Building a street/track car

[qikteg]

My gen1 da3 has become my little project car, and I want something that I might be able to do some laps on at meets n gear like that, but it still needs to be street legal. I'm not hoping for anything spectacular in terms of power, just something i can fang around a track every now and then...

so what should i be considering if i want to put this together right? so far, this is what i've got (or am considering on getting).

Suspension
- 5 way adjustable tokico illuminas
- 24.5mm Upgrade Motoring Torsion bars
- Cusco Front strut bar
- Whiteline Rear Strut bar
- Whiteline front/rear sway bar
- Adjustable panhard rod

Motor
- D16A8/ZC motor (possibly building internals, forged rods, pistons)
- Adjustable cam gears
- after market camshafts (stage 2?)
- light weight flywheel
- Heavy duty clutch
- Full 2 inch exhaust, hi flow cat and HM Headers
- Hondata or Crome tuned (some form of tunable ecu)

Additional
- 45mm ITB's with removable plenum (for street legal/race)

Am i missing anything vital to get what i want?

[Benson]

Why not upgrade to a Bseries engine package?

[Centurius]

building a D16A8/ZC engine will probably cost you more than swapping to a B16/18 and lightly building that, because the D series parts are hard to come by, often needing to be custom made.
Though if you are set on the D (for ease of installation or whatever reason) snoop gee knows of a set of ITB's for sale :p, and forged parts are hard but by no means impossible to come by.
my D is fully built, low comp though. not sure where you'd find high comp parts, but some of the traders on turbod16.com might be able to help you out!

edit: also, if you want Hondata, you'll have to convert from obd0 to obd1. though i think chrome is more compatible
edit: check out crxaus if you're after D16/ZC info, as you'll find more relevance there than in integra specific forums

[Weq]

Unless you are turbocharging, i would swap out to a b-series.

I would also get an thermostated oil cooler and oil pressure, temp and water temp gauges for the track. U may also want some lightweight rims and track rubber.. Some type of bucket seat and removable harness. You should also look at the brakes, a standard setup will fade to useless within a few laps.

[fatboyz39]

just do all suspension bits, tryres and brakes. Forget the engine side for now. Mayb just let it breathe better with intake, headers and exhaust.

Suspension look into camber arms, race bushings, traction bars, 4 point bolt-in rollcage, good shocks and springs OR coilovers.

Brakes upgrade to DC2 VTI-R or Type R brakes at the very least. Good pads and rotors. Good set of R compound tyres and light weight rims.

Lighten the car as much as possible.

[e240]

Buy an Evo, leave it stock and be done with it...seriously.

[trism]

people who give recomendations like that deserve a punch in teh vagina

[e240]

people who give recomendations like that deserve a punch in teh vagina

Why? Its a fair comment providing an alternative option...You can mod a car to ends, and struggle to do times, when a late model car can do the same without alot of the pain (and still have a comfortable car)

e.g. Last round of the supersprints last year - a guy in a stock Evo with stock tyres pulled off easily 49s @ Oran Park, where others (namely - me) struggled to do 52s on Semis.

Ah, only the closed minded think like you..be abit more open minded ya.

[SPEEDCORE]

*nods* Cheaper in the long run, easier to drive quick and considerably safer.... However there will still be those, you included, that like to do things the hardway, for that little snippit of satisfaction that exists in 99% failure rate.

I swear honda owners are closet masochists for that reason. ;)

[e240]

I swear honda owners are closet masochists for that reason. ;)

Ya .. like me.. :o

[trism]

maybe so, but the OP didnt ask what car to buy, he asked for mods to do on his current car.

i know that theres always a faster car out there than mine, even when it is stock, and mine is modded. but that doesnt mean im gonna go out an buy it. maybe he doesnt like mitsubishis? maybe he is keeping the teg because he prefers the way it looks.

im far from close minded, but people who do give recomendations to buy a totally different car when that wasnt the question need to refrain from posting so often

:)

[trism]

*nods* Cheaper in the long run, easier to drive quick and considerably safer.... However there will still be those, you included, that like to do things the hardway, for that little snippit of satisfaction that exists in 99% failure rate.

