Audi A4 or Euro Luxury?

[tRung]

Hi guys!
I'm currently in the market for a new family sedan
I'm tossing between Audi A4 B6 Quattro and Accord Euro Luxury
Luxury is at the top of the list plus some sporty elements.
Those who previously owned an Audi A4 and moved on to Euro, your thoughts (reasons) would be greatly appreciated.
Any regrets you guys have since owning a Euro?
What are your thoughts in general?

[JunYu]

I would go with the Euro.

audi's are known for their electrical faults, and I would imagine that services would be very expensive for both parts and labor.

The Euro is more bang for buck kind of car.

[28RAG]

audi's are known for their electrical faults,

Really? how so?

[ktvin09]

How much is the A4?

[iversonruls]

big difference between price i thought

[28RAG]

What are the particulars on the A4?

I can check the warranty history if you can get a VIN

[dc2dc2dc2]

Ask JT
i thought he use to drive A4 and he services alot of Audi's
Says they are nothing but trouble.
I remember one of his rants.

[tron07]

I have the feeling that the entry level A4 price is similar to the Euro lux... but I think a quattro probably cost a lot more...

[28RAG]

Ask JT
i thought he use to drive A4 and he services alot of Audi's
Says they are nothing but trouble.
I remember one of his rants.

I work for Audi and know of only one main concern on that model - multitronic transmission control units.

Alfa's are notorious for electrics

[28RAG]

I have the feeling that the entry level A4 price is similar to the Euro lux... but I think a quattro probably cost a lot more...

Very correct.

Also remembering pricing is so all over the place seeing you have 6-8 engine varients then add quattro to them ande youll see you need specifics for prices

[EuroDude]

A4 is nice but its just too expensive for what you get. You get a similar package with the Euro Lux and just as good if not better quality.

Basically you are paying thousands of dollars extra just for the Audi badge lol

[tron07]

If looking at the pricing, I think I will steer towards a 325 or 330... RWD.. FTW

[28RAG]

If looking at the pricing, I think I will steer towards a 325 or 330... RWD.. FTW

Anything but a Beemer haha

[SiReal]

audi are dirt cheap second hand.

I picked mine up B5 GP update , V6 and sold it no long after.. 66,000kms had power steering pump noises - plus also read coil packs were problematic. stereo had BIG issues as well.

Burnt once, never again.

Thats why i came back to honda and will continue to stick with honda.

[albii]

buy it used if you go for an audi as depreciation is a killer.

[curik]

The B6 A4 Quattro is really well built. I've been into one and the door, interior and dash feel sturdy and solid. Not to mention its 1.8 powerplant, which can be modified endlessly. A used 1.8TQ can be had for 30K ish, I'd say go and test drive it. It's in a different league from the euro.

As some mention about depreciation or options list, if you are getting 2nd hand, so they won't not an issue. I really praise the B6 because I have compared my car to a friend's 1.8TQ. Although about servicing, yes it's more costly but not a lot. But as expected from a brand which is on par with BMW and merc

[industrie]

I would personally buy an Audi over the Euro. The interior is solid and classy, drive is great however as they come in different variants there is a big price difference. Servicing is at 15K intervals where as the Euro is 10K and you would pay a little bit more in service costs.

The euro is more value for money if you want to limit yourself to 50K that will get you a luxury with the works. Audi starting price I believe is 50-60K upwards for the base models and they are not optioned as you would have to option it which might work out to be another 10-15K on top.

Best thing is to drive both cars as well so you really know and can compare the differences.

[kimnkk]

He's looking at the B6 which is the previous generation (soon to be 2 gens old). I was in a similar situation but even after seeing and trying a few (and they do look and feel nice) i was put off because of the very problem 28RAG stated - the CVT ECU are prone to dying and if it hasn't been replaced already, you're looking at 4-5k for a replacement!

[curik]

Don't get the CVT because it's only available for FWD A4s. If you like spirited driving, or hate understeer (which most FWD audis are known to be nose heavy), then get the quattro. I'm getting rid of my euro this july too, switching to a S3.

[Exar Kun]

I came from a B5 A4 to the Euro Lux. The 10 year old B5 had better ride and was more comfortable on highways than the Honda. Better refinement all round.

