swap bar? strut bar? wtf

[warwick108]

hey ppl.. noob question here..
whats the difference?..
are they the same thing..?
=S

[simonnowis]

strut bar is the bar that bolts onto the top mounts of the suspension.
swaybars got under the car bolting onto the lca and subframe, its also called an anti-roll bar. as the name says it prevents body roll.
but yeh they both are for purpose of strengthening the chasis for better handling.
for fwd cars like hondas, rear swaybars make a big diff in handling since theres natural understeer.
that would be the first mod id do if u want better handling.

[est1989]

+1 for you

[warwick108]

so.. for an fd.. what would I be looking for?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Civic-2001-2006-Integra-2001-2008-REAR-Strut-Bar-Brace_W0QQitemZ200211202011QQihZ010QQcategoryZ4380 7QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
what is that strut brace hooked on to? the 2 pink/metalic looking thing?

[James The Wog]

so a rear sway bar gose underneath the car yer?
and for a FWD car do sway/strut bar's do much on the frount?

p.s sorry for hijacking

[Dy_]

so a rear sway bar gose underneath the car yer?
and for a FWD car do sway/strut bar's do much on the frount?

p.s sorry for hijacking

fronts will not be as noticeable as the rears. combo of front strut+sway and rear strut+sway is the way to go though.

[TheSaint]

get and integra type-r (ITR) or civic type-r (CTR) upper front strut brace for the front (across the top back of the engine), a spoon (insert other brand here) upper strut brace for the rear (goes across the two humps across your boot) and a ITR (22mm) or CTR rear swaybar with tie bracing or an ASR brace - the tie/ASR brace will decrease the chance of a stronger swaybar ripping the sub frame apart and possibly doing REALLY bad damage to the car

the strut braces are great mods for giving your car better stabilisations in corners for everyday driving and track, they are good for your car and have a positive effect on your suspension which in turn gives a slight plus effect to your tires

the swaybar will effect the way the car drives alot more, if your car is just a daily i would either leave it alone or get a more standard swaybar... say a 15mm from like a vti-r integra or another model civic
putting a hectic swaybar on the car will stiffen the back end alot on a honda and it will change the way the car feels for daily driving... its great for track, much easier to get perfect corners and you get more feel for where the weight balance is in the car but for daily driving its easier not to worry too much about all this and get some good springs/shocks or coilovers would instead =)

putting better suspension on your car will have a great all round effect and will give a positive effect on tyre wear =)

[est1989]

some people say if u upgrade ur rear sway bar you will feel more of a difference as compared to an upgrade in suspension ie. coilovers.

[RtN]

lol so its dangerous to have a rear strut brace but no tie bar? And sorry to hijack is my stock EM1 sway bar good enough?

[dahon]

rear sway bar definately helps alot, especially with corner entry and exit speed, usually if you turn hard, body roll/sway will lean away from the corner pushing your rear wheel up (say if u turn hard right, your rear inner/drivers side wheel). a sway bar counteracts this force by using the opposite (either passenger) wheel assembly to push against this upwards force using a simple torsion bar to keep the wheel ( and therefore the chassis body ) down on the ground. the effects of a sway bar are definately felt.
a strut bar on the other hand will just reduce chassis flex or torsion within the chassis itself. ie the twisting of the chassis during turning. Its used to connect two parallel struts together (the macpherson strut - spring + shock combo) (A strut bar is designed to reduce this strut tower flex by tying two parallel strut towers together. This transmits the load of each strut tower during cornering via tension and compression of the strut bar which shares the load between both towers and reduces chassis flex - stolen from wikipedia.). this is more subtle and installing a strut brace wont really be noticable as most chassis are rigid enough to withstand daily driving and some hard turns.
search through the forum or check out howstuffworks.com or wikipedia for more info.
ask johnL, he usually makes good posts describing this stuff.

