VTEC and PETROL

[.::F[L]Y::.]

hi guys/girls.

tried to do a search on the matter but nothing sufficient came up...

so just wanted to know does different petrol types ie optimax, ultimate or synergy 8000 have an impact on how hard vtec kicks in??

because from personal experience i think synergy 8000 gives vtec more ommmph and vtec feels better as oppose to optimax but then again it could be just me..

btw the type of car im driving is a honda civic coupe VTIR...

cheers

[cdpfxz]

um id say its all in your head...i usually use ultimate but have tried others but makes no difference really...theyre all pretty much the same

[.::F[L]Y::.]

im new to vtec...so when vtec kicks in the whole car feels like it flies and that u get a sensation of the whole car being light...

[Rowie]

dyno dave ran a fuel test and found mobil 98 octane to have better HP with the honda engines.

[FIT]

i feel that with honda cars synergy 8000 is more responsive

[redliner]

dunno the diff really
i have to use premium unleaded either way

[.::F[L]Y::.]

i have only been using optimax as it is cheaper than synergy haahaha...

[fusion_VTi]

imo oil quality plays a bigger part in the vtec kick, not too sure about the fuel though...

[vti-2]

Y::.']im new to vtec...so when vtec kicks in the whole car feels like it flies and that u get a sensation of the whole car being light...

LOL! I'm in tears, please stop making me laugh...

This is exactly why Honda owners get bagged so much. VTEC does NOT make all this so called power when it kicks in. Sure you might get the sensation that you are 'flying' but when reality actually kicks you realise its the noise VTEC makes that makes it seem like you are hitting this power band.

I think you should read up on the basics of VTEC, what it is, what it does and why Honda introduced it. VTEC is not like a turbo as lots of Honda drivers tend to describe it. IMO it basically just makes a shit load of noise when it starts until you've decided to slam it into the next gear.

Anyway, theres a big thread floating around about premium fuel and which is better. You should do a search.

p.s. feel free to flame me but i've driven my fair share of VTEC Honda's and know what VTEC feels like. In fact... i didn't really feel that much to be honest. But loved the sound it made! :D

[SXYSOL]

come to tassie cos the only choice of fuel you have here is premium or regular....be nice if we could just get optimax...

[2ds]

broom broom

-2ds

[SIKCVC]

i dunno VTI-2... my car did have a rather large spike in power/torque at the VTEC cross over... Considering tonight there was bearly a tone change at all and I could still feel the extra pull at the cross over... maybe you've just driven shit cars.

[vti-2]

i dunno VTI-2... my car did have a rather large spike in power/torque at the VTEC cross over... Considering tonight there was bearly a tone change at all and I could still feel the extra pull at the cross over... maybe you've just driven shit cars.

Ok. I've got a deal for you. Why don't you take me for a drive in your car so i can feel this VTEC cross over. I want to feel this "extra pull" so many Honda drivers talk about. Would you be up for that? Cause out of all the N/A Honda's ive been in and driven (and there have been a SHITLOAD) i haven't felt this "pull", this surge of power, that so many Honda owners claim they have.

Oh yeah, and i immediately drive shit cars cause i haven't felt teh VTECH pull. I guess that makes the following cars i've driven shit: stock DC2 (VTi-R), slightly modified (I/H/E) DC2 (VTi-R), stock and modified DC2R, stock EK4, heavily modified EK4 (I/H/E, Cams, ECU), SOHC VTEC Accord, plus several other N/A Honda's.

Yeah right mate. Try pulling my other leg as well. :rolleyes:

[jenova]

maybe you are insensitive? :D joking

I can definitely feel the "pull" when vtec engage, it might not be that obvious in first gear but it is more significant in 2nd or 3rd gear. You can say that I have sensitive butt dyno or my mind is playing tricks due to the vtec roar. On a slightly damp road I get wheelspin when vtec engage, I think that's the best indication of abrupt change in power. ;)

[SiR JDM]

im fully with jenova...
my b16a... first gear not so much, but 2nd and 3rd definatly .. althought they're is an increase in noise, its not just a placebo affect.. if u look at the tacho, ur speed increases alot faster in the upper band.... as well as the *pull* of the tec..

driving my friends JDM h22a... there is most definatly a pull .. the higher (grammer?) torque of the 2.2 vtec definatly gives you a pull back ... not so much as turbo, but then again it doesn't just die like turbo...
to me turbo is like a **** tease :p...