I swear honda owners are closet masochists for that reason. ;)

exactly.

why am i planning on spending a total of around 25-30k on a k20 EG when for that price i can buy myself an r32 gtr, or similar...

because i want an eg, and i want the satisfaction of doing it myself, the hardway lol

[qikteg]

well, rather than argue in the face till i'm blue, lets just say i'm not going to buy an evo. so yes, if i wanted a street/track car, its a good idea, but its just not feasible.

and like i said at the beginning, i'm not looking for spectacular results or winning any time attacks or anything like that. i just reckon it looks fun being able to fang a car around the track as fast as possible, rather than do it on the streets. in the end, this is my hobby car, i've got a daily driver..

so in saying that, its the same reason why i'm not opting for a b-series swap, for a bit of a hobby, it just doesn't work out. i mean, i'd be looking at like $3.5k for a b16 or b18, plus an additional $2k for a hasport conversion kit (mounts, axles, looms etc). whereas a d16a8 i can pick up for under a grand, and the bits and pieces i can get gradually as the opportunities arise.

now, after explaining myself, here's some more technical questions.

1. I've currently got king springs. Yay or nay for track use?
2. For brake upgrades, is it easiest to upgrade to something thats still 4x100? so like dc2? or am i going to have to upgrade the hubs too?
3. So low compression is good for turbo? therefore high compression is good for n/a?
:o

[fatboyz39]

lol this thread will turn into a shit fight.....

To answer your question:

1. What spring rate? Im using king springs and there perfectly fine for track.
2. Yes Dc2 Brakes will be ok, another good combo ITR brake booster/MC, Use DC2 knuckle with ITR rotors and ITR calipers.
3. No comment.

[beeza]

Is that king shocks on stock shocks fatboy? That's the set up I got atm (king lows) + front and rear sway.Haven't track her YET but always wondered how it will go.

[trism]

lowered king springs on stock shocks=bad

the shocks will get rooted in no time

if you change springs, get matching shocks

kyb gas shocks ive heard are well with king springs

[fatboyz39]

I got king springs to make me springs how i wanted it too. There on Koni yellow shocks.

lowered springs on stock shocks = death.

[beeza]

Haha Thanks Fatboy.Was worried about that,on the street it's fine,just a corner at a time,but I could imagine it would be a lot different on the track,left,right,left,right...

[trism]

while it handles ok on the street, it will actually fuxxored the shocks.

and then one day bam, youll be springing all floaty

[Benson]

Why? Its a fair comment providing an alternative option...You can mod a car to ends, and struggle to do times, when a late model car can do the same without alot of the pain (and still have a comfortable car)

e.g. Last round of the supersprints last year - a guy in a stock Evo with stock tyres pulled off easily 49s @ Oran Park, where others (namely - me) struggled to do 52s on Semis.

Ah, only the closed minded think like you..be abit more open minded ya.

Leo are you regretting building your civic? You shouldn't be dude... EVO's are in a different league compare to Honda's... You will earn your respect more with a Honda than an EVO...

EVO drives themselves, while Honda's are more the driver which drives it. This is where i think people respect and admire that point...

Dont give up on your civic, we need more cars like yours out there to show what honda's are really made off.. dont be phased with the big power cars like the EVO's, GTR, Sti's and etc...

[Hipowerracing]

"1. What spring rate? Im using king springs and there perfectly fine for track."

thats awesome.... :thumbsup:

but i think really for track use.. get some aftermarkets coilovers...there is a huge range to choose from this days..

[siksivic]

ivan stop playing COD4 and go to work

[BlitZ]

lol this thread will turn into a shit fight.....

