.

I think you must have been confusing the reverse gears with 1st and 2nd. There are three gear cogs involved with reverse gear, the 'reverse idler gear', the 'reverse sliding gear', and the reverse gear incorporated into the 'cluster gear', all straight cut. All the others will be helical cut. Note that only reverse gear requires an 'idler gear' (giving three gear cogs for reverse), all forward gears only require two gear cogs per gear.

[Elwood]

^Plus the reverse gears are on a differant shaft.

Correct?

[JohnL]

^Plus the reverse gears are on a differant shaft.

Correct?

Only the reverse 'idler' gear, which has it's own dedicated shaft (a short one). The other two are on the same shafts that the forward gears are on.

Reverse needs a third gear to reverse the rotational direction of the cluster gear, which is the only real purpose of the idler gear, though it does affect the ratio.

[OMG.JAI xD]

gear 1 n 2 aint straight cut on eg ..
i really doubt that it is ..
it would be really really noisy if it was.
only gear 1 is noisy in low rpms, and thats only because of the ratio it runs..

n u can shift into first wen you are moving..
double clutch.
heel toe doesnt work, heel toe only matches engine speed and transmission speed so when the clutch engages it doesnt put stress on the final drive and exit/enter a turn with maximum amount of torque.
unless you double clutch heel toe, which not many people do cause you dont reall need it. :/
hard to practice sorta though .. brake, clutch in, neutral, clutch out, rev, clutch in, gear, clutch out, accelerate.

really you shouldnt really need it driving in the streets.
i still do it though, only heel toe n double clutch, only to save gearbox components. though it does drink more fuel.. but id rather pay for fuel than overhaul n replace gearbox parts.

=]

[Elwood]

heel toe doesnt work, heel toe only matches engine speed and transmission speed so when the clutch engages it doesnt put stress on the final drive and exit/enter a turn with maximum amount of torque.


I heel and toe into first all the time, at speeds of 25-35kmph. Trust me it works.

[JohnL]

gear 1 n 2 aint straight cut on eg ..
i really doubt that it is ..
it would be really really noisy if it was.
only gear 1 is noisy in low rpms, and thats only because of the ratio it runs.

If any of the forward gears are SC then all of them will be, and it will be a special racing gearset not a stock set. 1st gear will be as quiet as the rest unless it's worn, which isn't unlikely on a high mileage box since 1st gear sees higher torque loadings than the other gears because 1st has the smallest (and largest) diameter forward gear in the box (more loading on the smaller gear's teeth).


n u can shift into first wen you are moving..
double clutch.

Ordinary 'rev matching' will do the job.


heel toe doesnt work,

It will, but you don't need to do it because you have synchromesh on all the forward gears, you only need to rev match as you shift into 1st gear.


heel toe only matches engine speed and transmission speed so when the clutch engages it doesnt put stress on the final drive and exit/enter a turn with maximum amount of torque.

You're talking about 'rev matching', which may or may not include 'heel / toe'.


unless you double clutch heel toe, which not many people do cause you dont reall need it. :/

I heel / toe a lot, but you're right, it's not really needed in 'normal' driving. Heel / toe by definition involves rev matching, but while also braking. The term 'heel / toe' defines using the brake and throttle pedals at the same time with one foot, leaving the other foot free to use the clutch.


hard to practice sorta though .. brake, clutch in, neutral, clutch out, rev, clutch in, gear, clutch out, accelerate.
'Double clutching' and 'heel / toe' are more or less the same thing except that with 'heel / toe' you're also using the brake pedal simulataneously with the throttle and clutch pedals.

Good description of the actions involved in double cutching.

'Double clutching' (or double de-clutching') is an archaic term from the pre synchromesh days when to shift down with 'rev matching' really did require the clutch to be depressed twice for each downshift.

These days synchromesh eliminates the need to actualy use the clutch twice, just blipping the throttle as you pass through neutral (with clutch pedal still depressed) works fine becaue the synchros will match gear speeds for you, meaning all the driver has to do is to match engine speed to gear and road speed. You can heel / toe if you want, but it tends to slow the shift down a bit. I used to double declutch because that's what I was taught, but experience showed me it wasn't needed when rev matching.

This is the same when heel / toeing, i.e. you use all three pedals simultaneously, but you don't need to use the clutch twice.


really you shouldnt really need it driving in the streets. i still do it though, only heel toe n double clutch, only to save gearbox components. though it does drink more fuel.. but id rather pay for fuel than overhaul n replace gearbox parts. =]

It does lessen stress on components, but also gives a faster / nicer / smoother shift, and means you're pro-actively in the correct gear when you need to be rather than having to reactively shift after you need to.