Water Leak

[dsp26]

Hi All,

Had a look around the car and did a bit of research... just wondering if anyone could confirm the below for me.. Thanks.

- Water Leak: Passenger side around belts = Water Pump?
- Use B16 water pump only for my B16a, B18c7 has too many teeth and spins less...

If changing water pump also change:
- Timing belt
- Tensioner + bolt (Honda Only)

Access to change belt (assuming this isn't engine out job):
- Remove Passenger wheel
- Undo all engine mounts except Driver side
- remove extractors and lower engine
- open timing cover



Search keywords: Timing Belt, Tensioner, Water Pump, Water Leak

[teh_mechanic]

yep if the water looks like its coming from the front of the engine then your best bet is the water pump is leaking.
use a b16 water pump.i think b18 pumps are used on high revving b16 applications because of the less teeth,so it spins less at high rpm,which reduces the chance of cavitation (dont know how to spell it) in the cooling system.

Changing the belt and tensioner is recommended just because its a big job to get to the water pump and the belt has to come off anyway,so it just saves on doubling up on labour when you want to change the belt later.it is not absolutely necessary to change the belt and tensioner though,if they are over 40000kms old id prob change them just for convenience.

just undo the engine mount that prevents you from getting the timing cover off.shouldnt be any need to remove extractors or any other engine mounts and all that jazz.

if you are doing this job yourself,ensure you are fully aware of how to keep your cam timing at top dead centre of cylinder 1 when you take the belt off and put the new one on,or you could do some real damage to your engine

[dsp26]

yep if the water looks like its coming from the front of the engine then your best bet is the water pump is leaking.
use a b16 water pump.i think b18 pumps are used on high revving b16 applications because of the less teeth,so it spins less at high rpm,which reduces the chance of cavitation (dont know how to spell it) in the cooling system.

Changing the belt and tensioner is recommended just because its a big job to get to the water pump and the belt has to come off anyway,so it just saves on doubling up on labour when you want to change the belt later.it is not absolutely necessary to change the belt and tensioner though,if they are over 40000kms old id prob change them just for convenience.

just undo the engine mount that prevents you from getting the timing cover off.shouldnt be any need to remove extractors or any other engine mounts and all that jazz.

if you are doing this job yourself,ensure you are fully aware of how to keep your cam timing at top dead centre of cylinder 1 when you take the belt off and put the new one on,or you could do some real damage to your engine

thanks for the info... first belt/chain sorta work on a Honda i'm gonna try.

so no need to lower the engine, just remove passenger mount for access to timing cover area via engine bay and wheel arch?

[teh_mechanic]

yeah u should be fine without lowering the engine,only reason the engine would need to be lowered is to get access to undo the crank bolt.but from wat i remember on my b16 there was heaps of room and you can get at the crank bolt easily after removing the inner wheel guard cover bit.

[fatboyz39]

remove extractors? don't think its needed.

just read up the honda manual. Its not hard if you follow the steps.

[backyard boy]

dont forget to check ur cam shalf seals and crank shalf seal when u change the water pump....i replaced them same time.
good luck!

[dsp26]

Thanks all. any civic manual w/ B16a engine will do yeah?

Also I managed to stop the leak altogether or it's very minimal now... removed the 1.3bar rad cap that was on and put the oem 1.1bar one back on.

stupid high pressure caps...

[beeza]

So that cap was causing the leak around the water pump?

[destrukshn]

So that cap was causing the leak around the water pump?
didn't stop it.
lol.
it made it a bit better.


you will need to loosen the lower passenger mount, to take off the a/c belt.
so either way, it will lower the engine.
have fun with it dude.
lol.

[dsp26]

So that cap was causing the leak around the water pump?


sort off...

water pump seal was weak or going... higher pressure cap prevented pressurised water to go into reservoir hence leak out the waterpump seal is my theory.

don't get it though considering i have buddyclub fan switch and low temp thermostat also... :/

[dsp26]

So that cap was causing the leak around the water pump?


sort off...

water pump seal was weak or going... higher pressure cap prevented pressurised water to go into reservoir hence leak out the waterpump seal is my theory.

don't get it though considering i have buddyclub fan switch and low temp thermostat also... :/

[beeza]

I heard the low temp thermostat puts your car/ECU in a cold air loop,when would U use one?

[destrukshn]

sooo when are you going to attempt this?
if this is the first time taking off the timing belt, the bolt may be a ****, i will aso suggest, changing the cam seals and crank seals.
the tensioner and bolt isn't really needed.