To answer your question:

1. What spring rate? Im using king springs and there perfectly fine for track.
2. Yes Dc2 Brakes will be ok, another good combo ITR brake booster/MC, Use DC2 knuckle with ITR rotors and ITR calipers.
3. No comment.

IF you are after performance springs look beyond king springs:cool: ahahah...
try some eibachi sportsline or neuspeed race.... then you will know what i mean.


Off the shelf king springs, both the performance one and super low are softer than OEM ITR and CTR springs...

off the top of my head.. OEM ITR is like 250/250 where king is seomthing like 225/160


OK... Lets put it this way.. I can let someone borrow a stock pair of EM1 front springs.. wack them in there.. If your performance doesnt improve over off the shelf kings you can just keep them...

Ive been through all the below on the track :
Jumbos
Eibach pro kit
eibach sportsline
whitline control
Neupseed
King springs
OEM ITR springs
Lovell

I rate the springs in the following order for track:

Neuspeed Race>Eibach Sports> Eibach ProKit >OEM ITR>Jumbos (but uncapped bs and sags)>Whitline control>Kings>lovells

[BlitZ]

Why? Its a fair comment providing an alternative option...You can mod a car to ends, and struggle to do times, when a late model car can do the same without alot of the pain (and still have a comfortable car)

e.g. Last round of the supersprints last year - a guy in a stock Evo with stock tyres pulled off easily 49s @ Oran Park, where others (namely - me) struggled to do 52s on Semis.

Ah, only the closed minded think like you..be abit more open minded ya.

Leo... I have been in the same boat..
I was aiming for the 1:12 around the old wakefield.. Then my mate comes with an almost stock evo (just coilies and semis) and gets a 1:06 (ASTRO, paul).

Its like what the heck.. So i packed my bags and moved on.. ahaah

[Hipowerracing]

ivan stop playing COD4 and go to work

MAN.. that game is awesome:thumbsup:

[qikteg]

No entirely sure of the spring rate with the kings, i think you can only get one type with my model integra (lows? super lows?) anyway, they're being paired with the 5 way adjustable tokico illuminas. can't find koni yellows anywhere, so they'll have to do. i know there is a ground control coilover sleeve kit available, possible a neuspeed as well. will need to look harder for that.

dc2 brake upgrade sounds good. whats the liklihood of needing custom fabrication to mount them?

[e240]

Oh no - I love my Civic, I'm keeping this one forever! I don't want an Evo or Rex or Whatever - (maybe the new R35 GTR).

My post was more the original poster to consider alternatives before committing. Its fine and easy to say they want a track car but it always good to weigh all options.



Leo are you regretting building your civic? You shouldn't be dude... EVO's are in a different league compare to Honda's... You will earn your respect more with a Honda than an EVO...

EVO drives themselves, while Honda's are more the driver which drives it. This is where i think people respect and admire that point...

Dont give up on your civic, we need more cars like yours out there to show what honda's are really made off.. dont be phased with the big power cars like the EVO's, GTR, Sti's and etc...

[Weq]

It kind of seems to me like u just want a track 'style' car. The look of a track car just to show off to your friends?? Because all the mods you have listed so far would probably make you slower around the track then the average corrolla.. Putting kings springs on stock shocks isnt my idea of a good suspension setup. Coilovers or adjustable shocks are the VERY least.

Oh and b-series conversations arnt that hard. You can do them in your driveway. 90-120kW is acheiveable with no internal mods. NA D-series is just stupid. U can throw 4grand into them and not even push out 90kw.

[qikteg]

It kind of seems to me like u just want a track 'style' car. The look of a track car just to show off to your friends?? Because all the mods you have listed so far would probably make you slower around the track then the average corrolla.. Putting kings springs on stock shocks isnt my idea of a good suspension setup. Coilovers or adjustable shocks are the VERY least.

