Quad T/B's Vs Single T/B + Manifold

[Jarkz]

Say I had a B16a with light N/A mods ONLY (cams, header, cat-back).

What would make the best low to midrange power increase?

A) B16a/B18c OEM, or after-market manifold + larger T/B fiitted to a J's/Injen/AEM etc styled CAI/SRI's?


B) The above manifolds listed + larger T/B fitted to a Mugen/Comptech/ARC etc styled performance Air-box's?


C) 48mm or 50mm TMW / EFI hardware etc QTB's?

What would be the reccomend/average QTB trumpet size for a B16a?

If QTB's are a more power productive system compared to STB manifold/intakes, why hasn't Honda applied this to there high end production motors, like Toyota, BMW and others have :confused:

Are after-market QTB's ridiculously throttle snappy/sensitive or can this be adjusted a little to suit road use?

Lastly... Which header would suit QTB's the best 4 - 1 or 4 - 2 - 1?

[Jarkz]

Please move to All motor or technical section by the looks of it?

[TheSaint]

im interested to know the same answers now =)

ive never seen ITB connected to a CAI system... curious

[xtercii]

wtf...ITB = individual throttle body, QBT = quad throttle body, they are the same thing...

[markoJEK1]

^ haha my thoughts exactly

[IZY-10]

lol quad meaning four and since they are 4 cylinder engines itbs mean it will have four throttle bodies

[aaronng]

Same thing.... Stays in the noob section for now until we find out what he wants to achieve. CAI with ITB!?!?!?!

[mikul_ha]

cai/sri with itb via surge tank?

[aaronng]

cai/sri with itb via surge tank?

Then it becomes a normal road-legal ITB setup like what BMW uses with their M3 and M5.

[koj]

ive never seen ITB connected to a CAI system... curious

http://www.terato.com/cars/Cararchive/starlet/P1060728.jpg

#1 - you can run a hood scoop and have 4 small pod filters

or

#2 - keep the box over the quads, no filters, run a pipe from the housing box through the engine bay, down the guard, and sucking in through the bar / removed fog covers

[aaronng]

I'd put a big pod at the end of the pipe though.

[cristian]

Then it becomes a normal road-legal ITB setup like what BMW uses with their M3 and M5.

isn't this like the set up they have on the 4AGE motors used on AE111 Levins?!?

stock silvertop
http://got-jdm.com/images/4age.jpg

blacktop with filter directly on the surge tank opening and a flexi pipe for the cold air
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/MikeKench/4AGE.jpg

[cristian]

ahh damn...beat me to it...

[sendok]

Then it becomes a normal road-legal ITB setup like what BMW uses with their M3 and M5.

So aaronng, if it's ITB using a cover *filter* is that included in legal?

[Jarkz]

I asked these question for a number of reasons.

1. If QTB are a better power making source compared to ITB manifolds and associated pefromace intakes, why hasn't honda applied this to say a B16/B18K20/K24 or even a D series for that matter from the factory?

2. I'm after feed back from people who have tried both QTB and say a Skunk2manifold with a performance intake. What achieved that best low-mid range power as i've said before?

3. Are all QTB throttle snappy/sensitive like most people say & not the best option for road use?

4. If I go the QTB route, would a 4-1 or 4-2-1 header suit a lightly modded B16a motor as I aslo mentioned?

I'm not interested in what makes the most power... But what inlet/intake would give the best low - mid torque.

[rayb3na_]

1. cos its bloody expensive

2. itb is blingage!

3. require constant tuning

4. 4-2-1, 4-1 is used for top end.

my opinion i may be wrong and i'll be glady corrected by anybody thats just my thoughts =]

[z3lda]

please define QTB and ITB as no one knows what ur talkin about

[Jarkz]

1. cos its bloody expensive

2. itb is blingage!

3. require constant tuning

4. 4-2-1, 4-1 is used for top end.

my opinion i may be wrong and i'll be glady corrected by anybody thats just my thoughts =]

Itb is blingage? I think u meant QTB's... I don't consider them blingage or want them (possibly) for that reason.

So with cams and QTB's your saying a 4 -2 -1 would make the best mid-low power gains... I thought so too but considering those 2 items fitted I thought I would ask.