[simonnowis]

lol so its dangerous to have a rear strut brace but no tie bar?
by dangerous wat do u mean? causing the car to be unstable?

well, no. i noticed that after putting in a rear strut there was a bit of diff, but its not enough to cause the car to oversteer insanely.
basically with swaybars is the larger the front is the more understeer, the larger the rear is the more oversteer.
so for the FD if u wanna upgrade, it would be getting strut bars, Coilovers or getting a thicker rear for better handling, but not thicker in terms of going overboard.
but generally the front is larger then the rear.
e.g. EK9 setup is 26mm front and 22mm rear, that handles pretty well.
correct me if im wrong but i think DC2R is 24mm front and 22/23mm rear(98spec is 23mm rear)

[RtN]

How abt EM1!! ahaha =]


Originally Posted by TheSaint
a stronger swaybar ripping the sub frame apart and possibly doing REALLY bad damage to the car

Oh wait I just realised he said swaybar .__. my bad. LOL so you reckon the EM1 OEM sway bar is adequate?

[A.G.System]

OK first thing first here children.

If you are putting ANY kind of brace onto your car Research It.
Just because an Ek9 has 26mm front doesnt mean that your CXI can take one. The EK9's etc have extra welding and factory mounts etc. If you try to bold say a whiteline kit onto a stock CXI and fit said brace it

1. will not fit
and
2. will more than likely rip your sub frame out..... TRUST ME!

To the poster that wanted to know if swaybars will improve over coilovers.

Simple answer is NO

Long answer is YES. Provided that at the time you change the shocks and springs to suit.
Stock springs and shocks are not designed to cope with the added pressures and will wear out quicker.

Check companies like Whiteline and their articles about civic handling for details on what can be done.

For EG.
page 1: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/real_handling_32.jpg
page 2: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/real_handling_32b.jpg

For Ek
Page 1: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_1.jpg
Page 2: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_2.jpg
Page 3: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_3.jpg

Its just a guide and there are people that will tell you its wrong.

But most of them also believe that coloured anodized wheel nuts add 20kw. :)

[SHIFTY]

if u stiffen the rear with lots of bars, dont leave the front with nothing still stiffen the front (but maybe not with such thick bars).. can get hard 2 control if u stiffen the back up 2 much...

[dahon]

id say just go with a simple 14mm ek4/em1 rear sway bar + lower control arms with rear sway holes, considering its oem anyways. simple to fit and cheap. and just see how that feels for you. if you want more then you can always go the larger sway + subframe brace route.

[TheSaint]

"How abt EM1!! ahaha =]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSaint
a stronger swaybar ripping the sub frame apart and possibly doing REALLY bad damage to the car
Oh wait I just realised he said swaybar .__. my bad. LOL so you reckon the EM1 OEM sway bar is adequate?"


unless you goto the race track... yes

save your money for strut braces and coilovers

[Limbo]

Ek4 has same size front without the extra welding.
CXI has an identical chassis. The weakness in the ek chassis is the rear not the front.

But braces all help. ASR make one of the best rear to prevent subframe rip.
Haven't heard of anyone ripping their rear who have an ASR in it.



OK first thing first here children.

If you are putting ANY kind of brace onto your car Research It.
Just because an Ek9 has 26mm front doesnt mean that your CXI can take one. The EK9's etc have extra welding and factory mounts etc. If you try to bold say a whiteline kit onto a stock CXI and fit said brace it

1. will not fit
and
2. will more than likely rip your sub frame out..... TRUST ME!

To the poster that wanted to know if swaybars will improve over coilovers.

Simple answer is NO

Long answer is YES. Provided that at the time you change the shocks and springs to suit.
Stock springs and shocks are not designed to cope with the added pressures and will wear out quicker.

Check companies like Whiteline and their articles about civic handling for details on what can be done.

For EG.
page 1: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/real_handling_32.jpg
page 2: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/real_handling_32b.jpg

For Ek
Page 1: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_1.jpg
Page 2: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_2.jpg
Page 3: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_3.jpg

Its just a guide and there are people that will tell you its wrong.

But most of them also believe that coloured anodized wheel nuts add 20kw. :)

[hondajazz2005]

after i installed the front strut bar and lower my car, i can feel obvious improvement in handling.

[RtN]

Well yeh I got front and rear struts.. and OEM Sway Bars.. Should go for tie bar next.. Could a tie bar be considered an alternative to ASR?

[DC4Integra98]

is it ok to get front struts only? Or will I see quite a bit of oversteer?

Thanks

[Dy_]

is it ok to get front struts only? Or will I see quite a bit of oversteer?

Thanks

you wont notice much of a difference. so if i put it on secretly without you knowing and you drove the car, you wouldnt know.

[A.G.System]

Ek4 has same size front without the extra welding.
CXI has an identical chassis. The weakness in the ek chassis is the rear not the front.

But braces all help. ASR make one of the best rear to prevent subframe rip.
Haven't heard of anyone ripping their rear who have an ASR in it.

Yeah was more taking about the rear bars in the case of the sub frame tearing.

The ASR and NEW whiteline brace kits are good. Just make sure that everything is bolted up correctly. Ive heard of people tearing even with ASR kit but that was due to the bolts not being re tightened after 100km and vibrating loose. Thus causing the same issue as not having a brace at all.

[bennjamin]

OK first thing first here children.

If you are putting ANY kind of brace onto your car Research It.
Just because an Ek9 has 26mm front doesnt mean that your CXI can take one. The EK9's etc have extra welding and factory mounts etc. If you try to bold say a whiteline kit onto a stock CXI and fit said brace it

1. will not fit
and
2. will more than likely rip your sub frame out..... TRUST ME!

To the poster that wanted to know if swaybars will improve over coilovers.

Simple answer is NO

Long answer is YES. Provided that at the time you change the shocks and springs to suit.
Stock springs and shocks are not designed to cope with the added pressures and will wear out quicker.

Check companies like Whiteline and their articles about civic handling for details on what can be done.

For EG.
page 1: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/real_handling_32.jpg
page 2: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/real_handling_32b.jpg

For Ek
Page 1: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_1.jpg
Page 2: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_2.jpg
Page 3: http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/AS_0308_susp_3.jpg

Its just a guide and there are people that will tell you its wrong.

But most of them also believe that coloured anodized wheel nuts add 20kw. :)



I disagree. Why ?

1. A CTR front swaybar will 95% bolt into a EK1. the holes exist for the swaybar , all that is needed is the proper lower control arms with the correct endlink holes. there is no issues (unless link me) with upgrading a FRONT swaybar.
I have personally installed this into a few EK1's and they cant be more happy.

You must refer to REAR swaybars ( aftermarket/upgraded).

When upgrading any rear swaybar ( due to the location and design of the swaybar mounting) its advisable to upgrade the subframe reinforcement.

RE coilovers vs swaybars - there are a few minds to this.

But the fact is , your cars handling will change drastically with a upgraded REAR swaybar , compared to any set of "coilovers". Biggest "improvement" full stop. Sure its best to upgrade your springs and shocks to reduce the "pivot" movement onto the subframe , but the shocks do not wear out less. If anything , they last longer because the axis/plane linked by the swaybar is moving LESS not MORE.

BTW the company mentioned has past issues to rectify , I know i do not recommend them to anyone myself. There are better more stable/safe/stronger alternatives out there.

[A.G.System]

bennjamin see post above yours :)

[bennjamin]

bennjamin see post above yours :)

Read ~ be careful to address your point in ur initial post next time lol.
all good points.

[warwick108]

what strut bar and sway bar should I get for my fd?..

[TheSaint]

i believe u cannot pit swaybars, strut braces and coilovers against eachother

i think u should not upgrade these parts just for the sake of it...

i think that u should understand what the modification is ACTUALLY going to do to your car and than choose whether or not you want these effects

i think that if you already have oem rear sway bar and u are not going to the track/hillclimb than u should leave it

strut braces are a great start, coilovers are awsome as well

effects:
rear swaybar - a rear swaybar will stiffen up the back end of your FR car, this will give you less of a roll feeling and more of a 'drift' feeling, oem vti/vtir sway bars are fine for daily driving, i would not recommend going to a ITR/CTR (or stronger IE 22mm) on a daily car unless you are going to the track
brands - OEM ITR/CTR, whiteline

tie brace - this is strengthening the points between the chassis where the swaybar bolts on, this is a goo modification to do instead of a rear sway bar replacement
brands - ASR, whiteline, cusco

front/rear struts - these wont have as much effect as a rear sway bar, i noticed a slight improvement in cornering and the way my suspension reacted was alot better, highly recommended if you are getting coilovers but otherwise a good daily + track modification
brands - OEM CTR/ITR spoon, cusco

coilovers - these require alot more explaination but depending on which ones you get can a. lower the car b. stiffen the cornering alot c. change the comfortability and ride of the car, for daily use some light coilovers can be very nice - giving smoother cornering and a lower ride but without too many adverse effects, stronger more race orientaded coilovers are going to be stiffer and alot less comfortable for daily driving but are good for the track
brands - OEM CTR/ITR, tein, buddyclub, cusco, skunk2

also remember that because something is good for track / handeling that doesnt mean that its also going to be good for daily driving, as i found out from experience not all modifications are good for your daily car and you should choose carefully about what you actually change on a car, not just do it for the sake of modifying

[AutoNoob]

tighten bolts every 100kms??!! LOL, geez thats like once every 2 days, isnt that overkill?