But yea vti-2, im not doubting your experience or the range of which Honda cars you've driven, but maybe your like jenova said.. insensitive...
Maybe the rest of us are more sensitive to the vtec pull.. IMO its no where near as significant as a turbo pull, but it definatly exists.... =)

btw with petrol, ive also heard that the Mobile is best for vtec.. im not sure how tru that is.. i use Optimax or Synergy nearly all of the time because theres no mobile near my area =)

[.::F[L]Y::.]

Ok. I've got a deal for you. Why don't you take me for a drive in your car so i can feel this VTEC cross over. I want to feel this "extra pull" so many Honda drivers talk about. Would you be up for that? Cause out of all the N/A Honda's ive been in and driven (and there have been a SHITLOAD) i haven't felt this "pull", this surge of power, that so many Honda owners claim they have.

Oh yeah, and i immediately drive shit cars cause i haven't felt teh VTECH pull. I guess that makes the following cars i've driven shit: stock DC2 (VTi-R), slightly modified (I/H/E) DC2 (VTi-R), stock and modified DC2R, stock EK4, heavily modified EK4 (I/H/E, Cams, ECU), SOHC VTEC Accord, plus several other N/A Honda's.

Yeah right mate. Try pulling my other leg as well. :rolleyes:

maybe its just you man, but its not just me thats saying when vtec kicks in the car feels different, even my passengers can feel it too. And as i had mentioned earlier i did run a 'SEARCH' and the threads did not really answer my question.

In terms of engine oil i use the original honda oil...or should i be lookign into mobil one though ppl seem to say honda oil does the job...

[PhatSol]

Well we don't get Synergy here, and my old car was tuned on Optimax so i'm kinda biased. Also the BP servo told us to f*** off the other night, which makes the decision pretty easy now :rolleyes:

[EG5]

try mobil1 10-30 oil...

[SIKCVC]

I concour with Jenova and SiR_JDM... I wheel spin in first and second at the VTEC cross over in the wet, and because of a dodgy shock I get bad axel tramp in first in the dry. Look it how you will but there is a power/torque spike at the VTEC cross over... Admitedly no where near as large as Turbo 4 but there is still a spike and a steap increase to max power over the last 2400 RPM.

I'd say if you have a back ground of turbo cars you're more likly to be impervious to the extra pull felt at VTEC, I know driving SR20 180's etc the pull is NOTHING in comparison. But at the same time it did seem comparable to an R32 GTS-t as boost wound up once it was on though the stupid amount of torque kept you in the back of the seat.

hhhaaaaa I hate Victorian Power/weight laws... i'd kill for an FD right now.

[bizee_1]

hmm.... you could look at it in this perspective.

If Vtec was set to engage at 4000rpm, you would get noise, but wouldn't get the "pull" untill you reached 5.5k - 6k rpm still.

Guess what i am saying is, of course you'd feel some sort of a pull. The higher you go to redline, the more power it makes...(well to 7600rpm)

actually i don't know where i am going with this......night.


oh, i don't know which fuel kicks VTEC harder. As long as they are 98 octane :thumbsup:

[egSi]

vtec? pfft.

my non vtec pulls from 1grand :D

go vti2!!! im with you buddy!!!

[SiR JDM]

hhhaaaaa I hate Victorian Power/weight laws... i'd kill for an FD right now.

Speaking of which, technically is me driving my SIR hybrid illegle?

The way i see it, 1000kg per 125 kw? Right?

My EG6 block puts out 170hp (170/1.34 = 126.9 kw) and according to people ive spoken to, my Breeze shell weighs only 900kg...
Ive heard of the engine only being able to produce 160hp without assistance of octain boosters, but even then thats what, 119.4 kw for 900kg... still out of whack with the ratio aint it?

[ATSE]

Err i've driven a few honda's in my time... and I'm with Vic... this business of a Vtec kick... i've never encountered it before. Even in my car, the transistion is damm smooth, there is only a change in note... not the "kick" you guys have been talking about.

In regards to the kick... i think it is a drop in power just before the crossover due to the a/f mixture, but itz not enough to actually feel it. I mean cmon.. itz not boost you know.

And about fuel.. different states have different refinery's and also each petrol station can have different quality fuels (Bad batch, dirty pumps, amount of time the fuel has been stored etc). In victoria.. i heard from someone who works in one of the refinery's that BP Ultimate comes from the Shell refinery... but then they add their own additives to it.

