Would you consider a SP23/MPS over a Euro

[tron07]

I think with the current price for a SP23, I might have bought it instead of a Euro....

Just wondering how much is the insurace for the MPS... is it a lot more (WRX region) or just slightly more (Mondeo XR5 region)...

[Feverpitched]

... which MPS?

If you're talking about the MPS6, then yes, I'd take that in a heartbeat.

The MPS3, while a balltearer (170kw at the wheels, bone stock) it just doesn't have the 'sedan' feel of a Euro.

The SP23 ain't that great.

[aaronng]

I'd take the Euro over the SP23. I'd take the MPS6 over the Euro. MPS3....... I'd take the current WRX hatch over the MPS3.

[dc2dc2dc2]

this isn't techincally euro specific is it?
i thought general discussion like this would go to lounge?

[aaronng]

The discussion involves the Accord Euro.

[dc2dc2dc2]

oh ok. my bad.
just the way i read his question
thought it was more directed at price of insurance on MPS. :)
not really asking much about euro or asking for comparisons.

[aaronng]

I saw 2 questions. The first was "Would you consider a SP23/MPS over a Euro" and the 2nd was the insurance of the MPS.

But yeah, there were a few "Civic or Mazda3" threads before and those stayed in the Civic section.

[tony1234]

No.I think the Euro is a better"all round"car than the Mazdas you mention.

[r-r-redEuro]

IMO, i take the euro over any sp23 mazdas.

but if it was the mps, i'll take the MPS-3 because on paper it does perform better then the MPS-6, its slightly fast er too and probably better handling.

If you involve the WRX, i'd take that instead =)

[tron07]

but the savings of like 7 grand between the MPS and Euro is a lot to consider... Civic sports's savings compare to Euro is not that big, so between Euro and Civic, I think the Euro wins hands down.

[r-r-redEuro]

tron.. lol first we are talking about the mazda's compared to the euro adding the xr5 mondeo and WRX. and now you bring up the civic lol OP stick to the discussion =P

[Mr_will]

... which MPS?

If you're talking about the MPS6, then yes, I'd take that in a heartbeat.

The MPS3, while a balltearer (170kw at the wheels, bone stock) it just doesn't have the 'sedan' feel of a Euro.

The SP23 ain't that great.

erm, nope. 190kw at the fly, courtesy of mazda.com.au. this would equate to around 142kw atw, assuming 25% drivetrain loss.

to achieve 170kwatw it would need to be putting out around 212kw at the fly. which it doesnt.

it also isnt a sedan, so thats probably why it doesnt have the sedan feel of the euro.

one is a hot hatch, the other is a sporty family sedan - it pretty much comes down to whether you prefer a more refined cruiser in the euro, or something with decent power, but that is smaller and not as well built (im not saying the mazdas are poorly built per se, but comparing mazdas and hondas i've driven, ive always found the hondas to be superior)

[aaronng]

^^ Depends which dyno you use :p
Hehe, but you're right, it's 25% usually as the rule of thumb from fly to wheel.

Have you guys tested the MPS3? It turns fast as long as you don't touch the accelerator before you are past the apex and on the straight again. Wheel spin heaven, that one...

[Feverpitched]

erm, nope. 190kw at the fly, courtesy of mazda.com.au. this would equate to around 142kw atw, assuming 25% drivetrain loss.

to achieve 170kwatw it would need to be putting out around 212kw at the fly. which it doesnt.

it also isnt a sedan, so thats probably why it doesnt have the sedan feel of the euro.

one is a hot hatch, the other is a sporty family sedan - it pretty much comes down to whether you prefer a more refined cruiser in the euro, or something with decent power, but that is smaller and not as well built (im not saying the mazdas are poorly built per se, but comparing mazdas and hondas i've driven, ive always found the hondas to be superior)

Erm, yep. I watched it pull this number at a dyno day I organised the year before. The dyno wasn't reading exceptionally high either, my car reeled off a door slamming 89kw atw, which is what I expected from a 2.5L V6. While I do remember talk of a 30% drivetrain loss for RWD cars, I do believe the drivetrain losses are significantly lower in a FWD platform.