[koj]

I'd put a big pod at the end of the pipe though.

damn straight

[koj]

http://www.tzywen.com/photos/misc/ae111-01.jpg

with custom scoop, rs liberty or ae101 gtz rolla scoop?

[Jarkz]

please define QTB and ITB as no one knows what ur talkin about

QTB = Quad throttle bodies.

ITB = Individual throttle body.

lol.

[Chi]

http://www.mandm-honda.com/dc5_0273_031.jpg

TODA Makes a ITB kit for K series.

[bungsai]

QTB = Quad throttle bodies.

ITB = Individual throttle body.

lol.

but QTB = ITB on all Honda 4 Cylinder engines?

[Jarkz]

but QTB = ITB on all Honda 4 Cylinder engines?


True... a they both do the same purpose (draw air into the engine)

1) QTB have 4 individual throttle bodies/butterlys and a sort lenghted manifold runner.

2) ITB has has 1 individual throttle body/butterfly and a long runner with a chambered throttle housing.

Which is the better perfomance intake arrangment?

Lastly I know Toda and others make QTB's for Honda, but why aren't they fitted by Honda from the factory?

And I doubt production cost issuses would be the answer...???

[markoJEK1]

... I dont see how you dont understand taht QTB AND ITB is the SAME thing , quad meaning 4, honda has 4 cylinders, you put ITB on there, each cylinder has its own, in total been 4 throttle bodies just like quads . . Only different thing I can see you referring to is the different designs, some have housing on them to act as a planium while others just have uni filters

[markoJEK1]

PS If you want to apply them to your setup, I would recommend a good ecu, cams, and a good tuner. to actually gain power from the application

[aaronng]

1) QTB have 4 individual throttle bodies/butterlys and a sort lenghted manifold runner.

2) ITB has has 1 individual throttle body/butterfly and a long runner with a chambered throttle housing.

You don't call ITB a "1 individual throttle body/butterfly". That's just a regular 1 throttle body setup with a custom housing.

ITB = QTB. Heck, I don't think that there are many people that refer to 4 throttle bodies on a 4-cyl engine as QTB. It has always been ITB.

[aaronng]

So aaronng, if it's ITB using a cover *filter* is that included in legal?
Depends on the cop that checks you. In a similar situation, exposed pod filters in the engine bay are illegal in NSW, yet just putting an enclosure around it allowed me to pass inspection. So on that basis, it should be similar that an enclosed ITB setup pass inspection just because the inspector doesn't realise that the engine has been modified with an ITB setup.

[markoJEK1]

^ with saying that Aaron, I think Jarks is refering to the different filtration setups, saying that an enclosed setup is QUAD THROTTLE BODIES and an open setup with filters on them are INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES, but in the end its in the disgression of the owner in which type of filtration he wants to use. In the end discard the filtration and its the same thing Jarks , QTB or ITB the desing is exactly the same

[cristian]

ITB's and QTB's are exactly the same coz of the given circumstances that we all (or most of us) drive 4cyl motors...

this C30 on the other is a honda motor that has ITB's but is no longer a QTB...
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exhaust_airflow_products/NSX/ScienceofSpeed/individual_throttle_bodies/assy-800.jpg

[markoJEK1]

^ yes thats the only factor, majority of hondas are 4 cylinders, so when you refer to quads or itb's the automatic thought repsonse is 4

[bungsai]

Jarkz to clarify. Afaik Individual throttle body is a confusing term, and does NOT mean that there is only ONE INDIVIDUAL throttle body for the engine, rather there is ONE INDIVIDUAL throttle body PER CYLINDER.

therefore with a 4 cylinder ITB's = Quad TB's.

With a 6 cylinder engine with ITB's you will have SIX INDIVIDUAL throttle bodies.

[Feverpitched]

Jarkz, seriously...

It's like asking whether they're rims or mags. QTB, ITB, OTB (oct throttle bodies, hmm..) are the same. The setup you're referring to with a single throttle body at the entrance to a plenum feeding individual runners is called, funnily enough, a single throttle body setup. No catchy names there.