[SPEEDCORE]

I give ya 6 months........ then you'll start thinking..... man this thing is slow!

[SIKCVC]

I've had it for 3 and i know its slow... like i said if I could drive an FD I would but I cant. and theres nothing out there NA that will keep up so meh i deal.

No SiR JDM, its based on factory figures... the engine is a mod so there are no factory figures... your cars safe.

Just quickly for those who say that there is no "kick"... then why the wheel spin at the cross over? I cant hit VTEC in the wet in first gear.

Maybe its something to do with the JDM engine.

Pfft power to 7600 HAHAHA nuts to that :P mine made power to 8100 :P

[vti-2]

Just quickly for those who say that there is no "kick"... then why the wheel spin at the cross over? I cant hit VTEC in the wet in first gear.

Maybe its something to do with the JDM engine.

Pfft power to 7600 HAHAHA nuts to that :P mine made power to 8100 :P

I'm still waiting on whether you accept my offer to ride shotgun in your car to feel this "kick" when you hit the VTECH y0! and also to experience the back breaking, neck snapping, traction breaking wheel spin when you hit teh VTECH. Cause the VTEC crossover is that powerful you feel the "kick" and hear the wheels breaking traction as they struggle to put down the next to stock N/A power.

Are you sure your not chirping cause your changing gears at high rpm? Cause my DC2 used to chirp in first and second when it was stock. But i never felt the VTEC kick. Plus the wheels NEVER broke traction (chirped) when i changed gears at 8000RPM.

You need to be taken for a drive in a turbo powered car that really does break traction and not simply chirp. I really really doubt you are "breaking traction" in your car, you are merely chirping between gear changes.

But hey, i'm willing to be proven wrong. And no one has stepped up yet. :rolleyes:

[type one]

yeah i take you for a spin in my DC2R... its no turbo but it breaks traction if i pip it right - ie misgear it LOL

v-tec ain't no turbo surge... never will be... but its got its merits (see article(s) Vti-2 is talking about peeps)...

anyway im no honda engineering expert, i know what i feel and i like it :thumbsup:

as for different branded fuels making vtec pull harder... i don't think so...

[SiR JDM]

Where are you from vti-2?
As far as i know, SKCVC drives a ZC, although JDM, its still only the SOHC eg5 Vti...

After my syncros hubs are replaced id be happy to take you for a ride in my JDM EG6 DOHC SIR... whic the vtec would be stronger ...
but i doubt it still dont think it prove much...If the list of cars uve driven consistis of:

"stock DC2 (VTi-R), slightly modified (I/H/E) DC2 (VTi-R), stock and modified DC2R, stock EK4, heavily modified EK4 (I/H/E, Cams, ECU), SOHC VTEC Accord, plus several other N/A Honda's.
then i doubt you can feel teh vtech kick y0. that we all imagine ^^ :P in my lil ol thing ..
But mayb since the eg breeze with a b16a is significantly ligher than a b16a in an ek hatch... so if u want i can take you for a ride.. but i still think your just imune to the slight.. (and it is only slight compared to turbos)... increase in power..

Have you ever driven a JDM h22a? my friends one is very quick .. and u can definatly feel the increase in power when tEh vteCh kicks ! :P

btw - every passanger ive taken in my ride has felt the vtec pull.. even on a 1.6 like mine... and 1/2 of them i dont tell them so they're not prepared for it ... so its unbias comments of "wOw thats so much faster " that i hear ?

[SIKCVC]

I cant be ****ed writing all that out again... all I can say VTi-2 is to read over what I said before you post. I never said it was anything like a turbo... in fact i said it didn't even compare to a boosted 4. Everyone knows the idea of VTEC is to keep sufficient fuel flow at higher revs.

Dont select bits and peices of what I said and then rebut against the other stuff without quoting it because If anyone takes to time to read what I said you'll look foolish.

The ZC is actually a DOHC non Vtec 1.6 I own a Gen 2 B16a 125kwt edition.

If you read what I said carefully I actually never mentioned shifting. I said that In the wet, in first gear my car wheel spins at the Cross over from the low cam to the high cam.

I will concead after testing it out today there is no KICK like in a porly tuned 4cyl turbo... But there is definatly an accelerated increase in power... as in the power increases at a faster rate than it did on the lower cam... for obvious reasons. This coupled with the noise thats produced can give the sensation of a kick.

That is all I have to say on the matter.

[wynode]

I wheel spin second and i don't have VTEC. SO what does that mean?

VTEC crossover does give you more power, but its nothing like the feel of coming onto boost.

Anyways, Mobil 8000 for me too.

[CRX-Ando]

Mine is tuned for BP Ultimate so that's her choice of fuel...just get some VTEC boost guys...wheelspin, noise & pull :thumbsup:

[.::F[L]Y::.]

some of you guys r saying that between the 98 ron petrols there is no difference but then again why do some ppl say their cars are tuned to a certain type like ultimate??

[SiR JDM]

The ZC is actually a DOHC non Vtec 1.6 I own a Gen 2 B16a 125kwt edition.


Sorry my bad, i knew that, it was early and i wasn't thinkin.. obviously..

I never knew u got a SIR tho.. gw bro :D last time i spoke was just the ZC but i guess that was a while back :p

[wynode]

Opinions are like assholes.....everyones got one.

Anyway, i'm assuming what CRX_Ando means is that he has an aftermarket ECU which was tuned while he was running BP ultimate.

I've tried all the fuels and found BP Ultimate and Mobil 8000 to be pretty similar. But I chose Mobil because there are more servos around my area. Optimax I found doesn't rev out as nicely as Mobil/BP

[PhatSol]

Y::.']some of you guys r saying that between the 98 ron petrols there is no difference but then again why do some ppl say their cars are tuned to a certain type like ultimate??

As wynode says, they are talking about aftermarket ECU's. The optimum timing curve can be slightly diffrent for diffrent brands of fuel. So say for example that Optimax can support an extra 2 degrees of timing (not necessarily making more power), and then you go and put in Ultimate, the engine might detonate. That is why people stick to the fuel the motor was tuned on, especially if it was an agressive tune.

[CRX-Ando]

Y::.']some of you guys r saying that between the 98 ron petrols there is no difference but then again why do some ppl say their cars are tuned to a certain type like ultimate??

My bad here as I didn't elaborate...as Wynode has mentioned, my aftermarket ECU has been tuned to run optimally on Ultimate...

[SiR JDM]

Is it bad to mix between say Synergy and Optimax?

Sometimes if im running low i just choose whichever is closest to me?
Does it matter? Should i just find 1 and stick to it?

[SIKCVC]

I wouldn't stress about using different 98 octane fuels... I know some places i buy optimax the car runs briliant... but it sucks balls on synergy struggles to get up to top speed. Other times I've put in optimax and the car takes forever to get to red line... but its more of an issue with the JDM engines because of the fuel they have over there.

wynoda... I'm not talking about waiting till the large lobe kicks in and then booting it... anyone can get their car too wheel spin doing that. I just mean normal accelerating, giving it a fair bit of stick but nothing to break traction then hitting VTEC and it starts to wheel spin. Its also because i have hard tyres but never the less i can take off and drive up to 5700 without wheel spin fine, its just as soon as i cross onto the larger cam lobe.

[jko2]

yep. vtec has a kick. my friends last car, dc2r had a pretty strong one (it was modified though.. stock im pretty sure it still had a kick). even though it only lasts for alike a split second, coz they he had to change gears. his new car, a jdm dc5r doesn't have a kick, but more of a gradual pull from 3000rpm, and a harder pull at 5-6krpm.
and of course vtec is no subsitute for a turbo. i still wouldn't mind a h22a 4thgen lude though (wouldn't mind swapping my car for one for a little bit, just to experience some vtec).

[[twins]vtec]

try diving up a hill and VTEC it
ive tried it b4 and i was realli suprised on 2nd once i hit VTEC for me 4400rpm DC2
u definately felt a push
and also with wheelspin in the wet
ive copped wheelspin in 2nd once my secondary runners open at 5800rpm

[Setanta]

Like SIKCVC, my SiR's power delivery isn't linear like the EK4's it spikes on cam change, but mines a gen1 B16A and the engine management is different. I found Synergy 8000 to be the best in terms of milage, Optimax best in terms of price (I love my coles dockets) and Ultimate to be a poor cousin - but I got a few dirty batches and won't go back to it. In terms of power... they're all about the same and certainly have no differences in terms of VTEC crossover.

