spark plugs

[Shimian]

Hey,

What can go wrong when changing to aftermarket spark plugs? I dont mean as in installing it incorrectly.

cheers

[aaronng]

Your plugs are aftermarket. Honda doesn't make spark plugs. They use either NGK or Denso iridium.

[Limbo]

If you use the wrong plugs you usually have;
- startup problems
- may get premature ignition/detonation
- car may not start
- fuel economy goes crazy
- car drives/ idles funny

Effects? can case engine damage or just be a pain in the A$$

[teh_mechanic]

as said,even honda uses aftermarket plugs.

just make sure you get the right model number of plug,examples (these are not for your car,unless im phsycic) - bkr5es,bpr6ey
getting the wrong one will give you different heat range (the number in the model number) or different thread or length....all bad things

[Shimian]

yes sorry, i meant to say stock spark plugs not aftermarket.
cheers guys

[Shimian]

Just wondering if anyone has experienced BRISK Premium LGS? Looking to install some on my FD2

[Limbo]

Stick with the known brands.
NGK, Denso, Bosch.

They have performance ranges also

[FastFwd]

I know for a Fact that you shouldnt Use Octain booster (any kind) on NGK Iridium plugs for honda. It will just make the plugs fail and u will need new ones.

[dsp26]

I know for a Fact that you shouldnt Use Octain booster (any kind) on NGK Iridium plugs for honda. It will just make the plugs fail and u will need new ones.

serious question... please elaborate? curious how it fouls the plugs

I use nulon octane booster once every 3-6months with my BKR6EIX-11s gapped beyond the 11 (1.1mm)


and will this 'fouling' be the same if i used those octane booster tablets? those things are good enough even to bump maybe 2oct on the std 92oct considering 95/98oct shortage.... and ~$25 for octane booster enough for one tank ain't worth the ~7oct gain....

[EuroDude]

Same, Ive used octane booster in the civic and euro, no problems at all.

Just get the stock sparkplugs from honda designed for your car. If you want ones that last longer or perform better, make sure you buy the correct size and heat range, and ensure the spark gap is measured properly using a gap gauge to the specs honda recommend.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:-exYhXh_BgXeEM:http://www.0-1320feet.com/Tech/SparkPlugs/SparkPlugGappingTool.jpg

[FastFwd]

Well i actually dont know the scientifics behind it but after i rebuilt my motor with all the forgies etc, i could only run 98 octain so was about 3 months later i was at the petrol station and there was no 98 left, next petrol station the same, then the same and the same again. by that time i had no fuel to go the the fifth station so i filled up on 95 and filled up with octain booster (later to realise WA was out of 98, this was when BP only carried it). anyways driving home was ok, the next morning the car wouldnt idle properly and i couldnt rev it to over 3-4 or else it would just die... Took me a couple days to figure out, but one of my mates that past away used to work for honda North in perth so i asked him and he told me that honda's run a little hotter than other cars and something to do with the chemical reaction with the Heat, Octain booster and the Iridium plugs. Dont know exactly what but it just ruins them

Worse thing about the whole experience was that iridium set of 4 plugs costs around 60-70 bucks. I had only put new ones in 3 days before this happened. So i had to go out and spend another 60+ dollars again.

Been told by a few people also that octain booster isnt the cleanest thing for your engine and shouldnt be used. I havent used it since anyways.

[SeverAMV]

if you switch to plugs that are too cold, your engine may not start properly and you may actually lose power because the fuel will ignite too late.

but roughly, for every 50-100hp extra your car has over stock, you should go down one temp range (colder plug), or go down if your motor is pinging.

[Shimian]

Ok, if i stick to Denso, will the Iridium Power IK20L be ok for FD2?

cheers

[SeverAMV]

Spark plug heat range has no effect on when they fire hence NO EFFECT on when the fuel will ignite. Heat range is only about the temperature of the spark plug tip.;)

heat range doesnt affect when it will fire, but can cause misfire, the tip is often where the mixture makes a fair bit of contact with when the af mixture enters the cylinder. sparkies at too high a temp for too long can cause preignition and hence detonation, which is why we change to diff temp range in the spark plug, which is also why changing to a lower temp range can fix pinging.

spark plugs have to be of the correct temperature range so they can spread the right amount of heat at the right time to ignite the entire mixture. if the spark is too weak, you'll find that most of the mixture wont ignite as easily, and will ignite later, despite ignition timing.

if this werent true, then why isnt everyone just running the lowest temperature range available?