I should have rephrased the sedan comment. I meant to say that it looked a bit too lairy for my liking. The MPS6 is pushing the boundaries, and the Euro look is spot on for my tastes.

[aaronng]

Was it stock?

[wynode]

Have you guys tested the MPS3? It turns fast as long as you don't touch the accelerator before you are past the apex and on the straight again. Wheel spin heaven, that one...

As much as I hate to admit it the MPS3 is a very well handling car. Downside is that the sussy is abit stiff and it torque steers pretty bad. That said, for the price you're doing pretty well with 190kW of power. Interior is pretty nice too. Just doesn't have sat nav (which may / may not be an issue).

MPS6 Vs Euro....power wise I'd go with the MPS6 but otherwise probably the Euro.

[Feverpitched]

Was it stock?

Bone stock. It did not even have an exhaust or have any intake modifications.

Not surprisingly, it took out the highest power output honours out of our ragtag bunch of cars...

[aaronng]

Bone stock. It did not even an exhaust or have any intake modifications.

Not surprisingly, it took out the highest power output honours out of our ragtag bunch of cars...

Did you have any stock DC5Rs on that dyno day? I have a fairly good idea on the numbers that they pull. Then I can calculate how many % drivetrain loss the dyno had. What brand was the dyno?

[Feverpitched]

No DC5R's, and it was a Dyno Dynamics rolling road.

The 89kw atw came from my supposed 120kw at the engine 2.5L V6 if that helps.

[Mr_will]

Erm, yep. I watched it pull this number at a dyno day I organised the year before. The dyno wasn't reading exceptionally high either, my car reeled off a door slamming 89kw atw, which is what I expected from a 2.5L V6. While I do remember talk of a 30% drivetrain loss for RWD cars, I do believe the drivetrain losses are significantly lower in a FWD platform.

I should have rephrased the sedan comment. I meant to say that it looked a bit too lairy for my liking. The MPS6 is pushing the boundaries, and the Euro look is spot on for my tastes.

well why dont you check the mazda website then.

190kw stock.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67443&highlight=drivetrain+loss

thread supporting 25% drivetrain loss on a FWD

75% of 190kw = 142.5. a stock mps is never going to pull 170kw atw, so there are only really three options:

1) the dyno was shithouse

2) you misread it

3) the mps wasnt stock

[Feverpitched]

well why dont you check the mazda website then.

190kw stock.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67443&highlight=drivetrain+loss

thread supporting 25% drivetrain loss on a FWD

75% of 190kw = 142.5. a stock mps is never going to pull 170kw atw, so there are only really three options:

1) the dyno was shithouse

2) you misread it

3) the mps wasnt stock

Yep. The dyno was wrong. We were all wrong. Silly me, you're never wrong. I should discount a real world dyno reading because you said so. Where's that rolleyes smilie?

It's funny how the armchair experts spout knowledge read from the interweb to counter real world tested data?

[EuroAccord13]

I've tested the MPS 3.... Powerful and linear delivery but getting traction off the line was hard.. The salesman agreed on that too...

In short, I'll still take the Euro over the MPS 3 but I'll take the MPS 6 over the Euro and the Liberty GT Spec.B over the MPS 6 LOL!

[Mr_will]

Yep. The dyno was wrong. We were all wrong. Silly me, you're never wrong. I should discount a real world dyno reading because you said so. Where's that rolleyes smilie?

It's funny how the armchair experts spout knowledge read from the interweb to counter real world tested data?

please enlighten me as to YOUR explanation then?

the mps magically has the lowest drivetrain loss ever, at around 10%?

face it, it either wasnt stock, or the numbers were wrong. read the mazda website already, 190kw at the fly isnt in dispute, and drivetrain loss for a fwd should be either...cant actually believe you are still arguing here

[EuroAccord13]

There is no correct DRIVE TRAIN LOSS for any cars, all these figures are only a standard base for easy comparison and calculation whether it is FWD, RWD or AWD.

ART has performed numourous drive train loss measurements and for a few FWDs car of the same model, drive train loss of between 12%-30% have been recorded...