OP, you're aware that ITB's are designed for throttle response and better performance at high rpm? You can 'tune' them for low/mid range by using a longer trumpet stack but that's about it. The purpose of having 4 smaller butterflies in lieu of one big one is:

1. Immediate throttle response, as the throttles control the air for one cylinder only, and
2. Better WOT performance, as each butterfly at WOT flows more air than a large single.

You didn't just read about these things in Autosalon magazine by any chance did you?

[rayb3na_]

oks lemme clear up something with you ITB and QTB is the same thing. you would need a pretty worked head to get big gains from itbs im tlaking about worked. otherwise focus on internal work first itbs is big money. itbs u get better reponse.. thats mainly it u dont get significat power gains.

[rpm boy]

Ok on the basis that your refering to itb being a single on the plenium and qtb being quads, quads will give u way better response and will in turn let u get more power due to qtb's letting you tune your car to a more precisly... although the fuel gauge will be forever on E

[Bludger]

Gti-R pulsar has ITb's

never heard of QTb's

so n00b

[TheSaint]

i would get ITBs just for the response factor, i dont care about big power either but i do enjoy the way the car drives, im not saying that i dont care about power enough to go down to a D series motor but if u have i had a B or a K it would be enough for me to start off with, the main thing i enjoyed tuning up when i had my B18c was the response down low - to get it to mid-top end quicker

is it possible to have ITB with quad pod filters in an enclosure that joins to a scoop when the bonnet closes, so it looks like its something stock and wont draw attention, kind of like the scoop systems for intercoolders how some have a rubber seal that fits onto the top mount intercooler?

[Jarkz]

OMG.

Where sort of getting somewhere...

Forget about filtration/intake for a minute.

And forget the terms ITB & QTB... though it's not that hard to get your head around.

Look at this pic:

http://www.tzywen.com/photos/misc/ae111-01.jpg

I see a short runner - trumpets and there are 4 small throttle bodies connected straight to the short trumpets/runner.


Then look at this pic:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2m6mrtx.jpg

I see a long runner - manifold that leads into an expansion chamber that has 1 single large throttle body attached to that expansion chamber.


(And yes I know some quads have a expansion chamber attached also like GTiR, i used to work at Nissan)


OK....


Now think of flow.


*quads ( 4 short runners/trumpets, & 4 small operational T/B's - butterflys)


*Conventional intake manifold ( 4 long runners, an expansion chamber & 1 large operational T/B - butterfly.


I know which one has a shorter air path to travel & in theory net the best performance gains.

But why does Honda chose to use a conventional intake manifold instead of using quads?

[markoJEK1]

All your looking there at is a aftermarket intake manifold might be even a standard one someone correct me if im wrong, the point is what your talking about is a standard intake manifold nothing to do with quads/itbs ..

*But why does Honda chose to use a conventional intake manifold instead of using quads?*

.. They use manifolds that look exactly like the one in the second picture, each cylinder has its own runner but they all run off 1 Throttle Body dont know how to make it any clearer

[Jarkz]

All your looking there at is a aftermarket intake manifold might be even a standard one someone correct me if im wrong, the point is what your talking about is a standard intake manifold nothing to do with quads/itbs ..

*But why does Honda chose to use a conventional intake manifold instead of using quads?*

.. They use manifolds that look exactly like the one in the second picture, each cylinder has its own runner but they all run off 1 Throttle Body dont know how to make it any clearer

OMG

yes that is a standard 1 (one) T/B K20 inlet manifold.

Why ain't there 4 (four) T/B's Quads.

[markoJEK1]

Like mentioned earlier, its more expensive for the manufaturer, you need internal head work atleast to be able to gain some sort of again from the ITBs and a good tune which requires a aftermarket ecu, so if you eliminate all these costs, then the manufacturers would bring them out as a standard item, that the answer you're looking for?

[Bludger]

OMG.

Where sort of getting somewhere...

Forget about filtration/intake for a minute.

And forget the terms ITB & QTB... though it's not that hard to get your head around.

Look at this pic:

http://www.tzywen.com/photos/misc/ae111-01.jpg

I see a short runner - trumpets and there are 4 small throttle bodies connected straight to the short trumpets/runner.


Then look at this pic:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2m6mrtx.jpg

I see a long runner - manifold that leads into an expansion chamber that has 1 single large throttle body attached to that expansion chamber.