[dsp26]

sooo when are you going to attempt this?
if this is the first time taking off the timing belt, the bolt may be a ****, i will aso suggest, changing the cam seals and crank seals.
the tensioner and bolt isn't really needed.

going to attempt hopefully next weekend... or I may get Roy to help me out if he can... he works with you now i think (bro of my team manager).

cam seals i already changed along with the rest of the rocker ones when i got the car...

crank seal... i need the tool to remove the bolt right? and which tight bolt do you speak off?


Beeza: thats true... i put it there in combo of fan switch/ rad cap/ thermo to reduce temps as i rev my car a lot... just trying to learn my lesson from my cooling issue days with nissan... also primarily caused by the rad cap which killed almost every hose and seal in the car :/

[destrukshn]

nah, the crank seal sits behind the crank gear.
the crank pully tool is good, if your going to use a breaker bar and leverage.
a impact gun will come in handy sometimes as well.
the tight bolt is the crank pully bolt.
lol.
your gonna have fun if this is your first time doing it, same as roy.
lol.
and yes, roy does work with me now.

[dsp26]

nah, the crank seal sits behind the crank gear.
the crank pully tool is good, if your going to use a breaker bar and leverage.
a impact gun will come in handy sometimes as well.
the tight bolt is the crank pully bolt.
lol.
your gonna have fun if this is your first time doing it, same as roy.
lol.
and yes, roy does work with me now.

damn i knew it... i asked his sister on my behalf duno if hes keen.. shes hot btw n she knows it haha.. half chinese/danish.

should i just bring it in to you guys to service? not comfortable with the crank seal part... honda's are tad bit of a bitch for me to work on in terms of tight bolts or hard to reach areas

[beeza]

So what does a cold air loop mean :) uses more fuel?

[dsp26]

So what does a cold air loop mean :) uses more fuel?

closed loop uses the ECU tune for WOT. open loop is generally when the engine is cruising and a/f is adjusted via O2 sensor input.

[destrukshn]

add me to msn man, we'll talk.
lol

[beeza]

Ah,cheers.

[nd55]

> Thanks all. any civic manual w/ B16a engine will do yeah?

Helm's by a long way.
Used OEM might be a good choice.

Haynes is more for casual weekend stuff, spark plugs and wiper blades etc.

Nick.

[dsp26]

My advice to everyone with Water Pump Leak:
- If you have to top up everyday or two, REMOVE THE THERMOSTAT if your going to drive it for a while before getting it fixed
- DO NOT be tight-arse and keep filling with water if you can't afford to fix it ASAP

Because:
- The system can't maintain pressure because of waterpump leak, your engine will overheat and the high temp increase in water pressure will escape through the leak instead of opening the thermostat... even if you have a low temp thermo. It's better to run the engine a bit cooler than let it overheat, i now have sudden cylinder 3 pressure drop.. hopefully it's just the head gasket instead of a warped head!!
- This icy morning today, my car overheated because the water in the radiator froze and couldn't circulate anyway.

[Benson]

that suxs. So are you going to fix it now?

[dsp26]

that suxs. So are you going to fix it now?

not yet, just not going to drive it until my build starts.. still calculating CR and how i'm going to get what value then pick the 'right cams' :)

[delsol9000rpms]

toda spec b's enough said....

[fatboyz39]

toda spec b's enough said....

LOL why's that cause your running them? better cams out besides toda B's plus cheaper.

[delsol9000rpms]

no actually im running spec c's...

he wants a midrange cam.... toda spec b is the best midrange cam i know... most other cams hav a stock primary and a big vtec cam...

theyre not THAT expensive... you pay for what you get at the end of the day... he has said that his build is awaiting his choice of cams.. so to me it doesnt sound like hes gonna cheap out on the most important decision...

my advice to dsp26 would be to go speak to Adrian from TODA himself about the cams etc..

[fatboyz39]

arnt you the guy running toda c's on a stock b16a? Your 1/4mile times arnt really showing the cams working greeat aye. Stock ITR cam b16a motor 13.9 down the 1/4mile.

Skunk2 pro 1's or copies of it will work good with the combo.

[fatboyz39]

theyre not THAT expensive... you pay for what you get at the end of the day... ...



So how much are they then? 1k ?

[dsp26]

arnt you the guy running toda c's on a stock b16a? Your 1/4mile times arnt really showing the cams working greeat aye. Stock ITR cam b16a motor 13.9 down the 1/4mile.