I've driven a couple of B6s and they are better again. As has been mentioned, the 1.8TQ drive train is excellent and the engine is very moddable.

Servicing the Audi is a hell of a lot more expensive. Parts are a lot more expensive even if you want to do stuff on your own. I could have had a B6 1.8TQ from the local Audi dealer for $30k but still went with the Euro Lux just for the security of the new car warranty - that and the kick arse quality of the manual shift on the Euro. Also, at stock the Euro is a quicker car but needs to be driven harder to extract that performance. The 1.8T is the opposite to the Euro's motor. Good spread of torque down low but pretty breathless up high. It makes for effortless tootling around town but isn't as fun in spirited driving.

The quattro is another matter though - awesome grip. I loved it in the wet. Big take offs turning a corner and the car would just launch whereas the VSA light flashes like mad in the Honda.

Luxury wise - the A4. But the Honda has more features unless the A4 happens to be optioned to the hills. Honda is the more exicting drive but is also more tiring at highway speeds. Get the Audi into long sweeping bends and it has far more composure too.

[tron07]

nice comparision, exar

[tRung]

Ask JT
i thought he use to drive A4 and he services alot of Audi's
Says they are nothing but trouble.
I remember one of his rants.

Can you be more specific?
This is the first time I heard of such...
Servicing I understand would cost more then a Euro but quality wise I have heard Audi to be top notch.

[tRung]

I came from a B5 A4 to the Euro Lux. The 10 year old B5 had better ride and was more comfortable on highways than the Honda. Better refinement all round.

I've driven a couple of B6s and they are better again. As has been mentioned, the 1.8TQ drive train is excellent and the engine is very moddable.

Servicing the Audi is a hell of a lot more expensive. Parts are a lot more expensive even if you want to do stuff on your own. I could have had a B6 1.8TQ from the local Audi dealer for $30k but still went with the Euro Lux just for the security of the new car warranty - that and the kick arse quality of the manual shift on the Euro. Also, at stock the Euro is a quicker car but needs to be driven harder to extract that performance. The 1.8T is the opposite to the Euro's motor. Good spread of torque down low but pretty breathless up high. It makes for effortless tootling around town but isn't as fun in spirited driving.

The quattro is another matter though - awesome grip. I loved it in the wet. Big take offs turning a corner and the car would just launch whereas the VSA light flashes like mad in the Honda.

Luxury wise - the A4. But the Honda has more features unless the A4 happens to be optioned to the hills. Honda is the more exicting drive but is also more tiring at highway speeds. Get the Audi into long sweeping bends and it has far more composure too.

Thanks for the Great input!
The Quattro Id be purchasing will have all options *hopefully*
I have driven some of the standard B6 and overall ride compare to Euro its still much a better ride.
Only thing whats holding me back... for the kind of money I am forking, I can be purchasing a brand new 2008 Euro with all options instead of purchasing a secondhand 1.8Q. Both cars are beautifully crafted and solid so making up my mind is no easy task. But I am steering towards the Audi, just gotta do more test driving and studying.

Thanks for all the input! Keep em coming :)

[EK9]

i'm in almost the exact same boat as you... been thinking about a new car, either a4 b6 1.8Turbo (not quattro) or euro luxury.

as most guys here have already mentioned, the a4 is in a different league. honestly if you really know what you want, you would have made a choice already... the cars are just so different even tho specs and options are similar.

if you want good old honda reliability and value for money... euro luxury. if you want european built luxury and quality (plus nice turbo 4wd), a4 quattro. only thing is on the euro, all the leather, sunroof, etc are standard... whereas you'll need to hunt for a used a4 that was fitted with a lot of these options, and the right car might take time to find.

good luck anyways.

[yfin]

I work for Audi and know of only one main concern on that model - multitronic transmission control units.

Alfa's are notorious for electrics

How much does it cost to change the cambelt and water pump on these models? Given that you usually need to remove the complete front end of the car on the VW/Audi for such work (headlights and all) I wouldn't be surprised if your answer is $1500 to $2000 from the Audi dealer.

The Euro would never have such scheduled servicing costs with its chain set up. Advantage Honda.