(And yes I know some quads have a expansion chamber attached also like GTiR, i used to work at Nissan)


OK....


Now think of flow.


*quads ( 4 short runners/trumpets, & 4 small operational T/B's - butterflys)


*Conventional intake manifold ( 4 long runners, an expansion chamber & 1 large operational T/B - butterfly.


I know which one has a shorter air path to travel & in theory net the best performance gains.

But why does Honda chose to use a conventional intake manifold instead of using quads? Where sort of getting somewhere...

We're sort of getting somewhere...

correction :p




Why doesn't Honda, just use the best technology of everything to blow the other car makers into oblivion????????

the second pic you posted, is just a conventional intake manifold, so quit with the ITB's and QTB's

LOL

[Jarkz]

Where sort of getting somewhere...

We're sort of getting somewhere...

correction :p




Why doesn't Honda, just use the best technology of everything to blow the other car makers into oblivion????????

the second pic you posted, is just a conventional intake manifold, so quit with the ITB's and QTB's

LOL

I said forget about ITB QTB or can't you read.

Yes it would be great if Honda stepped up to the Likes of Toyota , Nissan , BWW, ferrari & others with factory Quad Throttle Bodies.

But they use a conventional inlet manifold.

Why?

Is it a more power productive unit?

[markoJEK1]

Like mentioned earlier, its more expensive for the manufaturer, you need internal head work atleast to be able to gain some sort of again from the ITBs and a good tune which requires a aftermarket ecu, so if you eliminate all these costs, then the manufacturers would bring them out as a standard item, that the answer you're looking for?

^ my god did you read what I wrote or you completely ignored it and that question is so pointless dont know why you keep asking, if its bugging you that much ring up honda and ask them

[aaronng]

OMG

yes that is a standard 1 (one) T/B K20 inlet manifold.

Why ain't there 4 (four) T/B's Quads.

Cost, pride that they can achieve 100hp/L without ITB, and to give the tuning market something to fiddle with.

[Jarkz]

Like mentioned earlier, its more expensive for the manufaturer, you need internal head work atleast to be able to gain some sort of again from the ITBs and a good tune which requires a aftermarket ecu, so if you eliminate all these costs, then the manufacturers would bring them out as a standard item, that the answer you're looking for?

I cant see Toyota or BMW having a lager budget than Honda to be able to fund quads on their production cars.

I don't see M3's or GTiR's etc with a bad factory tune due to quads?

[aaronng]

I cant see Toyota or BMW having a lager budget than Honda to be able to fund quads on their production cars.

I don't see M3's or GTiR's etc with a bad factory tune due to quads?

Toyota's 4A-GE 20V was not cheap to produce. That's why it was used only in a few models.

[dupac->]

LOL@ the confusion.

where's the fun in everything if this all came stock from factory?

it's not like they're trying to build a super car.

always more room for improvement once it's left the Honda factory.

ring peter warren honda 02 9828 8133 and ask them lol.

[Bludger]

I said forget about ITB QTB or can't you read.

Yes it would be great if Honda stepped up to the Likes of Toyota , Nissan , BWW, ferrari & others with factory Quad Throttle Bodies.

But they use a conventional inlet manifold.

Why?

Is it a more power productive unit?zomg

you're so clueless

why didn't you also ask, why is the sky blue???

[dupac->]

why didn't they come out boosted? that's more of a power productive unit?

[cristian]

here's the confusion...

the title says: Qtb - Vs - Itb

but what Jarkz wants to know is... "why isn't honda following suit with the other manufacturers and using ITB's from factory"

[dupac->]

lol cristian im sure everyones catching on with wat the title says or meant.

but it's questions that no one would know on WHY they didnt do this and that from factory.

Jarkz is only going to get assumptions on why this didnt happen

[Jarkz]

Cost, pride that they can achieve 100hp/L without ITB, and to give the tuning market something to fiddle with.

Ok...

But it would be nice if they threw them on from the factory so I don't have to buy them ;)

Lastly... I'm not trying to flame Honda or anything... I <3 them, & why im here on this site.

but i'm so surprised they have never put quads on form the factory, for there own R&D purposes etc or to create even more power on the excellent motors they provide.