Skunk2 pro 1's or copies of it will work good with the combo.

really? thats overcamming hardcore.... i'd run those with at least 12:1CR too much loss of dynamic CR due to duration

[fatboyz39]

really? thats overcamming hardcore.... i'd run those with at least 12:1CR too much loss of dynamic CR due to duration

yeah its hetic. My mate installed toda c's in his stock ITR, went backwards.

[delsol9000rpms]

arnt you the guy running toda c's on a stock b16a? Your 1/4mile times arnt really showing the cams working greeat aye. Stock ITR cam b16a motor 13.9 down the 1/4mile.

Skunk2 pro 1's or copies of it will work good with the combo.


yee pffttt mate belive what you want... i wudnt call a 15 flat with a 2.8 60" a fair run you cant exactly launch it without spinning to the limiter... if youd like i can show you time slips...?

so who are you thenn? how is it overcamming its a stock bottome end but thats about it... shaved head for higher compression... fuk dynos and all that shit my car isnt a dyno queen but in a roll start race its a diffrent story... ill be back out soon anyways

[delsol9000rpms]

So how much are they then? 1k ?

y dont you go speak to adrian about it?? diffrent person = diffrent price...

[fatboyz39]

so your saying you'll run into the 13's? if so keep dreaming cause it won't happen.

Yes fuk dyno, we know its a tuning tool. Whoever said you was a dyno queen?

[delsol9000rpms]

so your saying you'll run into the 13's? if so keep dreaming cause it won't happen.

Yes fuk dyno, we know its a tuning tool. Whoever said you was a dyno queen?

lol... ok mate .. who are you? i never said ill run into the 13's..? where did you get that from... well see wat times i run anyways so easy to talk when you dnt know anything about my car or me... keep talkin mate its all good i dnt mind..

[fatboyz39]

lol... ok mate .. who are you? i never said ill run into the 13's..? where did you get that from... well see wat times i run anyways so easy to talk when you dnt know anything about my car or me... keep talkin mate its all good i dnt mind..

report back when you run half decent time.

[delsol9000rpms]

ye and your rite about that....

who are you you seem to talk like you know me or know my car... you were out on wsid the night i ran.?? you were with hassan and friends?

[dsp26]

how is it overcamming its a stock bottome end but thats about it... shaved head for higher compression...

term "overcamming" depicts a scenario where the combination of cam duration and overlap is too big for an engine and WILL lose power over a significant range versus a marginal gain maybe up top, in the case of Toda Cs having power up high and on a 10:4:1 static CR motor, for all you know the dynamic CR is probably 7 or 8:1.

its because when the duration is too big, the inlet valves are open at the same time as the exhaust (overlap) on the intake and combustion stroke, therefore instead of the combustion chamber being able to compress a sufficient amount of air/fuel mixture, it's actually already coming out your exhaust un-ignited (loss of cylinder pressure). thats why higher duration moves the power band to the top end its because everything is opening and closing faster.. but i bet your engine is idle-ing real rough right now too...

Theres a reason Toda Cs are marketed as a full build race cam only.. i have no idea who suggested for you to get them on a stock block/head as bigger is not better when it comes to NA modifications.


***EDIT***
have a look at this thread, Adrian actually posted the powerband of a customers car along with setup for Toda Cs in Post#16:thumbsup:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91415

personally if i had the money for a full build i'd probably do Toda Cs too and make the most of the top end.. kinda no point scavenging for bottom end on a motor with a bore vs stroke ratio not designed for it. but because i'm on a budget and i am opening the engine up anyway, the performance cams of choice are a 'may as well' thing :)

[delsol9000rpms]

i no how compression ratios work...

heres where your wrong.... toda spec c's versus stock cams on my motor... the toda spec c's gained power everywhere.... wasnt worse at any bit of the rpm range.... 25kw peak power gain might i add
my engine idle? idles perfect mate very steady nicely tuned idles at 900rpms smoothly

toda spec c's arent a race only cam... the toda spec d's are... toda spec c's are unbelieveably streetable... if you drive my car you will know it has more torque then a b18c. i chose not to port my head so the car is still very streetable and it didnt loose any low down power... so in this case i think it was the right thing to do

[delsol9000rpms]

i think adrian from toda is more educated on this stuff then you are youve never had spec c's in your car so you dnt know how they behave so what makes you think it was a stupid decision?

[Benson]

You owned that Black Delsol ey?