[yfin]

Are you sure? In my Alfa you had only to remove the front wheel and wheel-well guard to get access to the cambelt. I'd expect access on an Audi to be similar.


That is an Alfa - this is Audi / VW! They make the job very difficult so that dealers do the work at extraordinary costs. Most non dealer mechanics can't even do the cambelt change on these vehicles as special (read expensive) Audi/VW specific tools are required.

[Miz_II_Die_IV]

Hi there, previously i have owned a 2003 Euro Lux. When it first came out. I bought that brand new for 45k. after 2 years i upgraded to a 2005 b7 Audi A4. Tho that wasnt the top mof the range model it was jsut the standard 2.0lt auto. Now i have downgraded back to the Euro in the LUX again but this time an 06. Pretty much explains the situation already. I obviously prefer the Euro. The Audi to me was just becos it was an "AUDI". Compare the 2 with power, luxury i prefer th Euro. I guess the shape of the B7 is nice but thats about it. The body is way to heavy for the power it produced. Very slow. I thought about upgrading it ith a mod chip but it was way to much for very little. Interior, i still liked the Euro better. Much more comfortable, alot more extras. By this i am stating the B7. Correct me if im wrong but the interior of the B7 i much nicer than the B6. (hence it is newer). Oh and obviously to maintain well the Audi was a killer. Will the servicing. Much Much more pricey. I only took the car to audi for service because i was unaware of any other places that are good. (The way i see it is that if i can afford a 40k+ car obivously didnt want to give it to anybody to service it). With the Euro i actually dont take it to Honda but to Hanny's which is a reputable honda service centre. So yeah... Considering i serive my car every 5000k is does do alot of damage to my pockets... LOL... anything else u need to know jsut drop me a line...

T.T ^_^

[curik]

Thats why I said don't get the CVT FWD audis. Get the 1.8T. The 2.0 is just simply rubbish and if you get one it's like stretching yourself beyond what you are capable with. Never ever buy a base model 320i/ C180K Classic/ A4 2.0. The 2.0T is the sweetest one. Servicing the audi at a dealer will be costly, and I recommend you servicing it at an audi specialist.

So the conclusion is, you can only compare a new euro with a USED A4 (B6 or B7). You cannot compare the euro with a new A4. Look at the segments in Car of The Year awards, the A4, 3 series, and C class are put in the "Premium cars", whereas the euro is in the "Medium sedan" classification together with the Mazda 6, Ford Mondeo, and Toyota Camry.

[Exar Kun]

How much does it cost to change the cambelt and water pump on these models? Given that you usually need to remove the complete front end of the car on the VW/Audi for such work (headlights and all) I wouldn't be surprised if your answer is $1500 to $2000 from the Audi dealer.

The Euro would never have such scheduled servicing costs with its chain set up. Advantage Honda.

60,000km timing belt change is typically $1200 from a dealer. Chuck in the water pump, thermostat etc plus the major service that's due at the same time and it's an easy $1500-$1600 from an Audi dealer. An Audi specialist (who I'd much rather take the car to anyway) is around $1000 to $1200 for the lot. Still pricey. The V6 models have longer intervals than the turbos for the big stuff but the turbos are where Audi is at.

All FWD A4s are rubbish. I wouldn't touch them with a 20' pole. As stated before, Quattro is awesome though (real Quattro, not the Haldex setup on the A3).

In terms of quality of Audis. It's true that they weren't so good. And it's only really the B7 that has had them starting to come good in the A4 range. B5s and B6s had a lot of issues with a lot of things. Audi were a long way behind BMW and Merc for reliability until recently. A BMW 3 is a much cheaper used car ownership proposition than a used A4. Of course, the interior on the Audi shits all over the Beemer.

I like the security of a warranty these days although I still miss my old B5 A4 at times. So smooooth. :)

[IAMVTEC]

The 2.0 A4 is a piece of rubbish(for the money) I've ridden horses that were faster, never seen throttle response so pathetic in my life, worse than Corollas. Tet to the 2.0turbo and then it's interesting but I still prefer the Euro for feel and looks.

[tony1234]

So much$$ and effort for a timing belt change:thumbdwn:.I wouldnt' touch an Audi either,heard too many horror stories eg.aircon repair $4-5K WTF!rotor replacement at 50K,$1500,that's just bullshit.:thumbdwn::thumbdwn:

[yfin]

Thanks for the factual information. :thumbsup:

So much for having to dismantle the entire front end:

"Given that you usually need to remove the complete front end of the car on the VW/Audi for such work (headlights and all)'

Err that is the preferred way to do the job as access to the front of the engine is not easy without moving the front end. See pics of V6 VW Passat cambelt change - I have been told they use the same process on the 1.8T too as it is easier. As you can see bumper off, radiator removed ....

Do you believe it now? It is a ridiculous design.

http://www.volkwerke.com.au/JobGallery/passatcam.html

Volkswagen Passat V6 Cambelts (Timing Belt) require the front end of the car to be pulled forward which requires the front bumper removed. This particular Passat is at the beginning of the re-assembly process, its new cambelt has been fitted.

http://www.volkwerke.com.au/JobGallery/resize_image_14365420312222222222222.jpg

http://www.volkwerke.com.au/JobGallery/resize_image_1436820295.jpg

[tony1234]

What a joke,just for timing belt change.At 60K as well!!

[NeoNode]

Current model VW's say for eg. Golf have like 8 bolts holding the front on, when you remove those bolts, the whole front comes off as one.

[curik]

Its not ridiculous. It's due to the orientation of the engine and little space to replace the belts. All honda engines are transverse except the S2000. But the S2000 is designed for optimal weight distribution hence the engine is pushed back further, which creates a huge space in the engine bay. Whereas the VW and Audi have compact engine bay and squeezing things up in there is quite difficult. But man, every car has its weaknesses. Would this deter you from buying such a car? Just because its something troublesome that requires change every 100K Kms?

[groovetek]

tony... of course there are horror stories... and if one owns a 2nd hand audi and it's no longer under warranty, and takes their car back to audi for repairs they should be shot in the head.

at the same time; audi is very reliable... yes IN THE CASE where something does go wrong, it costs a fortune through audi, but there are many audi specialist mechanics around that don't charge a fortune.

my cambelt major service cost me $700 in parts and labour.

i had new set of rotors and pads put in the car when i bought it, and are in great condition... i bought the car at 120k kms and it's now at 170k... i'm sure the rotors could last another 50k km.

i've only had to repalce 2 things that have gone wrong... and both didn't really "go wrong", they wore out. these things were the steering tie-rod ends, and front right wheel bearing.

oil/filter change is simple. timing belt is every 80k, not 60k.

i don't want to start a debate, but the B6 1.8TQ shits on any euro. period.

interior quality is not even comparable... the use of soft materials rather than plain plastic is like night and day.

i don't have a b6, so i'm not being biased here, but it's in a different league... there is a reason why the B6 1.8TQ's were like $70k , and euro lux's are $40k. the extra $30k goes into the better engine (+ amazing tuning potential), better drivetrain (quattro), better build quality and much better interior.

don't get me wrong, euro is a great car; had i decided to buy a new sedan i woudl have bought one at the time, but in the end i settled for an A4.

[aaronng]

i don't have a b6, so i'm not being biased here, but it's in a different league... there is a reason why the B6 1.8TQ's were like $70k , and euro lux's are $40k. the extra $30k goes into the better engine (+ amazing tuning potential), better drivetrain (quattro), better build quality and much better interior.

don't get me wrong, euro is a great car; had i decided to buy a new sedan i woudl have bought one at the time, but in the end i settled for an A4.

Regional pricing. In the US, the B6 A4 is only few thousand more than a TSX. Same for a BMW 325i. Luxury cars are overpriced here.

Amazing tuning potential is not specific to the 1.8T. It is because it is a turbo engine that a chip which increases the wastegate threshold pressure and adds more fuel that it gets more power from just a software change.

[groovetek]

of course it's not specific to the 1.8T...

but point is, it's a turbo, which hondas don't ever seem to want to put in their cars for some reason...

not dissing NA or VTEC, but turbocharging is a tried and true method of increasing the power, and in honda's case especially, MUCH needed mid-range torque, so they are abit stubborn in persisting with NA.

dont' get me wrong; i luv decent hondas like dc2r/dc5r, s2k/nsx (who doesn't), and euro is alright, but yeah... there isn't much going on technology wise with honda's NA engines... sure, increasing compression ratios... making vtec more aggressive, etc... but ultimately have the engines really actually improved???

in fact, some engines are going backwards! what's up with the new legend's SOHC 3.5L???? is bmw's engineering so much better that it can achieve 250kw with a 3.2 inline 6 NA?

[johnprocter]

yeah why doesnt honda bring out a turbo :S ?

[aaronng]

They did with the RDX and failed miserably.... The MDX with the 3.5L and heavier body got better fuel consumption and performance than the RDX. Honda needs more practice with turbo.

But the main reason why Honda doesn't use turbos in their mainstream models is because they didn't want to take the "easy" way out to achieve 100hp/L back with the b16

[curik]

Thats a very conservative japanese mindset. It's like in the WWII, using samurais instead of rifles??! But thinking about it, japanese makers think that turbos are only for performance oriented cars (colt ralliart, evo, wrx, mps, etc) whereas europeans use turbos to downsize engines (E200K, A4 1.8 TFSI, Audi A6 2.0TFSI, golf 1.4TSI, etc). Fuel economy reasons? The 335i can achieve similar economy to a euro when driven conservatively (look at EPA's website). But I agree with groovetek, honda needs to get a better engine. Look at BMW, AUdi and merc. Do they proudly slap a sticker to let ppl know there is VVT in their engines? It's like 10 yrs ago when jap cars slapping 16valve stickers on their cars. Utterly rubbish.

Honda: K24 since 2002 up to now
BMW: Vanos, valvetronic, bi-Vanos, direct injection, turbo, efficient dynamic
Audi: turbo, VIS, FSI, TFSI, TSI

[SPQR]

Thats a very conservative japanese mindset. It's like in the WWII, using samurais instead of rifles??

What? They used Samurai swords for a reason and not instead of rifles. Swords are for cutting. Rifles are for making holes. You'd use a sword for cutting a head off (which the Japanese did). A rifle might take many shoots before you'd snap through the last sinew.

[SPQR]

Regional pricing. In the US, the B6 A4 is only few thousand more than a TSX. Same for a BMW 325i. Luxury cars are overpriced here.

Yes, the great rip-off again. Even the new Accord is $15K-$20K more expensive in Australia than USA despite our version being made in low labour cost Thailand.


Amazing tuning potential is not specific to the 1.8T. It is because it is a turbo engine that a chip which increases the wastegate threshold pressure and adds more fuel that it gets more power from just a software change.

Having owned three turbo cars, this is somewhat true. It's much easier getting significant power boosts from turbocharged cars, particularly older ones with less sophisticated computers that don't try to return things to "normal".

Even new turbo cars and non-turbo cars can be cracked if there is a huge demand. Unfortunately, the Euro is not seen as a car bought by lots people interested in modifications so it's hard to get a tuner interested in having a proper go at cracking the computer if all he/she would achieve is selling to ten members of Ozhonda.

[aaronng]

Thats a very conservative japanese mindset. It's like in the WWII, using samurais instead of rifles??! But thinking about it, japanese makers think that turbos are only for performance oriented cars (colt ralliart, evo, wrx, mps, etc) whereas europeans use turbos to downsize engines (E200K, A4 1.8 TFSI, Audi A6 2.0TFSI, golf 1.4TSI, etc). Fuel economy reasons? The 335i can achieve similar economy to a euro when driven conservatively (look at EPA's website). But I agree with groovetek, honda needs to get a better engine. Look at BMW, AUdi and merc. Do they proudly slap a sticker to let ppl know there is VVT in their engines? It's like 10 yrs ago when jap cars slapping 16valve stickers on their cars. Utterly rubbish.

Honda: K24 since 2002 up to now
BMW: Vanos, valvetronic, bi-Vanos, direct injection, turbo, efficient dynamic
Audi: turbo, VIS, FSI, TFSI, TSI
Look at where Japan is coming from. After the war, they were probably hit with many trade sanctions to avoid a repeat and because of that, might have become more conscious about available resources, all the way up to the 90s.