[yfin]

please enlighten me as to YOUR explanation then?

the mps magically has the lowest drivetrain loss ever, at around 10%?

face it, it either wasnt stock, or the numbers were wrong. read the mazda website already, 190kw at the fly isnt in dispute, and drivetrain loss for a fwd should be either...cant actually believe you are still arguing here

How do you know the Mazda fly figure is correct? Lots of fly figures are underrated by manufacturers.

In terms of the 3MPS I have seen reports of 160kw+ at the wheels on stock MPS3 a couple of times.... I think you need to chill out and not assume that you are always right without checking the facts.

edit -- found 2 examples:

linky (http://www.exe-crew.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11491&sid=08d2524dea52fb9987aefec7cc746a25)

212.0 KW ATW - Tran (blacks14) - RWD - 200sx S14
168.8 KW ATW - alistair (Aldmo87) - RWD - Toyota soarer
162.4 KW ATW - Silas (Flameboy) - RWD - 350Z (pod filter)
161.7 KW ATW - Cain (KRNAGE) - FWD - MPS3 (stock)
155.9 KW ATW - Dano (DFAULT) - RWD - R32 GTS-T
144.5 KW ATW - Hany Khoury (Hayness) - RWD - 180SX
140.2 KW ATW - Braedyn Corbani (corbz) - RWD - 200SX S15
131.5 KW ATW - Thao (fknidt) - FWD - civic vitR
130.6 KW ATW - James Caws - RWD - 96 Falcon Ute XH
127.5 KW ATW - Joel (Astro) - RWD - RX8
127.2 KW ATW - Stephen (takahashi) - RWD - RX8
126.7 KW ATW - William (YellowRX8) - RWD - RX8
122.9 KW ATW - Jorge (fly_sri) - FWD - Astra SRI T
120.2 KW ATW - Gaspar (typeG) - FWD - Accord Euro *4th Gear*
119.9 KW ATW - Yohan (Curik) - FWD - Accord Euro *4th Gear*
119.4 KW ATW - Andrew H (auzoom) - RWD - RX8
118.4 KW ATW - Kit (Kitbkk) - FWD - Accord Euro *4th Gear*
118.3 KW ATW - Bryan (silver_slug) - FWD - Corolla Sportivo
114.4 KW ATW - Jarrod (jarrodgt4) - AWD - celica GT4
103.0 KW ATW - andrew (Sandy) - FWD - Mazda3 SP23
98.0 KW ATW - Daniel (Dantze) - FWD - 206 GTI
97.8 KW ATW - Chee (sheepo) - FWD - Mazda3 SP23
97.0 KW ATW - Brian (Chompies) - FWD - Mazda3 SP23
94.7 KW ATW - Cam (Cam) - FWD - Mazda3 SP23
88.0 KW ATW - Jason (Unco) - FWD - Mazda3 maxx sport
83.7 KW ATW - Jules (RME1) - FWD - Corolla 1zzFe
75.3 KW ATW - Kate Vanderlugt (91cel) - FWD - 91 Celica 5SFE
67.6 KW ATW - Songaz (fitz) - FWD - Jazz Vti-S

and this one

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/A_109041/article.html

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1090/109041_6mg.jpg

The paper specs read 190kW and 380Nm, but on ChipTorque’s Dyno Dynamics, a standard MPS churns out 160kW at the wheels! The relationship between at-the-wheels power and flywheel power on these dynos can rage endlessly, but let us tell you one thing – no cars with only 190kW at the flywheel can develop 160kW on this dyno... In short, Mazda kilowatts are pretty damn’ strong!

http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_107793/article.html

[Feverpitched]

There is no correct DRIVE TRAIN LOSS for any cars, all these figures are only a standard base for easy comparison and calculation whether it is FWD, RWD or AWD.

ART has performed numourous drive train loss measurements and for a few FWDs car of the same model, drive train loss of between 12%-30% have been recorded...


How do you know the Mazda fly figure is correct? Lots of fly figures are underrated by manufacturers.


Thank you both.