[markoJEK1]

^ that is true, and partial confusion comes from him believing that quads and itbs are 2 different things ontop of the question he opposes

[Bludger]

why didn't Honda just put a v20 in the civic, that would beat any car

imagine how much power it would have

even better

a 20 cylinder with 20 turbo's

one for each cylinder

**** the ITB's

that would be heaps better

[dupac->]

lol.. if you had ITB's from a factory honda.. so would everyone else..

then you'll probably go back to the aftermarket Intake Manifold and cai/sri way of things and tune it differntly

LOL

[Jarkz]

zomg

you're so clueless

why didn't you also ask, why is the sky blue???

Cause i know that answer.

Anyway can I pinch a winne off ya.

[dupac->]

Jarkz what's R&D?

lol there's enough confusion with terminlogy on here already just want to be clear on what R&D is
lol

[Bludger]

lol

i'm having one right now:D

chain smoke ftw

[cristian]

Ok...

But it would be nice if they threw them on from the factory so I don't have to buy them ;)

Lastly... I'm not trying to flame Honda or anything... I <3 them, & why im here on this site.

but i'm so surprised they have never put quads on form the factory, for there own R&D purposes etc or to create even more power on the excellent motors the provide.

i think it's coz of honda's tunability...so much supporting parts out there...

through out the honda gens they've always gone with designing interchangable parts...single throttle body + manifold = cheaper = more affordable = marketable...

[aaronng]

Ok...

But it would be nice if they threw them on from the factory so I don't have to buy them ;)

Lastly... I'm not trying to flame Honda or anything... I <3 them, & why im here on this site.

but i'm so surprised they have never put quads on form the factory, for there own R&D purposes etc or to create even more power on the excellent motors the provide.
Yes, it would be nice, but then people would be bored of the car since there are no more avenues for tuning.

What's the difference if they threw it in from factory or not? You still end up paying an extra cost in the purchase price of the vehicle. So if you want it now, just go and buy a set.

Honda vehicles are designed as daily drivers, even for the NSX. So it is a balance between cost, drivability, noise and performance.

[Jarkz]

lol.. if you had ITB's from a factory honda.. so would everyone else..

then you'll probably go back to the aftermarket Intake Manifold and cai/sri way of things and tune it differntly

LOL


Exactly... which makes more low - mid power on a B16a

Aftermarket inlet manifold with lager T/B + CAI/SRI

Or

Quads?

[Bludger]

Exactly... which makes more low - mid power on a B16a

Aftermarket inlet manifold with lager T/B + CAI/SRI

Or

Quads?lol

this is such a pointless thread :p

[Jarkz]

lol

this is such a pointless thread :p

lol. if you read my previous post thats what I asked.

Still waiting on feedback from other who have played with a B16a
and tried both aftermarket intake manifold + lager T/B & also fitted quads.

Im not after which of the two makes the most outright power, but increases low-mid torque.

[cristian]

lol. if you read my previous post thats what I asked.

Still waiting on feedback from other who have played with a B16a
and tried both aftermarket intake manifold + lager T/B & also fitted quads.

Im not after which of the two makes the most outright power, but increases low-mid torque.

i rekon an intake manifold + larger TB + centrifugal SC will give u all the torque increase n response u need on a b16

[dupac->]

well atm im running after market intake manifold with slightly larger tb.. sitting with a cai.. down bottom is pretty shit house.
but up top i cant complain.

[Jarkz]

i rekon an intake manifold + larger TB + centrifugal SC will give u all the torque increase n response u need on a b16

True but i want to keep it N/A.

[dupac->]

but its also combined with a 2.5 cat back and 4-1 headers.. so i was kinda looking more top end power.. so it suited me ok..

looking at to change to sri to see how it goes.

but with the different IM and TB response isnt that great along with the others mods. im used to it.. i like it how it is.

[cristian]

hmm...keep the intake as it is...change the block to a b20...

mmmmmm

[dupac->]

narh i wanna keep the stock b16a. im keeping the cai but gonna see what the fuss is about velocity stacks hehe

see how it goes.

[Jarkz]

but its also combined with a 2.5 cat back and 4-1 headers.. so i was kinda looking more top end power.. so it suited me ok..

looking at to change to sri to see how it goes.

but with the different IM and TB response isnt that great along with the others mods. im used to it.. i like it how it is.