Oh and b-series conversations arnt that hard. You can do them in your driveway. 90-120kW is acheiveable with no internal mods. NA D-series is just stupid. U can throw 4grand into them and not even push out 90kw.

i'm not sure where you got the idea that i was using king springs on stock shocks.. i think i've mentioned at least twice that i'm using 5-way adjustable tokico illuminas... read the first post, then tell me what you think a good suspension set up is, keeping in mind that coilovers don't exist for the da3.

and whats a track "style" car anyway? big numbers on the doors, racing stripes, fake roll cage, one headlight removed? none of them are on my list. and i'm not out to beat any average corollas. in fact, i'm not out to beat anything. just want to know what its like to drive on a track.

yeah yeah i know, b vs d blah blah blah. why not k20? anyway, i'm goin with the a8/zc, and thats really all that matters. i'm not out to build a monster d thats 200kws... if anything, i just want something thats responsive.


lol this thread will turn into a shit fight.....

[beeza]

That's what I want too,responsive + good for a daily,fun to drive and the occasional tracking,may become more :) all in a 96EK1 Civic Sedan.What engine + mods would you guys recommend for that please.

[beeza]

I wish U would hang out here a lot more Weq...I really enjoy reading your posts.
In all honesty,I'm TORN!!!! between a turbo d and a b series.Have U also owned a b? Can U give me a brief review summary on each etc. I just need help with this plz....

[fatboyz39]

B-turbo .. dont waste your moeny on a D-turbo

[nigs]

Why? Its a fair comment providing an alternative option...You can mod a car to ends, and struggle to do times, when a late model car can do the same without alot of the pain (and still have a comfortable car)

e.g. Last round of the supersprints last year - a guy in a stock Evo with stock tyres pulled off easily 49s @ Oran Park, where others (namely - me) struggled to do 52s on Semis.

Ah, only the closed minded think like you..be abit more open minded ya.

Aww yer, you tell it sister.
But he speaks the truth though.

The more expensive cars have the luxury of being fast yet still provide some comfort. All at a price of course.

But some may still choose the harder route due to class limitations.
NA 4cyl FTW!

And half the time you're keeping up with above mentioned cars anyway.

Well atleast the stock ones.....
Evo 6, WRX, XR8/SS.
With only 101kw and no LSD, I ran quicker times with only street tyres (messed up from Motorkhana might I add).

Another thing to consider is the weight difference.
You can't throw a 1500kg car into a corner like a toy :(
Honda's on the other hand :thumbsup:

Oh how I miss that.

Solution?
Buy both cars. :D

[beeza]

B-turbo .. dont waste your moeny on a D-turbo

I would Love too but I need to do a manual conversion at the same time.Looking to spend around 4k.

[Weq]

i'm not sure where you got the idea that i was using king springs on stock shocks.. i think i've mentioned at least twice that i'm using 5-way adjustable tokico illuminas... read the first post, then tell me what you think a good suspension set up is, keeping in mind that coilovers don't exist for the da3.

and whats a track "style" car anyway? big numbers on the doors, racing stripes, fake roll cage, one headlight removed? none of them are on my list. and i'm not out to beat any average corollas. in fact, i'm not out to beat anything. just want to know what its like to drive on a track.

yeah yeah i know, b vs d blah blah blah. why not k20? anyway, i'm goin with the a8/zc, and thats really all that matters. i'm not out to build a monster d thats 200kws... if anything, i just want something thats responsive.

Ahh sorry, it was another guy who had the stock shocks.

"just want to know what its like to drive on a track."

Just keep your car stock then. Dont come into a racing forum and ask how to make your car a track car, unless you are after some contructive critisim on how to make your car handle well and make your engine competitive. Seriously. I dont browse n00b forums for a reason. If u want to pose, go pose.

This isnt a D vs B vs K debate. Its about value for money engine setups for a specific application. Your D wont be responsive unless you know what you are doing. It wont make any power unless u know what you are doing. the DOHC D's are slugs. Responsive doesnt belong in the same sentance as it. But hey, what would i know.

[Weq]

I wish U would hang out here a lot more Weq...I really enjoy reading your posts.
In all honesty,I'm TORN!!!! between a turbo d and a b series.Have U also owned a b? Can U give me a brief review summary on each etc. I just need help with this plz....

If you got a D, turbo it. Its the only acceptable mod for a D. Everything else is a waste of time. If u got a B, turbo it. If u want big power, swap in a b and turbo it. Anything upto a 180kW, the D is acceptable and doesnt require half the cost. If u want to go above, the B starts to get a little cheaper and more value for money. It all depends on your skills and what kind of investment you wish to make.

Ive driven many engine swaps, D B K H. I borrowed a guys JDM b-series swap, type-R gearbox and headers. It was actually really fun, would chirp into 3rd gear if i pushed it. Made some wonderful noise. But they lack torque like nothing else. Ive driven turbo Bs ranging from 150kW to 250kW. They are very fun, and the 250kW would of had to be my favourite street setup ever. Turbo D's develop alot more torque, and a 150kW D (acheiveable on stock internals) is alot quicker and more fun then a turbo B of the same power. In gear acceleration is great, 3rd gear will outpull alot of faster cars. THE B may outshine at 180km/hr plus, but thats only cause there are better choices of gearboxs/ratios.

My best advice, keep what u have cause its cheap if u blow it up. Get a 10-12psi kit and go have some B-eating fun. 140kW will put u on par with a K swap, for alot less time and money. And there is no reason why u cant use a turbo setup for the track. It takes a little getting used too, u have to approach is differently then an NA setup, but u can keep it balanced and destroy your competition. Just make sur eu got a nice mechnical LSD (Quaife/OBX).

[beeza]

Thanks Weq!
Cheers mate!

[qikteg]

Ahh sorry, it was another guy who had the stock shocks.

"just want to know what its like to drive on a track."

Just keep your car stock then. Dont come into a racing forum and ask how to make your car a track car, unless you are after some contructive critisim on how to make your car handle well and make your engine competitive. Seriously. I dont browse n00b forums for a reason. If u want to pose, go pose.

This isnt a D vs B vs K debate. Its about value for money engine setups for a specific application. Your D wont be responsive unless you know what you are doing. It wont make any power unless u know what you are doing. the DOHC D's are slugs. Responsive doesnt belong in the same sentance as it. But hey, what would i know.

look, i'm all about the constructive critique, god knows you've got to be ready to expect it if you ever post about anything. but saying that i'm building a track "style" car or that i'm "posing" or showing off to my friends? none of that is constructive. I'd feel differently if i was putting unrealistic expectations on the table, like asking you what i need to do to build a Type R beating D, or a 1 minute wakefield time attack machine... but i haven't.

and since when do i need to have race proven experience to ask a question? i was under the misconception that maybe because my post was about track racing, that it should go into the relevant "track/drag" racing thread?

i don't deny you know what you're talking about, and anything you say is probably more than i know. but seriously, whats wrong with wanting to give something a go? just because i don't live and breathe high performance track cars, i should automatically just not be interested in trying at all, and just keep things stock?

i appreciate you've commented on things like brakes, cooling, traction and such, but why not give me constructive comments on handling? you tell me that the d's are slugs and unresponsive unless i do things right... so what things can i do to make a responsive d?

[Weq]

Maybe you should of phrased your question a little better. Maybe posed a budget. If you hadnt noticed, this section isnt used by n00bs looking at doing street car that can survive a track session, I guess thats what your asking??

And you go ahead and rattle of a list of mods that i certainly would be looking at for such a car. ITB's on a D-series would be trying to acheive maximum performance. They certainly dont come cheap and certainly arnt the most street friendly setup. You can understand my confusion cant you?

Ok here is my advice.

Go get a whiteline catalog. And get a full handling pack. This includes upgrading all your bushings. This takes all the guess work out of it. These guys make a fantastic handling package that will transform the feel of your car. Thsi is what we used back in the day for all our handling needs. It saves u buying a heep of useless JAP parts just because a bunch of ricers run them and they seem popular.