[aaronng]

heat range doesnt affect when it will fire, but can cause misfire, the tip is often where the mixture makes a fair bit of contact with when the af mixture enters the cylinder. sparkies at too high a temp for too long can cause preignition and hence detonation, which is why we change to diff temp range in the spark plug, which is also why changing to a lower temp range can fix pinging.

spark plugs have to be of the correct temperature range so they can spread the right amount of heat at the right time to ignite the entire mixture. if the spark is too weak, you'll find that most of the mixture wont ignite as easily, and will ignite later, despite ignition timing.

if this werent true, then why isnt everyone just running the lowest temperature range available?
Not true. Spark strength does not depend on heat. The reason why everyone doesn't run the lowest temperature is because if the spark plug tip is not hot enough, you will get deposits on the tip.

[SeverAMV]

Not true. Spark strength does not depend on heat. The reason why everyone doesn't run the lowest temperature is because if the spark plug tip is not hot enough, you will get deposits on the tip.

rawr, my email notification tells me you originally posted timing. i didnt mean the spark plug misfires, i meant that the heat of the plug can cause premature ignition.

true that spark strength does not depend on heat, but heat helps spread the flame quicker, even if only a little bit. and spark plug tip not being hot enough isnt the only reason you'll get deposit on tips, spark strength being too weak can cause it as well, as can running too rich.

[RtN]

If you get the correct spark plug i.e BKR6EIX-11 for my EM1.. aren't they pre-gapped to my specific need? Just plug and play isn't it?


By EuroDude

Just get the stock sparkplugs from honda designed for your car. If you want ones that last longer or perform better, make sure you buy the correct size and heat range, and ensure the spark gap is measured properly using a gap gauge to the specs honda recommend.

[dsp26]

If you get the correct spark plug i.e BKR6EIX-11 for my EM1.. aren't they pre-gapped to my specific need? Just plug and play isn't it?

no.. the 11 at the end depicst a 1.1mm gap.. afaik B series is supposed to be 0.9mm??

but who cares, i tell everyone its fine.. i've run the oem coil up to 1.3mm no probs on various loads, ambient temp (summer) and gearing

[EuroDude]

lol so many conflicting theories.. Wiki ftw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_plug


Heat range:
-------------------------------------------------

The operating temperature of a spark plug is the actual physical temperature at the tip of the spark plug within the running engine. This is determined by a number of factors, but primarily the actual temperature within the combustion chamber. There is no direct relationship between the actual operating temperature of the spark plug and spark voltage. However, the level of torque currently being produced by the engine will strongly influence spark plug operating temperature because the maximum temperature and pressure occurs when the engine is operating near peak torque output (torque and RPM directly determine the power output). The temperature of the insulator responds to the thermal conditions it is exposed to in the combustion chamber but not vice versa. If the tip of the spark plug is too hot it can cause pre-ignition leading to detonation/knocking and damage may occur. If it is too cold, electrically conductive deposits may form on the insulator causing a loss of spark energy or the actual shorting-out of the spark current.

A spark plug is said to be "hot" if it is a better heat insulator, keeping more heat in the tip of the spark plug. A spark plug is said to be "cold" if it can conduct more heat out of the spark plug tip and lower the tip's temperature. Whether a spark plug is "hot" or "cold" is known as the heat range of the spark plug. The heat range of a spark plug is typically specified as a number, with some manufacturers using ascending numbers for hotter plugs and others doing the opposite, using ascending numbers for colder plugs.

The heat range of a spark plug (i.e. in scientific terms its thermal conductivity characteristics) is affected by the construction of the spark plug: the types of materials used, the length of insulator and the surface area of the plug exposed within the combustion chamber. For normal use, the selection of a spark plug heat range is a balance between keeping the tip hot enough at idle to prevent fouling and cold enough at maximum power to prevent pre-ignition leading to engine knocking. By examining "hotter" and "cooler" spark plugs of the same manufacturer side by side, the principle involved can be very clearly seen; the cooler plugs have more substantial ceramic insulators filling the gap between the center electrode and the shell, effectively carrying off the heat, while the hotter plugs have less ceramic material, so that the tip is more isolated from the body of the plug and retains heat better.

Heat from the combustion chamber escapes through the exhaust gases, the side walls of the cylinder and the spark plug itself. The heat range of a spark plug has only a minute effect on combustion chamber and overall engine temperature. A cold plug will not materially cool down an engine's running temperature. (Too hot of a plug may, however, indirectly lead to a runaway pre-ignition condition that can increase engine temperature.) Rather, the main effect of a "hot" or "cold" plug is to affect the temperature of the tip of the spark plug.