Cool... thanks for feedback dupac :thumbsup:

In my experience SRI helps low - mid power & throttle response.

CAI helped mid - high power.


*people with aftermarket air-box's like mugen or comptech etc, do they give the best of both worlds?

*people with quads where did it change the power curve the most? ( low - mid - high )?

[cristian]

Cool... thanks for feedback dupac :thumbsup:

In my experience SRI helps low - mid power & throttle response.

CAI helped mid - high power.

Anybody with quads????

where did it change the power curve the most? ( low - mid - high )

And what headers suited quads power curve the best.

ask this dude...

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82318

[NSPYRE]

if u want better low-mid end go for a stroker kit

[Jarkz]

Jarkz what's R&D?

lol there's enough confusion with terminlogy on here already just want to be clear on what R&D is
lol

R&D = Research & development.

[Jarkz]

Honda vehicles are designed as daily drivers, even for the NSX. So it is a balance between cost, drivability, noise and performance.



So an M3, or Levin is not sold & marketed as a daily driver?

If cost where such a great issue why is the VTEC system on there motors?

I've driven a GTiR... Noise...? drivability...? went alright for me...?

If quads where fitted to the Type R range i couldn't see it dampening any sales at all :confused:

I know if i read the factory spec sheets with VTEC + Quad throttle intake, i'd be doing backflips :thumbsup:

[markoJEK1]

wow how ignorant can you get, honda made their cars the way they are for a reason end of story, stop comparing it with others

[TheSaint]

can anyone approach my questions?

[koj]

jarkz = lostie

[aaronng]

No matter what we say, he will just turn it around and go "why can't Honda do it like xxx-manufacturer".

[Nepolian]

JarkZ, you can count the amount of cars which have come out from the factory with ITB's in one hand. So dont go talking like it is a common factory item.

We can go on all night and day, why isnt a 4 kg flywheel std in all Hondas, why doesnt Honda have Toda Spec C cams in all Tyre R's.???

Jarks, have you driven a N/A car with ITB's?

[TheFranchise]

If quads where fitted to the Type R range i couldn't see it dampening any sales at all :confused:



If quads WERE fitted to the Type R range Honda would NOT have sold them for the price they did.....the extra cost involved in parts and tuning would have been fowarded to the consumer (us)....pretty sure this would have affected sales numbers somewhat.

[Jarkz]

wow how ignorant can you get, honda made their cars the way they are for a reason end of story, stop comparing it with others

Take my posts what ever way you want.

This isn't a debate about X car having quads and X car not having them???

Do you see me posting other car manufatures in this thread.

I was after some positive feedback as to what others have done & suggest which is the best approach for me to gain low - mid tourqe.

I have my answer... thank you H-T.

As I said I <3 Honda.

I'm also a car enthusiast.

[T-onedc2]

But why does Honda chose to use a conventional intake manifold instead of using quads?
Aside from cost factor, ITB's are great for top end and response, while longer intake runners are better for low rpm, Honda wouldn't compromise so much and choose just one so they find the best compromise.

Also keep in mind that BMW engines with ITB's fitted are 3.2l + in capacity so bottom end torque is not a big issue.

[Bludger]

someone once had in teir signature:

"don't arguy with n00bs, cos they will bring you down to their level and own you with experience"

[Jarkz]

Aside from cost factor, ITB's are great for top end and response, while longer intake runners are better for low rpm, Honda wouldn't compromise so much and choose just one so they find the best compromise.

Also keep in mind that BMW engines with ITB's fitted are 3.2l + in capacity so bottom end torque is not a big issue.

Thank you... if only "you" commented earlier.

[Jarkz]

someone once had in teir signature:

"don't arguy with n00bs, cos they will bring you down to their level and own you with experience"

Are you gay or something... stop stalking me & my posts lol

[SeverAMV]

depends on what you want.
quad tb will lead to greater mid to top end response.
single tb with plenum will lead to greater top end response (more than itb setup) and will create more power.
or you can get a nice quad barrel carburetor setup and get a beefier low-midrange to top end response and power similar/potentially greater than that of an itb setup.

[Jarkz]

^ :thumbsup: