AUDM B18C vs AUDM B16a2

[VT1-R]

This question may have been repeated over and over again.

But the point I really need ppl's experience with modding a B16a2(160hp) with I/H/E, Type R cams with a tune or going for a straight drop b18c(170hp)... Considering I have a b16a2 now with I/h/E,clutch,flywheel and have cams n valve springs ready to be dropped in with short shifter and a set of regamaster wheels to complement better acceleration to be bought soon...

Option 1:
Cost of buying valve springs n rebuild kit:$235+$235(DIY swap)
Vafc+tune=$400
Add. $$ for Rega after selling current wheels=$600
Short shifter=$200

Total cost=$1700

Option 2:
Drop AUDM B18C with 170hp, which has 10hp more than b16a.. More torque but marginal increase in peak power considering the $$ put in..

B18C swap inclusive labour after B16a traded in: $4500,

which means $4500 spend jus for a straight swap without getting tune,short shift,with heavier 17" rims now and also no type R spec cams.

The point is that i cant see myself going only 10more hp with spending $4500 and the trouble of a swap than to spend less than half that amount extracting better power out of the almost as competent b16a2 with 160hp through better shifting,peak power and tuning and lighter rotational mass.

B18C7 is not an opinion as it is out of budget:$6500 with engine traded in and takes long time to come.. B18C7 is definitely a great mod but $$ issues are stopping it. So yeah..

So, any1 can tell me their opinion about b18c(170hp) vs B16a(160hp) with some helpful goodies...

Cheers...

[ZeForce]

Do a B20VTEC conversion.... The torque does makes a huge difference, peak power is almost meaningless which is something I dont think alot of ppl reallise.

GREEN: B20VTEC + I/H/E + Tuning
BLUE: B16a + Intake + Tuning

http://a627.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/9/l_0819187801ad1f8062b65a02df81faf2.jpg

[VT1-R]

Yes, I know torque is the thing!.. No replacement for displacement. The cost of building a gd reliable B20 vtec is way off. A b18C7 will be cheaper..

The point i am making is b18c with 170hp swap worth it or not from a b16a 160hp just for the torque which can be made up for improvements in other aspects.. $4500 or $1700 to spend. Big $$ diff involved!! SO yeah..BUT i am really impress with the torque!! B20 is monster..

[EGB18CT]

turbo ur b16a :)

[ZeForce]

Yes, I know torque is the thing!.. No replacement for displacement. The cost of building a gd reliable B20 vtec is way off. A b18C7 will be cheaper..

Actually its not, since you already have a B16a it would only cost you maybe $1500 in parts to do a "reliable" B20VTEC conversion.


PM me for more info

[aramiK]

Go with the b18c - you can mod it later on to perform much better than the b18c7.. not a big difference in these two engines once work is done ...

[CB7_OWNER]

why not swap in a b18c(200hp) from a dc2r?

[todaek9]

B20 is gooddd...
B16a is also goodd...

[fatboyz39]

topic is B18c VS b16a..... 1.8L >1.6L.

[VT1-R]

why not swap in a b18c(200hp) from a dc2r?

B18C7 is out of budget thats why...

I am asking that if b18c without mods is worth the swap to my current setup or the b16a2 with enhancements will be just as good other than the torque...

[blk_shadow]

I will go with B18C

better torque, more options for more power later on.

when you decide to stroke it, it can go to 2.2 (actually 2.1 something) from B18c, instead of just 1.8 from B16a

at the end of the day 1.8 has more torque than 1.6

that's my opinion.

[Q_ball]

*groans at this topic*

[fatboyz39]

FARK $4500 ? What workshop is doing it? CAUSE YOUR GETTING RIPPPPPPPPED OFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wouldn't PAY anymore then 2k + trade in a b16a.

[VT1-R]

Supposed to be a cheap workshop.. haha.. Its $4500+trade my motor in. The price includes labour. I reckon under $4000 plus trade will be good. Well, I am keeping car only for another year b4 selling. Spending $4000+ now really wouldn't be a good thing unless its for a good gain...

Other than the torque, the b16a top end can be better than b18c2 after cam work rite?

[gambate]

considering $50-75 per hour for labour, paying more than 24 hours (ie 3+ business day) for labour, who ever do the conversion is not good enouf for the work, B series to B series is not that much work

i guess best to break down the b18c deal to labour + trade in and see where he is trying to rip you off..

[DNYALL]

dude, go b18c, no question.

[VT1-R]

haha.. i will see how then.. Is there any1 who would still go b16a coz going b18c with 170hp is onli a 10hp gap? You guys think its worth the $4500 extra? after b18c no more mods for sure.. Selling car soon.. I think many misunderstand b18c i am referring to.. its the AUDM b18c with 170hp.. I have used my b16a to beat a Dc2 vti-r with exhaust.. So its not tat far off... $1700 vs $4500 is not small sum.. Any1 tried either of this combination and live to regret or rejoice?

[ZeForce]

haha.. i will see how then.. Is there any1 who would still go b16a coz going b18c with 170hp is onli a 10hp gap? You guys think its worth the $4500 extra? after b18c no more mods for sure.. Selling car soon.. I think many misunderstand b18c i am referring to.. its the AUDM b18c with 170hp.. I have used my b16a to beat a Dc2 vti-r with exhaust.. So its not tat far off... $1700 vs $4500 is not small sum.. Any1 tried either of this combination and live to regret or rejoice?

I think you are missing the point, its not just a 10hp gain in peak power. The B18c will have more power throughout the entire RPM range compared to the B16a. I previously owned a B16a civic and was disappointed by its lack of torque. My cousin owns a B18c civic which I have driven and there is a pretty big difference between the two, its alot more than just the 10 peak hp as well. As I have said before I currently own a B20VTEC civic which is even better again. If you plan on selling the car soon and dont wanna spend too much money on it then just stay with the B16a, but the fact still remains that the B18c would be the better option especially once you start modding it.

[VT1-R]

I think you are missing the point, its not just a 10hp gain in peak power. The B18c will have more power throughout the entire RPM range compared to the B16a. I previously owned a B16a civic and was disappointed by its lack of torque. My cousin owns a B18c civic which I have driven and there is a pretty big difference between the two, its alot more than just the 10 peak hp as well. As I have said before I currently own a B20VTEC civic which is even better again. If you plan on selling the car soon and dont wanna spend too much money on it then just stay with the B16a, but the fact still remains that the B18c would be the better option especially once you start modding it.

totally agree than b18c is the best after i start modding it.. Maybe i do it in a few years time down the road then.. Thanks for your help Zeforce.. I am too bored of the lack of torque. Well, might go b18c7 soon in near future..

[todaek9]

Is B16a that bad??? hmmm....

[ZeForce]

Is B16a that bad??? hmmm....

No, it is good for a 1.6L but the B18c is better, a B20VTEC is better again and Im gonna assume a K24a would be even better still.

There is no replacement for displacement :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[FR33K]

your overestimating the cost of the b18c
its should be more like 1700 for mod b16a and 2000 for the b18c (say 4.5k buy and install less 2.5k selling of your old b16a).. although option 2 is alot more hassle

[Limbo]

boost the b16, you will get more torque than the b20 or b18 and its heaps of fun

[rk 86 wa]

dom you should drive albertos car and see what you think

he has b18c

[vteccoupe]

b18c is the way to go imho

[aramiK]

do you know the differences between the c7 and c2? It's not that much if you later going to do headwork - and the block is close to the same.. if you look at my b18c2 build.. the block has had all work done to be much better than any c7 block and sustain much more hard driving than any c7 block - also the head with aftermarket cams, springs, etc and after a port and polish - is actually better than the c7 head after cams, springs etc.. also the compression is higher.

b18c = more torque and more easy workability.

[VT1-R]

yup bro.. i noe wats C7 n C2... Its just a complicated discussion every1 joins in.. So it may seem I am not getting the point.. but my question is answered and I will proceed to do what i tink is the best.. Thank every1 for their
comments!...