Anyways, whiteline rear swaybar+brace 22mm's are 300 bucks RRP. that is quite good. Or should i be aiming for like a 18mm swaybar without the brace.

Um yeah, people who drive their civics and rip out their frames, how are they driving their cars? Like what kind of 'extreme' activities do they make their ride perform. I like to know.

[bennjamin]

Van , you must retigthen ever 100 or so for a short time after ( to make sure)

IMO , save and get a ASR brace plus a CTR rear swaybar fr your ride.

[DC4Integra98]

you wont notice much of a difference. so if i put it on secretly without you knowing and you drove the car, you wouldnt know.

Fair enough, won't be spending my cash on one in that case =)

[Dy_]

Fair enough, won't be spending my cash on one in that case =)

you could prob pick up a 2nd hand one for fairly cheap. just get a front and rear and sway etc. the front strut itself wont make much of a difference but if you get a whole combo it will.

[DC4Integra98]

you could prob pick up a 2nd hand one for fairly cheap. just get a front and rear and sway etc. the front strut itself wont make much of a difference but if you get a whole combo it will.

Will do, thanks for the advice!

[dahon]

yeha definately a sway makes way more difference in terms of feeling the mod than a strut bar by itself ever will.

[Killa From Manila]

heres some stuff with my experience with sussy on my cxi (i have no front swaybar)

only coilovers(BC N+ and RE001) - handles pretty well in the dry, quite a neutral setup until ur on the limits where it just starts to understeer. quite abit of bodyroll, and if u turn up dampers to help..u get bumpsteer which isnt that great, but overall its comfy and fun
in the wet - too much understeer, dont even have to corner that hard

N+ + re001 + dc2r rear swaybar + ASR brace
dry weather - handled great, alot firmer in the rear, elimitated alot of the body roll but the front stil seemed abit soft n floaty
wet weather - 100x better. can push ur car soo much harder without understeering. with poorer tyres u can get some oversteer action


now im waiting to install my ek9 front swaybar. shud make alot of difference, especially since i ahve nothing installed up front.

[Killa From Manila]

oh n 1 more thing...my car handled better with a 14mm vtir rear swaybar, than it did with no swaybar and my dampers turned up almost halfway

[BC8]

what strut bar and sway bar should I get for my fd?..

just get a front strut bar the "V" shaped cusco for around $300 that will stiften the chassis
I dont believe they have sway bars and rear struts avaliable for the FD yet. I did see a rear strut on ebay before (overseas) but probably poor quality

[TheSaint]

i got way too much drift in the wet with a 22mm on my vtir

would have been better keeping it stock and buying an ASR brace instead

now im looking at putting the 14mm off my vtir onto my EG =) need to get the LCAs to match tho lol

[d15z1SUX]

so do i. ive had a vtir swaybar lying around since the beginning of time but don't have the right lca's yet.

[Chuckz]

can we sticky this thread?

[TheSaint]

sticky the reverse gear thread as well pls

[JohnL]

i got way too much drift in the wet with a 22mm on my vtir

would have been better keeping it stock and buying an ASR brace instead

now im looking at putting the 14mm off my vtir onto my EG =) need to get the LCAs to match tho lol

22mm is a massively stiff rear ARB. Such an ARB may be suitable for track use but is overkill for a road car, no wonder you're having oversteer trouble in the wet. An 18mm or 19mm rear ARB would IMO be more suitable for a road car. Don't blame stiffer than stock ARBs in general for your problem when it's only that your particular ARB is way too stiff.

A small increase in the ARB OD creates a very substantial increase in stiffness. To give some idea of how this works; I know that a (stock?) 14mm ARB has a stiffness of Y, a 17mm ARB has a stiffness of 2xY, a 19mm ARB has a stifness of 2.7xY. Without actually crunching the numbers for a 22mm ARB I'm sure you can see it's going to be pretty damn stiff relative a to a 14mm ARB, probably something like 5 or 6 times as stiff.