I really have to put this back in my sig for all the VTEK-YO FANBOIS:

k3nnis: Can you explain how VTEC feels like when it kicks in? Does it pin you back to the seat a little bit like a turbo?
sejanus: Imagine a incredibly tiny small turbo that for some bizarre reason takes 5500-6000rpm to make boost, and so small that it makes bugger all power, just an increase in noise
[b]...

I can understand the sentiment the way VTEC is bandied around by some :D YOu might get a spike - but you ain't getting a push. Go drive a turbo and you'll know what push is :D

As for spinning in when VTEC comes in... big deal - I've owned plenty of cars that spin when power delivery appears or when the engine dynamic changes - you don't need VTEC for that.

[vti-2]

I really have to put this back in my sig for all the VTEK-YO FANBOIS:

k3nnis: Can you explain how VTEC feels like when it kicks in? Does it pin you back to the seat a little bit like a turbo?
sejanus: Imagine a incredibly tiny small turbo that for some bizarre reason takes 5500-6000rpm to make boost, and so small that it makes bugger all power, just an increase in noise
[b]...

I can understand the sentiment the way VTEC is bandied around by some :D

Pete, you hit the nail on the head.

:thumbsup: :D

[geo41e]

umm..l must say...that in my D16a8..while l'm passanger...and car doesn't pull as hard as my mates EG civic with a b16a...l feel it even in first and 2nd..anyways..
m 2 cents.

[.::F[L]Y::.]

Is it bad to mix between say Synergy and Optimax?

Sometimes if im running low i just choose whichever is closest to me?
Does it matter? Should i just find 1 and stick to it?


i had a theory whereas optimax has cleaning agents to clean the engine and synergy 8000 is better for power if u mix the 2 together u would get a better performing petrol... :rolleyes:

[SiR JDM]

lol nice theory fly :P

[wynode]

So is it true that like in boosted car, VTEC doesn't hit with its 'full' effect in first gear ?

/sarcasm

[PhatSol]

After reading through this thread, it almost sounds like people think non-linear power delivery is a good thing!? Non linear power delivery is one of the reasons alot of turbo cars are no good on the track....

Anyway I thought we were talking about petrol here, not Nissan Vs Honda :p

[pornstar]

oh so thats why F1 honda engines were turbo.... insert sarcasm

[.::F[L]Y::.]

dont know if this is the case with all turbo cars but turbo cars have an awful petrol smell esp when your sitting in the backseat of the car

[DCLXVI]

yea, i can vouch for Sir JDM. i sat in his car before... i can feel the surge.. not like turbo boost but definitely some pull...

[ProECU]

It's shit in comparison.

Fuel stablity is based on the RON & MON(?) ratings of the fuel.
the further apart these ratings are, the less stable the fuel is.
This is the case with Shell Optimax. Not only that, but they use Toluene in their fuel.
Furthermore Its not a refined fuel, its chemically derived fuel, with additives such as Toluene.
This fuel goes off and has a very short shelf life.



Is it bad to mix between say Synergy and Optimax?

Sometimes if im running low i just choose whichever is closest to me?
Does it matter? Should i just find 1 and stick to it?

[Setanta]

After reading through this thread, it almost sounds like people think non-linear power delivery is a good thing!? Non linear power delivery is one of the reasons alot of turbo cars are no good on the track....

Ummm... George Fury's Bluebird might argue with you on that one, not to mention the dozens of Sierra Cosworths and the odd Skyline GTR who totally owned the falcodores of the time. Should I stop to mention the turbo RX7s that consistantly won the Bathurst enduro? Or maybe the F1 cars of the '80s???

Non of them were dropped because they were no good on the track... quite the reverse I think :D

[bennjamin]

oh god. Can i lock this already Win ? Most our members have already shown they certainly need to go back to school....VEETECH school myfriend ;)

I did just realise something too - "thinking"
Non linear power delivery is one of the reasons alot of turbo cars are no good on the track.... - is almost a direct quote from Fast n furious. Please little guys - dont say anything unless you actually know lol !!!

*runs away to lil stock veetech-whipping NON-VEETECH Si ...which uses up more oil than you noobs use in petrol in VEETECH.*

[pornstar]

bah shuddup ben, lets race ;)

[bennjamin]

bah shuddup ben, lets race ;)
I have found a good way to blow my clutch AND spin my main bearings... ITS ON :D:D:D

[SiR JDM]

It's shit in comparison.