Yeh me and my mate was watching that night when you ran 15's all day long... Your burn-outs on the rev limiter was good.. dont see how you were gettin 2.8 60fters

I also heard that the car was cammed up with some headwork... my first impression was its a poor effort with that much work done to it.. stock EK4's are doing flat 15's

[jdmTYPE R]

i ran toda c2 on my stock itr bottomend and tuned all i can say it, that it ran worse and less power then a stock itr cam...dont know how u made the power with the 10 cr....the response was shit

[dsp26]

i agree with the above 2. i do have experience with big duration cams on toyotas and nissans and know the effects, however thats irrelevant as simple physics contradict what you say and we all already know what effects big duration has on an engine despite the advantage of vtec.

sooo... my question is since this is already off topic... despite your many mentions of Adrian/Toda.. he had nothing to do with your car did he? coz i do agree that mr Toda would know about these a lot more than us therefore i'd actually like full details of your car from him if he did...

oh.. and who was your tuner?

[delsol9000rpms]

You owned that Black Delsol ey?

Yeh me and my mate was watching that night when you ran 15's all day long... Your burn-outs on the rev limiter was good.. dont see how you were gettin 2.8 60fters

I also heard that the car was cammed up with some headwork... my first impression was its a poor effort with that much work done to it.. stock EK4's are doing flat 15's


yep 15.0 , 15.1 and 15.2 all with 2.7 and 2.8 sixxty feet

[delsol9000rpms]

i agree with the above 2. i do have experience with big duration cams on toyotas and nissans and know the effects, however thats irrelevant as simple physics contradict what you say and we all already know what effects big duration has on an engine despite the advantage of vtec.

sooo... my question is since this is already off topic... despite your many mentions of Adrian/Toda.. he had nothing to do with your car did he? coz i do agree that mr Toda would know about these a lot more than us therefore i'd actually like full details of your car from him if he did...

oh.. and who was your tuner?

built and tuned by adrian from toda....

ive already said this car did not run worse... gains all round with a 25kw peak power gain... i dnt know what else i have to say... you can put what ever cams you want in your car... end of the day its your choice....

[delsol9000rpms]

some of you still insist that my car ran worse and does not run how it should... please swing by my house so i can take you for a drive n well see what you think...

[dsp26]

some of you still insist that my car ran worse and does not run how it should... please swing by my house so i can take you for a drive n well see what you think...

can i seriously volunteer?

[fatboyz39]

built and tuned by adrian from toda....

ive already said this car did not run worse... gains all round with a 25kw peak power gain... i dnt know what else i have to say... you can put what ever cams you want in your car... end of the day its your choice....

So your saying your making around 115kw? that taking into consideration a b16a will make 90kw atw + 25kw as you said.

WOW big gain from JUST cams. Back it up with dyno graph. If shown ill buy myself a set of toda c's and place it in a stock b16a motor.

$1000 for 25kw is a absolute bargain. who needs turbo

[delsol9000rpms]

87.5kws standard stock as a rock.... 112kws with the mods... its not only cams mate...

[delsol9000rpms]

can i seriously volunteer?

mate anytime.

[dsp26]

87.5kws standard stock as a rock.... 112kws with the mods... its not only cams mate...

thats fair enough then, you initially gave the impression that it was only cams and milled head.. of course supporting valvetrain i/h/e is assumed.

more detail on your setup and a post of dyno sheet in the cam thread would be appreciated by all to understand your setup better.

if you don't mind i will take you up on the joyride offer sometime soon.. whereabouts do you live?

[delsol9000rpms]

ye im not stupid i did all the research you have been doing i know what works etc... would be very dumb to throw in spec c's without headers and an exhaust and intake... theres other stuff but im not gonna post it up on this forum too many haters.... i dnt have the final dyno sheet its still at toda racing next time i go ill get it...
next time i race we will see if i overcammed my motor or not.....i hate when people try and teach me about my own car... pretty dumb if you think about it... if i lost power i wouldnt have kept them in my car...
i live in the parramatta area.

[beeza]

miss communication.It's all good!

[delsol9000rpms]

miss communication.It's all good!


ye i know ayyy lol... i never do anything wrong or diss anyone but when someone like fatboyz39 who knows nothing about my car or me comes along and tries to diss mee then thats a shit go...

btw to show you the midrange of spec c's.... my car makes 98kw atw at 7000rpm before vtec kicks in

[dsp26]

ye i know ayyy lol... i never do anything wrong or diss anyone but when someone like fatboyz39 who knows nothing about my car or me comes along and tries to diss mee then thats a shit go...

btw to show you the midrange of spec c's.... my car makes 98kw atw at 7000rpm before vtec kicks in

thats fair enough though and it makes sense now you've let on a bit more about your car. no-ones hating...

admittedly at first i too was seriously questioning your setup because you clearly only stated that you have Spec Cs and a milled head... that can't possibly work on its own optimally but naturally thats why we're very inquisitive.

it would be appreciated by everyone else if you actually posted details of your setup here:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73945&page=6

no point not spilling the beans on your setup unless its a prototype in testing or coz of 'haters'.. i can guarantee you a n00b will go on here thinking wow.. 25wkw for only $1k on cams.. clearly you've spent more on the supporting mods to make that work like in jdmtype-r's scenario with the b18c7

i guess thats what fatboyz/benson/jdmtype-r was getting at...:thumbsup:

personally from me though, reason i need more detail is because if your setup does work and you have the performance to prove, people in the same boat as me may actually considering going 1 stage up to something like TodaBs,S2P1, S2S2,BC4, etc...

[delsol9000rpms]

dsp26 if ya wanna see my mods look on crxaustralia. your logged on there...worklogz section

all im saying is that toda spec c's is not over camming with a good tune you will see great gains... i still rekon you should use toda spec b's mate but each to their own its your car.. whos gonna tune your car?

[delsol9000rpms]

*#****

[barefootbonzai]

7000rpm and you're still not in vtec yeah. That was the same as a motor that i was involved with.

Maybe you should try to wack some stock cams, or ITR cams in just for shit's and giggles and see how your current setup reacts to it. Who knows, you might pickup more power.

[Benson]

What MPH did you pull?

[fatboyz39]

ye i know ayyy lol... i never do anything wrong or diss anyone but when someone like fatboyz39 who knows nothing about my car or me comes along and tries to diss mee then thats a shit go...

btw to show you the midrange of spec c's.... my car makes 98kw atw at 7000rpm before vtec kicks in

whoever said i was hating? Just stated the facts why you would recommend toda c's on a stock motor and will gain power?

You'll need to have decent headers, intake system, and a tunable ECU. Don't think those cams will work with stock ECU.

[fatboyz39]

7000rpm and you're still not in vtec yeah. That was the same as a motor that i was involved with.

Maybe you should try to wack some stock cams, or ITR cams in just for shit's and giggles and see how your current setup reacts to it. Who knows, you might pickup more power.

The truth might hurt. :p

[delsol9000rpms]

What MPH did you pull?

95mph mate.

[delsol9000rpms]

whoever said i was hating? Just stated the facts why you would recommend toda c's on a stock motor and will gain power?

You'll need to have decent headers, intake system, and a tunable ECU. Don't think those cams will work with stock ECU.

ye i no they wnt work on a stock ecu and i dnt hav a stock ecu mate...

[delsol9000rpms]

The truth might hurt. :p


ayy matee give me ITR cams and i will be more then happy to throw them in my car..

[CRXer]

dont u chance a bit of float on the high rocker if VTECing above 6500rpm?

or does the TODA C's remedy this?

[delsol9000rpms]

im sure toda is on top of that since my motor is still perfectly fine..

[fatboyz39]

Go and ask toda, im sure he has some lying around.

[CRXer]

Yeah,in sure he is too,was just interested in what parameter on the C's overcomes this condition over stock cams

[fatboyz39]

95mph mate.

Wait until your 60fter drops, your MPH will also. ;)

[delsol9000rpms]

ye and so will my ET you silly man.

[barefootbonzai]

ye and so will my ET you silly man.

dude you need to start thinking before you just write random shit.

No one is looking at your ET, it's the MPH that we are interested in cause it's a good indication of power/weight on your setup.

[fatboyz39]

As what barefootbonzai said, don't care about ET's.

[bennjamin]

Hi All,

Had a look around the car and did a bit of research... just wondering if anyone could confirm the below for me.. Thanks.

- Water Leak: Passenger side around belts = Water Pump?
- Use B16 water pump only for my B16a, B18c7 has too many teeth and spins less...

If changing water pump also change:
- Timing belt
- Tensioner + bolt (Honda Only)

Access to change belt (assuming this isn't engine out job):
- Remove Passenger wheel
- Undo all engine mounts except Driver side
- remove extractors and lower engine
- open timing cover



Search keywords: Timing Belt, Tensioner, Water Pump, Water Leak

So , does anyone have any more info on this ?

[dsp26]

^^^yup...

i'm now leaking the entire radiator in a space of 4hrs (or at least half of it) since after that time the heater wont function and the water boils and engine overheats.. and i still have the thermostat on despite my advice as i couldn't be stuffed removing it, sick of getting cuts allover my hands working in tight spaces :p

need to carry around 5l container of feo with water.

[Benson]

why not do a pressure test?