[aramiK]

enjoy :D

[gambate]

lol, everyone talk like budget is unlimited..

[bennjamin]

lol, everyone talk like budget is unlimited..

the budget , would be almost exactly the same between the B16 and B18 series. They take the same header/intake/exhaust combos , also camshaft options/pistons/headwork is all in the same league.
All that is different is 200cc less displacement and alittle more piston speed.
PS go the B18c7 if you can find one

[ae86hachiroku]

I'd stick with the B16, simple because you already have all the parts to drop in, and imo $4500 for a 10hp increase is not worthy at this stage, especially because right after you're going to be broke as.
Nothing wrong with having fun revving the shit out of the 1.6l anyway. Power isn't always everything.

[dc2rrrr]

I will go with B18C

better torque, more options for more power later on.

when you decide to stroke it, it can go to 2.2 (actually 2.1 something) from B18c, instead of just 1.8 from B16a

at the end of the day 1.8 has more torque than 1.6

that's my opinion.


Yes if you sleeve your block. Hello That is way out of the budget here!!!!!

[dc2rrrr]

A modded b18c (vtir) will perform as well as a modded b18c7. And alot cheaper to buy straight off.

[blk_shadow]

Yes if you sleeve your block. Hello That is way out of the budget here!!!!!

that's why I said "AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF YOU DECIDE TO STROKE IT."

only if you want it!!!

who ever said you're going to do it straight away???

[dc2rrrr]

Dont think i would trust anyone in oz to do it anyway.

[blk_shadow]

usually I just looked at their demo cars first, how many have they done, and then their customers' satisfaction. and then I'll do it.

[NightKids]

ZeForce already said reliable B20 for $1500, so why does this topic title & thread still exist?!?!

[krogoth]

Do a B20VTEC conversion.... The torque does makes a huge difference, peak power is almost meaningless which is something I dont think alot of ppl reallise.

GREEN: B20VTEC + I/H/E + Tuning
BLUE: B16a + Intake + Tuning

http://a627.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/9/l_0819187801ad1f8062b65a02df81faf2.jpg

yes i agree, b20 conversions will have lots of torque

but im confused??

the small script in the middle sez 174nm??? seems a little low for a tuned and modded b20

but that graph on the bottom is way off

more than 350nm from a b20?? highly dought it

[bennjamin]

Because this thread is not about B20's. It is about B18c vs b16a , and the options with each engine.

VTi-R , IMO spend your money on your existing engine.

[dc2rrrr]

spend your money on me i will make you happy. But yes definatly a b18c if you can afford it. Torque is to me more importand in a high reving honda engine that outright power. My Dc2r made 120 odd kw and 300+ odd NM-T and it was a freak on the track

[ZeForce]

Because this thread is not about B20's. It is about B18c vs b16a , and the options with each engine.

VTi-R , IMO spend your money on your existing engine.

I only mentioned B20VTEC as an option since it seems like the OP had overlooked it. Swapping from a B16a to a B18c, while being a better engine, does seem like a big waste of time and money IMO. If you want bang for buck and dont want a turbo then swapping out the bottom end with a B20b is the next best thing and Im talking first hand going from a B16a to B20VTEC.

[bennjamin]

fair enough - op is probably clueless as to all other options out there but we gotta keep this on topic :)

[dc2rrrr]

Kinda rethinking the issue. Just for bang for buck and the learning experience and trying and seeing first hand what works best play with your b16a. Do your headers intake cat exhaust a set of cams maybe a port and ecu them later if you want throw a different bottom end under your b16 head. Bump up compression and capacity any you will have a freak on your hands

[todaek9]

B16a has good potential as well..play ard abit..
I did see a EG with B16a just with IHE/ecu runs on Par with a S2000 stock..

[[[d a n n y]]]

B18c FTW
Off topic B20B FTW

[dc2rrrr]

money is always the ememy!!!!!