Fuel stablity is based on the RON & MON(?) ratings of the fuel.
the further apart these ratings are, the less stable the fuel is.
This is the case with Shell Optimax. Not only that, but they use Toluene in their fuel.
Furthermore Its not a refined fuel, its chemically derived fuel, with additives such as Toluene.
This fuel goes off and has a very short shelf life.

thx for the info ProECU, Synergy is closer and usually cheaper so I guess ill stick with that =] ..

[PhatSol]

Learn how to read... I never said turbo cars are all crap on the track. All I said was that there are alot of turbo cars that are not good track cars due to the non linear power delivery. Of course there have also been alot of turbo cars that are good on the track. I never said there wasn't.

By the way, what was I quoting? I can't remember them saying anything like that in FnF:confused:

[Setanta]

Learn how to read... I never said turbo cars are all crap on the track. All I said was that there are alot of turbo cars that are not good track cars due to the non linear power delivery. Of course there have also been alot of turbo cars that are good on the track. I never said there wasn't.


I think the issue is that you are over-generalising (and generalising is a bad thing in the first place). It negates any argument you have completely. Back up your account with figures that aren't pulled from the air and you might enforce your credibility. If I used your logic, I could say that there are a lot of N.A. cars that are no good on the racetrack. EG: The Niki has a very linear power development... but I'd never race one :D

Please remember that while a lot of us like our Hondas and the VTEC technology, we're not fanbois of it and we know its limitations and what it does and doesn't do. VTEC does not make a track car. Drivers and a balanced package of powerplant, drivetrain, suspension and brakes etc makes a track car regardless of whether its N.A. or turbocharged.

[SiR JDM]

VTEC does not make a track car. Drivers and a balanced package of powerplant, drivetrain, suspension and brakes etc makes a track car regardless of whether its N.A. or turbocharged.

Spot on Setanta! :D

[PhatSol]

VTEC does not make a track car. Drivers and a balanced package of powerplant, drivetrain, suspension and brakes etc makes a track car regardless of whether its N.A. or turbocharged.

I know i know. Was just making comment on the idea of the VTEC and turbo 'push'. All I was trying to say is that a bigger push isn't necessarily better, especially if it upsets the balance of the car.

[pornstar]

i fink most ppl try and say that hondas were made for turns etc etc, i think its better to say hondas are generally a well balanced car.

[.::F[L]Y::.]

i fink most ppl try and say that hondas were made for turns etc etc, i think its better to say hondas are generally a well balanced car.

we all know that in a straight line a turbo car would rape an NA car, but then things tend to be different on the track, although turbo cars may have straight line speed they may not have the cornering ability as most have to slow down much more than a NA car to go around a bend, they are clips of this on the net... :honda:

[SIKCVC]

FLY prepare to be Flamed... Andy has proven that theory wrong so many times. Its just hear say from all the NA fans, dont treat it as gospel.

[Setanta]

Y::.']we all know that in a straight line a turbo car would rape an NA car, but then things tend to be different on the track, although turbo cars may have straight line speed they may not have the cornering ability as most have to slow down much more than a NA car to go around a bend, they are clips of this on the net... :honda:

Bathurst: Godzilla (Turbo) > Cosworth Sierras (Turbo) > BMW (NA) > Falcodores (NA).

I disagree on the cornering point too. Maybe there are clips on the net (if it's on the net it must be true right? :D), but once again it's a gross over-generalisation.

Cornering is based on driver ability/knowledge of the track, weight displacement, chassis development, suspension and brake setup and having the correct steering geometry, not about being turbocharged or NA. The only way turbos come into the equation is in terms of the turbo lagging then cutting in and breaking your line. How often does that happen nowadays though?

Sorry - I don't buy the argument at all. Can we please stop with the generalisations?

[PhatSol]

The only way turbos come into the equation is in terms of the turbo lagging then cutting in and breaking your line. How often does that happen nowadays though?

Not a problem these days if your turbo setup is "well balanced" (thanks pornstar :p ) ... But IMO there are quite a few turbo cars you meet on the street that have major issues.

[bennjamin]

This topic has crossed into " NA vs Turbo" - which dosent belong at all in a lowly "civic" thread - or reflects at all the initial topics title and point.

Open up another in lounge if you want to barble on about the pros and cons of turbos blah blah blah !

For now...*locks*