[r-r-redEuro]

wow 120.2 kw accord euro. is that stock ?! :O or modded. it gets me motivated to go to the toda dyno and get some numbers lol hopefully i get soemthing good. auto car :(

[ginganggooly]

please enlighten me as to YOUR explanation then?

the mps magically has the lowest drivetrain loss ever, at around 10%?

face it, it either wasnt stock, or the numbers were wrong. read the mazda website already, 190kw at the fly isnt in dispute, and drivetrain loss for a fwd should be either...cant actually believe you are still arguing here


Wahahahaha
Jesus christ... Good to see the know it all dipshits are still around these parts :D

FWIW, I've seen a stock 3 MPS pull 160-odd on the rollers...

[albii]

I have driven the mps 3. It's very fast, especially while in gear but it's aalso a bit of a pig. Not very refined ,torque steers everywhere,noisy tyres, chepo looking interior and the list goes on.
But it would absolutely smash a wrx on the highway.

[tony1234]

Wahahahaha
Jesus christ... Good to see the know it all dipshits are still around these parts :D

...
Agreed.I can't understand why some people here take these sort of discussions so personallly.:confused:

[Pumped]

Ive considered buying an MPS3, its the price that puts me off, its a great little car just seems like alot of money over the sp23 once you factor in the sports pack.
As for the sp23 its kinda sloow and feels a class lower (as it is) then the euro, a mate of mine has one and i liked it at first but now its aged about as much as my euro it hasnt got the same tight feel it did new, whereas the euro still feels nice (besides a few annoying creaks and tapping sounds)

Id probably take the mps3 over my euro though, im missing some decent power!
If there was a new mps6 on the cards id be seriously thinking about it, but it seems thats not going to happen

As for the new wrx, id really consider one if the seating position wasnt so bad.

Ive tried to sit in them a few times, im reasonably tall and in a manual wrx trying to clutch my knee hits the steering wheel.
Anyone tall had the chance to sit in one and really fiddle with the sitting position?
is it possible to get a comfortable position?


As for insurance the mps3 is actually quite cheap, ive priced them for myself.
Was similar to the euro, Very cheap for a turbo sports car :)

[aaronng]

wow 120.2 kw accord euro. is that stock ?! :O or modded. it gets me motivated to go to the toda dyno and get some numbers lol hopefully i get soemthing good. auto car :(

Come, because my stock Euro with just a pod will be on the dyno. :thumbsup: let's compare numbers.

[tron07]

tron.. lol first we are talking about the mazda's compared to the euro adding the xr5 mondeo and WRX. and now you bring up the civic lol OP stick to the discussion =P


I think you got me wrong.... the XR5 mondeo or WRX was regarding the insurance amount.... WRX insurance for me is around 3k++ while mondeo was 1.5k++ and euro is 1.3k++


There is already a thread started by mr "would you consider a euro over a Mondeo" do a search.

[bodaas]

if you talking about how fast, yess mps definately over euro

mps is the wrx new enemies, only watch out for cornering
*Euroaccord13 Edit*
No Street Racing References

[mr747]

there is alot of tention here lol

[sodaz]

erm, nope. 190kw at the fly, courtesy of mazda.com.au. this would equate to around 142kw atw, assuming 25% drivetrain loss.

to achieve 170kwatw it would need to be putting out around 212kw at the fly. which it doesnt.



That's correct. The 3 MPS makes about 140-145kw atw stock. It's been dynoed and proven.

[SPQR]

I just drove a new Lancer to Kakadu NP and back yesterday (130km/h now the legal limit in NT). I can say that they are impressively stable at speed with an excellent ride. Much better than Euro. Buuuut! The noise from the road/tyres was totally mind-numbing!

I wonder if the new Ralliart Lancer and then the new EVO are any better noise-wise? These cars are potential Euro replacements. Particularly if they are as stabe as the Lancer at speed. The Euro is hopelessly unstable at sustained high speed.

[IVTECS4]

No... I will not drive anything from mazda every again - they are expensive to service... my sister's SP23 and my previous car - the 626 Wagon has numerous things that were expensive to fix and service is way more than the Euro's service at GWS Honda .

My old man owned the really old 1986ish toyota camry wagon (before he traded that in for the 1995 Nissan Maxima 30G) . When we brought the Euro, he was impressed by the service cost; so definitely Honda and Toyota would be good choices ...

[wynode]

Ive considered buying an MPS3, its the price that puts me off, its a great little car just seems like alot of money over the sp23 once you factor in the sports pack.