Sways F/R inc chasis re-enforcement
Tie bar
Camber arms
Progrssive springs and koni shocks
Bushings

Brakes;
Look at a BBk from the states. Some kits let u put bigger discs with stock caliper. IMO DC2/EK conversion is a waste of time (ive done it). Just get some slotted discs and track pads for your sessions. braided brake lines and track quality fluid.

You engine. If u dont want to spend money on a swap, forget about ALL your mods you listed. These are the only things id be doing.

* ~8lb Findeza flywheel
* Action 1MS clutch
* OBX LSD
* Pod filter and intake pipe
* 2" exhaust, as straight as possible. maybe a cheap header, but not essential.
* Hondata s200 with launch control and full throttle shift + tune
* Thermostated oil cooler, upgraded radiator
* Lightweigth rims + rcompound tyres

Everything else you do is a waste of time. The above engine will be alot more rev happy, so you could think of it as being 'more responsive'. But i still maintain DOHC D's are not responsive. They are a slug like a SR20DE.

[beeza]

Is a d turbo at 10-12 psi good to run on stock internals? say with 100,000km on the clock.

[string]

Don't bother with R-compound tyres until you can't go any faster on street tyres. You'll get many track days from the grand you'll save. Seat time makes you faster than any other modification. Street tyres only wear badly on a track when you are driving badly (i.e. plowing in too hot into a corner. Front tyres squealing ALL THE TIME will kill the tyre fast).

[pwr2w8]

i have a d series in my civic and i make 195kws front wheels with 20psi on 350hp turbo, very responsive, 14psi daily driven 165kws.
i have had alot of turbo d's and i know them in and out, on stock internals i wouldn't run more than 10psi intercooled, there weak anything over 10psi.
As for going N/A in a d series you can make some excellent power but it will cost ya, here is a site for more info
http://jgenginedynamics.com/Adobe%20pdf%20files/ZC%20parts%20by%20JGE.pdf

[beeza]

Is there anyone you would recommend to do head work etc on a d?

[AsH_]

people who give recomendations like that deserve a punch in teh vagina

mangina?

[trism]

same thing

[GTRVspec95]

Hard to go past a full Type-R B series transplant when building a track car.

The factory Honda forged engine allows you to do the laps without worrying to much about rods and pistons flying out the block as a turbo setup would; well one that hasn't had a truck load of money spent on forging.

Also the factory LSD and gearbox help with putting the power down to the ground rather then the gear ratio's of a D series engine with no LSD.

[fatboyz39]

Buy a Integra Type R (Dc2r) if you have the money...!

[SuperDave]

I'd say do some basic prep to get it to a standard where you can get it to the track to get some practice and a baseline lap time. There is no point in doing mods if you don't know if they helped out or not. Then once you have hit the wall with what you have, or something breaks/wears out, then replace it with an upgraded part. I'm no Honda expert, best early items to start with would be;
Plenty of track time
Race driver training
Good tyres
Upgraded brake pads, also remove the splash guards behind the rotors as they hold heat in.

Then move onto other items like spring/coilover upgrades and other suspension chassis items. As for big brake kits you need to think about whether you will see a return in lap times for the money spent. You spend very little time on the brakes around a track. Sticking some good pads in, like Ferodo DS2500, would be one of the best starts.

As for engine work, stick to basics like intake and exhaust. If the D series is anything like the Toyota 1zz it is still cheaper to blow two of them then to upgrade the internals or swap to a 2zz engine, gearbox and wiring harness.

Just slowly upgrade as that way you can see what works and what doesn't and promptly stop using the part that is slowing you down.

[GTRVspec95]

Honda expert, best early items to start with would be;
Plenty of track time
Race driver training
Good tyres
Upgraded brake pads, also remove the splash guards behind the rotors as they hold heat in.


Thats what Gran Turismo and Forza are for :D