It was common before the modern era of computerized fuel injection to specify at least a couple of different heat ranges for plugs for an automobile engine; a hotter plug for cars which were mostly driven mildly around the city, and a colder plug for sustained high speed highway use. This practice has, however, largely become obsolete now that cars' fuel/air mixtures and cylinder temperatures are maintained within a narrow range, for purposes of limiting emissions. Racing engines, however, still benefit from picking a proper plug heat range. Very old racing engines will sometimes have two sets of plugs, one just for starting and another to be installed once the engine is warmed up, for actually driving the car.




The main issues with spark plug gaps are:
-------------------------------------------------

* narrow-gap risk: spark might be too weak/small to ignite fuel;
* narrow-gap benefit: plug always fires on each cycle;
* wide-gap risk: plug might not fire, or miss at high speeds;
* wide-gap benefit: spark is strong for a clean burn.

[dsp26]

Eurodude.. part you highlighted in bold makes sense.

Sooo... we all know that running too rich fouls plugs and the O2 sensor also evident from that statement.. so we can agree that octane booster has nothing to do with fouling plugs....

FastFwd: in your case it seems more like a tuning issue as from your description there was no proof or proven discovery that the plugs were fouled.. it seems to me that your car was tuned maybe specifically on 98oct hence it not running correctly on the 95 with oct booster?

[dsp26]

However one thing it didn't cover which is what i'm curious on... thermal conductivity is mentioned, but what about electrical conductivity of the electrode depending on the temp of the ceramic insulator?

Look at Water and oil temp sensors.. their merely solid pieces of metal that increase/decrease the voltage going through them depending on temp... it in turn modifies the return signal/voltage back to ecu/guages...

[Limbo]

fouling generally come from your car running rich.

FF - i know your car is boosted and that would mean that your can was tuned for a specific octane rating. Boosted cars are also running generally richer, to ensure it does not deontate, so end of the day excess richness of fuel is killing your plugs. The higher octane is only increasing it. I think your's is specific to your car, that's why no-one else has experienced it.

If you got your car tuned with those plugs you should be fine

[aaronng]

However one thing it didn't cover which is what i'm curious on... thermal conductivity is mentioned, but what about electrical conductivity of the electrode depending on the temp of the ceramic insulator?

Look at Water and oil temp sensors.. their merely solid pieces of metal that increase/decrease the voltage going through them depending on temp... it in turn modifies the return signal/voltage back to ecu/guages...
Temperature sensors use a thermocouple. The electrode is a full conductor.

[aaronng]

no.. the 11 at the end depicst a 1.1mm gap.. afaik B series is supposed to be 0.9mm??

but who cares, i tell everyone its fine.. i've run the oem coil up to 1.3mm no probs on various loads, ambient temp (summer) and gearing

Depends on the engine, but NGK's website says 1.1mm for the EM1.

[Shimian]

damn, look at what ive started :p
I only want to know if the Iridiums IK20L would fit my FD2 :zip:

[dsp26]

"However one thing it didn't cover which is what i'm curious on... thermal conductivity is mentioned, but what about electrical conductivity of the electrode depending on the temp of the ceramic insulator?"

Insulators have NO ELECTRICAL CONDUCTIVITY that's why they are called insulators. And insulator temperature has no effect on electrical conductivity of the electrode they are insulating ... unless you cool them down to close to absolute zero ... and that's very hard to do inside the combustion chamber.

yeah i know.. but what i'm getting at is that the ceramic is what retains any heat that is created by the combustion process.. it would transfer heat to the electrode that sits inside it... surely it also affects the conductivity of the electrode even by a poofteenth of a difference...

small issue.. like i said, curiousity...

[gReY-oNe]

If you use the wrong plugs you usually have;
- startup problems
- may get premature ignition/detonation
- car may not start
- fuel economy goes crazy
- car drives/ idles funny

Effects? can case engine damage or just be a pain in the A$$

just wondering if another effect of wrong plugs could be no fuel delivery?

seems my plugs fail every 3000kms
or goes shanky cos the fuel seems to be "choking"

[aaronng]

just wondering if another effect of wrong plugs could be no fuel delivery?

seems my plugs fail every 3000kms
or goes shanky cos the fuel seems to be "choking"

Shouldn't be.... the fuel pump runs off a separate circuit, and the injectors are located in the intake manifold anyway, not in the cylinder head.