I think the best way to look at it is in comparison the its competitors. Ie the GTi, WRX, CTR and the soon(ish) to be released Ralliart Lancer. $/kW wise it is the best of the afore mentioned.



As for the new wrx, id really consider one if the seating position wasnt so bad.

Ive tried to sit in them a few times, im reasonably tall and in a manual wrx trying to clutch my knee hits the steering wheel.
Anyone tall had the chance to sit in one and really fiddle with the sitting position?
is it possible to get a comfortable position?



The driver seat has a height adjustment on the RHS. Did you make sure it was all the way down?

[EUR003act]

erm, nope. 190kw at the fly, courtesy of mazda.com.au. this would equate to around 142kw atw, assuming 25% drivetrain loss.

to achieve 170kwatw it would need to be putting out around 212kw at the fly. which it doesnt.

it also isnt a sedan, so thats probably why it doesnt have the sedan feel of the euro.

one is a hot hatch, the other is a sporty family sedan - it pretty much comes down to whether you prefer a more refined cruiser in the euro, or something with decent power, but that is smaller and not as well built (im not saying the mazdas are poorly built per se, but comparing mazdas and hondas i've driven, ive always found the hondas to be superior)

ive seen multiple dyno sheets for the MPS6 and 3... bone stock the MPS6 gets between 145-155kw at all four wheels and the MPS3 gets 160-5kw at the front wheels...

[Pumped]

I think the best way to look at it is in comparison the its competitors. Ie the GTi, WRX, CTR and the soon(ish) to be released Ralliart Lancer. $/kW wise it is the best of the afore mentioned.



The driver seat has a height adjustment on the RHS. Did you make sure it was all the way down?




Price for kw isnt really the best way to by a car though, it does offer good bang for your buck but the gti/wrx/crx imo are finished much nicer then the mps3.


Im definately going to be looking at the new ralliart lancer when its realised, seems like it'll be a great buy


I think the height adjustment in the wrx was right down, but ill be sure to try it again :)

[28RAG]

Ive got an MPS3 with semi slicks, so the traction problem is fixed. Love it because so many people think they're inferior to the WRX but find out they were incorrect.

[28RAG]

ive seen multiple dyno sheets for the MPS6 and 3... bone stock the MPS6 gets between 145-155kw at all four wheels and the MPS3 gets 160-5kw at the front wheels...

Correct - stock MPS3's put down around 160kw ATW

Im yet to dyno mine properly with dump pipe, race pipe, cai, bov but I will shortly and let you know

[Euro76]

^^ Depends which dyno you use :p
Hehe, but you're right, it's 25% usually as the rule of thumb from fly to wheel.

Have you guys tested the MPS3? It turns fast as long as you don't touch the accelerator before you are past the apex and on the straight again. Wheel spin heaven, that one...

Yeah I have test driven the MPS3 on a Mazda dealer, my God it's really fast. Heavenly unforgivable acceleration, I saw 130km/h already on a single full accelerate on 70km/h zone. While the acceleration is superb, but the manual gearbox was like a dead stick, it feels really heavy to change a gear alongside the clutch. That's why I got stalled two times! :eek:

[EUR003act]

^^ you what now?

i dont like the mazda gearbox's... parents got a mazda6 and its terrible... reverse is really hard to get into...

[JDM.Power]

mps !

[sodaz]

The MPS3 is a very good car. I've driven my mate's one a few times and the rolling acceleration is awesome but there's a fair bit of torque steer from a standing start and it also plow understeers a lot around corners. The gearshift is short and accurate but notchy. It's definitely good competition for the WRX. (not quite STi/Evo level though).

[wynode]

Ive got an MPS3 with semi slicks, so the traction problem is fixed. Love it because so many people think they're inferior to the WRX but find out they were incorrect.

WRX is quicker to 100km/h purely because of its traction off the mark. The MPS3 has a higher mph at the end of the quarter and its in gear acceleration IS better than the WRX. The MP3S is a good little car....it's just that the WRX has longer history than the MP3S. The MP3S is just starting to gain a decent reputation it is really the uneducated that call it 'inferior'.