[rpm boy]

spend your money on me i will make you happy. But yes definatly a b18c if you can afford it. Torque is to me more importand in a high reving honda engine that outright power. My Dc2r made 120 odd kw and 300+ odd NM-T and it was a freak on the track

What rpm did the b18 make that torque at?
Keep the b16 get a lightened flywheel, toda b cams, hondata, itb's, spoon head gasket and u will shit over a b18 and not have to do a conversion, theres soo many ways to get some serious power out of a b16 that would be easier than doing the b18 conversion its just no one wants to bother with them anymore , 4500 will get you a preety damn fast b16

[ZeForce]

What rpm did the b18 make that torque at?
Keep the b16 get a lightened flywheel, toda b cams, hondata, itb's, spoon head gasket and u will shit over a b18 and not have to do a conversion, theres soo many ways to get some serious power out of a b16 that would be easier than doing the b18 conversion its just no one wants to bother with them anymore , 4500 will get you a preety damn fast b16

Im assuming you have done all this and are talking from experience?

[rpm boy]

Yep but in an ek4... i mean when ur flooring it ur in vtec neways so that low end torque isnt really a big issue, depending on what ur putting it in, eg theres no need ek is even fine so stick with the b16 i rekon

[barefootbonzai]

Any more details on your car rpm_boy? 1/4 times or perhaps even some dyno figures to back up your claims?

[aaronng]

Yep but in an ek4... i mean when ur flooring it ur in vtec neways so that low end torque isnt really a big issue, depending on what ur putting it in, eg theres no need ek is even fine so stick with the b16 i rekon

Even when you floor it, you still need to reach 6000rpm. Also when you are in vtec, there isn't much torque.....

[aaronng]

What rpm did the b18 make that torque at?
Keep the b16 get a lightened flywheel, toda b cams, hondata, itb's, spoon head gasket and u will shit over a b18 and not have to do a conversion, theres soo many ways to get some serious power out of a b16 that would be easier than doing the b18 conversion its just no one wants to bother with them anymore , 4500 will get you a preety damn fast b16

Is $4500 for parts alone? Or does that include labour?

[Zilli]

i smell ownage...

[rpm boy]

Lets all go back to the first question which was what would be better, doing up the b16 or dropping in a b18c, now for the money modding the b16 would be the cheapest option and if danny was going to spend 4500 u could build a much faster b16 than putting in a stock b18c.....i dont mean to say that a b18 isnt better than a b16 cause thats not the case a b18 is a superior motor in many respects but in this case (MY OPINION) the b16 with some work would b better, you could even get a jrsc for less than the b18c
Barefootbonzai, i didnt make any claims as to hp or kw but surely with the mods listed before with a b16 compared to a stock AUDM b18c, the b16 would be the superior motor taking driver ability out of the equation?

[barefootbonzai]

yeah agreed. changing to a VTiR B18c for $4500 + B16 is a crazy rip off. But if it's costing the OP that much for that, it'd probably cost him an arm and a leg to make his B16 any good as well. Kinda sux living where he does.

[Limbo]

for that money i'd boost the car, and i have an ek4 also.

When i had N/A - after all the work i did to the car it still did not have the torque of a b18. It was faster than most b18 vti-rs (don't ask you don't wanna know)

End of the day only boost can make a b16 really out perform a b18. I'm addicted now ;)

[nigs]

Hill climb in a 1.6 = LOL
Even though it's maybe making more power than a 1.8, it's much much later. Reducing usable power.

Broad power band FTW.
N/A throttle reponse FTW.
N/A exhaust note FTW.

All depends on application I guess.

[todaek9]

just stick wit tha b16..if don like it...might as well change the car...

[hondavti25]

hhhmm ihave the same choice to make and i have a heavier ej8... problem is finding the cheapest deal in qld... does the higher tourque of the b18 make a huge differance?

[bennjamin]

yes. The b18c2/7 will "pull" more easily from every gear. IE it will have more usable power and oomph. You wont have to downshift as much

[beeza]

OP-Did U make a decision?

I'm with Limbo,Boost ftw!