[aaronng]

Then think again which part of the plug is closest to the heat generated by the combustion process and therefore gets the hottest... the ground electrode and the center electrode not the insulator. If anything the center electrode would be trying to dissipate it's excess heat into the insulator not the other way around.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Without work done, heat travels from a zone of high temperature to a zone of lower temperature, not the other way around.

[Limbo]

just wondering if another effect of wrong plugs could be no fuel delivery?

seems my plugs fail every 3000kms
or goes shanky cos the fuel seems to be "choking"


Effects of boost, running too rich, fouls the plugs real quick.
That's why most boosted car run copper plugs and change them very often.
I rem my old car killed the platinum ones in under 2,000km.
If you get the car tuned for the plugs you shouldn't have as much issue though.

Yeah as arrong said, fuel is different, but your prob not sparkign the fuel due to your plugs fouling and its flooding the engine

[aaronng]

^^ Yeah, I misunderstood her post too. But I agree, run too rich and the plugs foul up. The reason for running rich is to protect the engine from preignition, but that means that you need colder plugs, which end up fouling quicker. What boost pressure are you running? Reduce it slightly, which means you shouldn't need to run as rich and you can also go to a slightly cooler plug.

[FastFwd]

Eurodude.. part you highlighted in bold makes sense.

FastFwd: in your case it seems more like a tuning issue as from your description there was no proof or proven discovery that the plugs were fouled.. it seems to me that your car was tuned maybe specifically on 98oct hence it not running correctly on the 95 with oct booster?


Nah thats not the case, i have run 95 before without octane and it worked fine. It was specifically the plugs. they wernt fouled the tips almost looked white. The oct booster apparently leaves a residue in the tip of the irridium metal or something i dunno. But it deff was the plugs. not the fuel

[gReY-oNe]

Effects of boost, running too rich, fouls the plugs real quick.
That's why most boosted car run copper plugs and change them very often.
I rem my old car killed the platinum ones in under 2,000km.
If you get the car tuned for the plugs you shouldn't have as much issue though.

Yeah as arrong said, fuel is different, but your prob not sparkign the fuel due to your plugs fouling and its flooding the engine

i dont really understand wats goin on all i noe is i have to change them alot
:thumbdwn::thumbdwn:
oil change every 5000 and looked like sprak change every 2500
the car got retuned on wednesday with the plugs so im hopin this is better
my first tune was with platinum plugs which failed fast


^^ Yeah, I misunderstood her post too. But I agree, run too rich and the plugs foul up. The reason for running rich is to protect the engine from preignition, but that means that you need colder plugs, which end up fouling quicker. What boost pressure are you running? Reduce it slightly, which means you shouldn't need to run as rich and you can also go to a slightly cooler plug.

im only runnin about 8psi reduce it anymore and i wont be about to go up a slight up hill LMAO


umm would u guys happen to have any advice on wat brand or type of colder plugs i can get ?
my next service is this weekend so i can pick up one today

Thanks heaps

[Limbo]

i'm running NGK platinium 7 range & i'm running 10PSI.
Mine was tuned with platinum plugs also.

I think you should see a change from the retune. If they tune it to 14.7 A/F it should be fine. I had a look at my plugs after about 1,000km and they looked fine.

All comes down to the tuner

[aaronng]

i dont really understand wats goin on all i noe is i have to change them alot
:thumbdwn::thumbdwn:
oil change every 5000 and looked like sprak change every 2500
the car got retuned on wednesday with the plugs so im hopin this is better
my first tune was with platinum plugs which failed fast

im only runnin about 8psi reduce it anymore and i wont be about to go up a slight up hill LMAO

umm would u guys happen to have any advice on wat brand or type of colder plugs i can get ?
my next service is this weekend so i can pick up one today

Thanks heaps
What spark plugs are running now? The exact part number if possible. Also, what are your AF ratios?

[dsp26]

I reckon get NGK IRIWAYS/IRITOPS



NGK Iritop 7 Iridium Spark Plug

Gap - 0.8mm
Heat range - 7

The NGK Iritops are performance plugs suited specifically for engines requiring colder rated spark plugs and smaller gaps not catered for in the Iridium range.

An ideal replacement for cars using the BCPR6EIX-11/BCPR7EIX-11 that require a smaller 0.8mm gap at higher boost levels



NGK Iriway 7 Iridium Spark Plug

Gap - 0.8mm
Heat range - 7

The NGK Iriways are performance plugs suited specifically for engines requiring colder rated spark plugs and smaller gaps not catered for in the Iridium range.

An ideal replacement for cars using the BKR7EIX-11 that require a smaller 0.8mm gap at higher boost levels.