[BiLL|z0r]

Can the torque steer be reduced with suspension mods (i.e. sways, etc)

[aaronng]

Can the torque steer be reduced with suspension mods (i.e. sways, etc)
It can be reduced (but not eliminated) with suspension geometry. But not with swaybars. You can reduce torque steer using anti-lift kits, I think.

[DLRioM]

ok ok the mps3 is quick, but its just sooo ugly. I wouldnt consider it because to me the overall package of a car means more than an extra 60kw at the wheels. Sure its faster but it would have to be considering id want to get away in a hurry to avoid being seen in that car

[Feverpitched]

I think torque steer can also be reduced by playing with drive shaft lengths though I'm lead to believe it's not an easy task.

[ShAwNeX]

I've been in the SP23 but not the MPS. In terms of the SP23 then definitely not. The EURO is by far better in every aspect. I've heard a lot about the MPS for the 3 and 6, and they probably are better.

[r-r-redEuro]

mps3 over mps6, the 6 looks abit " over done " in terms of a modded mazda 6, the mps3 looks more subtle then the normal 3 which is better and i think they both have the same engine considering why the 3 is abit faster then the 6.

[acura_ek1]

i just sold my sp23 for a new euro, EURO > Sp23

[EUR003act]

spoon racing euro-r > euro-r > euro luxury > euro :thumbsup: lol

[acura_ek1]

http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/5/12/24/f_IMG2150m_e2b5890.jpg

The wheels will on the Euro soon :D waiting for sussy...

[bodaas]

i dont understand mazda where they got the idea from
making the FWD turbo, how the car handle cornering when turbo kick in?
its like suicide machine, especially for younger driver.

actually mps couldnt compare to euro
as some people said it should compare to fast car categories not family car

[aaronng]

Turbo doesn't kick in like old-skool turbos... You should drive it.

[EuroAccord13]

I think torque steer can also be reduced by playing with drive shaft lengths though I'm lead to believe it's not an easy task.

Yeap that is true because the longer shaft will actually flex more which causes the wheel to spin slower...



Can the torque steer be reduced with suspension mods (i.e. sways, etc)

Using tyres with stronger sidewalls helps to reduce torque steer besides the usual multi-link suspension setup.

[Pumped]

engrish hard

[ShAwNeX]

i dont understand mazda where they got the idea from
making the FWD turbo, how the car handle cornering when turbo kick in?
its like suicide machine, especially for younger driver.

actually mps couldnt compare to euro
as some people said it should compare to fast car categories not family car

Well the MPS 6 is a family car.

[aaronng]

actually mps couldnt compare to euro
as some people said it should compare to fast car categories not family car
And Subaru has their equivalent with the Liberty GT and Liberty 3.0R.

[bodaas]

Turbo doesn't kick in like old-skool turbos... You should drive it.

i dont get what you mean by old skool ?? have you driven it?
:cool:

[80057]

i dont get what you mean by old skool ?? have you driven it?
:cool:
in older turbo cars, when the turbo kicked in you got more power at that point, it would be alittle dangerous going out of a corner in FWD, the etc wheel spin/torque steer would make it hard to control.

newer turbos have less of that point as the spool earlier and more gradually, hence the term less turbo lag. the new MPS has very little if any turbo lag. and hence no big kick in.

i havent ever seen turbo kick cause ppl to lose it in a stock car tho, only with monster turbos the kick in later at the end of the rev range should have that much kick to cause issues.

[80057]

back to topic,

cant fit pram and shopping in MPS, so euro for me. lol

[bodaas]

in older turbo cars, when the turbo kicked in you got more power at that point, it would be alittle dangerous going out of a corner in FWD, the etc wheel spin/torque steer would make it hard to control.

newer turbos have less of that point as the spool earlier and more gradually, hence the term less turbo lag. the new MPS has very little if any turbo lag. and hence no big kick in.

i havent ever seen turbo kick cause ppl to lose it in a stock car tho, only with monster turbos the kick in later at the end of the rev range should have that much kick to cause issues.

i understand what you mean thanks for that, i can get the feeling
maybe it similar to audi a4 turbo
i have seen this car really worse handling during corner, it oversteer