Yes, a 335i when driven conservatively to EPA methods can match the Euro. But what about driving realistically. Most EPA numbers are almost unachievable, but with the Euro, I get close to the advertised 9.4L/100km in my daily driving. Can you do the same with a turbo engine? I know you can't in a WRX. You'd have to drive off boost to match EPA numbers.
Japan had 16valve engines (and stickers) back in 1983.

I'm not doubting that Honda needs more practice with turbo engines (which they should get through their diesel program), but other Japanese brands are pretty good with their tubos. Even Mitsubishi is going to release the Ralliart Lancer which is a step below the EVO but still has a turbo. Subaru has their turbo in the WRX, which was a reasonably priced, practical car (even came in wagon form). And Mazda had the MPS range, which combined comfort and performance in 1 package, unlike the EVOs.

[tRung]

I know its in a different league... Only thing whats holding me back is $$$ for the price ill be paying for a second hand A4 1.8TQ I can buy a 2008 BRAND NEW Euro all options included.

The thought of a brand new vehicle is very desirable...
Just a matter of time till i make up my mind.

[Feverpitched]

Get an Audi Trung. It'll match your phone ;)

[curik]

I will be trading my euro lux for a B5 S4. It has everything the euro has, but it has something the euro doesn't. 4WD and 195kw.

[Exar Kun]

I will be trading my euro lux for a B5 S4. It has everything the euro has, but it has something the euro doesn't. 4WD and 195kw.

Fingers crossed nothing goes wrong! I guess if you're out of new car warranty anyway and can afford the insurance and the maintenence bills the S4 is a great car. I test drove one a while back and loved it. Just owning a B5 already has scared me off having another for the time being.

[JunYu]

^ nice upgrade.

Any parts for sale :D?

[curik]

Haha yeap. Pullies, konis, eibach, injen cai, project u brake rotors, 6000k philips ultinon D2s bulbs, ss header, 5zigen exhaust, camber kit.

Exar_kun:

Yeah I will try to find one that has its major service done (cambelt change). So far a friend's b5 is holding up well apart from some worn out parts (groovetek's A4).

[JunYu]

pm sent :D

[Exar Kun]

Exar_kun:

Yeah I will try to find one that has its major service done (cambelt change). So far a friend's b5 is holding up well apart from some worn out parts (groovetek's A4).

Yup, it's just a matter of finding a good one. Certainly be patient in your search. In 12 months of ownership of my A4 I had the major service done, major oil leak fixed, sunroof fixed, central locking vacuum pump replaced, ABS module replaced and it still had a couple of minor issues here and there. I never got the chance to spend money on improving the car since I was forever fixing it. About $3500 in one year. That was enough for me so I sold it.

[sendok]

audi's service gonna be more than honda i guess.. and i love honda since i was born. so go with euro if i was you :D but i sold my euro already >.<"

[JunYu]

^ yeah, i think Audi dealers charge a little over $100 an hour for labor.

[tony1234]

Yup, it's just a matter of finding a good one. Certainly be patient in your search. In 12 months of ownership of my A4 I had the major service done, major oil leak fixed, sunroof fixed, central locking vacuum pump replaced, ABS module replaced and it still had a couple of minor issues here and there. I never got the chance to spend money on improving the car since I was forever fixing it. About $3500 in one year. That was enough for me so I sold it.
Like all cars you need to find a good one but none more so than an Audi.$3.5k in repairs in one year!Hmm,that'd be enough for me too.Exar Kun.How many Ks did you have on the car and how old was it when you bought it?

[Exar Kun]

It was 10 years old and had done 170000kms - so it was certainly no spring chicken! I should have waited until I found one with lower k's (I was after the V6 in particular because insurance on the turbo was $700 a year more).

My mechanic, who is a German car specialist, noted that B5 A4s were quite unreliable and even B6s had more than their fair share of issues compared to equivalent beemers and mercs.

So, just make sure that whatever you get is checked out by a specialist (not a dealer) before you hand over your hard earned and factor in a little bit more for ongoing maintenence than you would for a Japanese car. Insurance will be higher too.

Having said all that, the interior of the Audi is certainly a much nicer place to be with the quality of the finishes much higher than the Honda. And you certainly notice the higher levels of refinement too.