Maximworks or Lovefab Headers?

[SXC-84K]

hey all what do u guys rkn will be a better header for headwork + bolt ons and a hondata tune?

[JSpec3]

I'd say Lovefab only because I haven't heard of maximworks or seen there quality or a dyno graph on a prelude.

[grumpy rooster]

What are the pipe diameters of each?

[kNetz]

ive never heard of lovefab

[BADHBT]

i would go lovefab as they are made to order, i use to rock it in my H22 days

[SXC-84K]

What are the pipe diameters of each?

im not sure bout the lovefabs since their custom but i do know theyve got a 2.5" collector not much help there... also not sure bout the maximworks either

[SXC-84K]

ok just got this from my source the diametres of the pipes for the maximworks headers are the following:

"The diameters of the pipes are 45mm-->50.8mm-->60.5mm 4-->2-->1 system.."

[grumpy rooster]

They are big. That works out to be 1.75" > 2" > 2.5". What bolt ons do you have? If you have the standard manifold you won't see much more gain over a smaller set of headers.

As a refernce on the Hi-Comp drag car the car made no more power with the custom headers of 1.75" > 1.875" > 3" over the standard headers with 2.5" exhaust with stock inlet manifold and ported head. But when we fitted the quads the difference was 13kw to the bigger custom headers and it made more power everywhere and made more for longer.

It sounds like you have a similar setup apart from the quads so that should give you some idea. :)

[SXC-84K]

They are big. That works out to be 1.75" > 2" > 2.5". What bolt ons do you have? If you have the standard manifold you won't see much more gain over a smaller set of headers.

As a refernce on the Hi-Comp drag car the car made no more power with the custom headers of 1.75" > 1.875" > 3" over the standard headers with 2.5" exhaust with stock inlet manifold and ported head. But when we fitted the quads the difference was 13kw to the bigger custom headers and it made more power everywhere and made more for longer.

It sounds like you have a similar setup apart from the quads so that should give you some idea. :)

aem v2 intake, hi flow cat, 2.5" catback, headers next obviously then stage 2 bc headwork and hondata tune, thinkin bout a euro r or skunk2 IM but was told stock 1s would be good enough for my setup

[JSpec3]

If you end up wanting to put a skunk2 IM on, I have one I'm gonna sell. I was gonna use it but decided not to.

[grumpy rooster]

Further to what I posted above Joe's car made 145kwatw at 8,300rpm. And over 3,200Nm of tractive effort. Thats with a 4.7FD.

Send me a PM and I'll discuss it further with you if you like. :)

[SXC-84K]

If you end up wanting to put a skunk2 IM on, I have one I'm gonna sell. I was gonna use it but decided not to.

yeh i saw on ur sig on PA :P getting some opinions of it atm, mitch's got em and said their crap compared to the stock 1s but we'll see once he goes for his 2nd tune

[grumpy rooster]

From our experience the standard manifold will flow up to 130kwatw. Over that it can't flow enough air over 7,000rpm.

[SXC-84K]

From our experience the standard manifold will flow up to 130kwatw. Over that it can't flow enough air over 7,000rpm.

ahh ok, rooster have u experienced the euro r vs skunk2 IM? if so what r ur thoughts

[grumpy rooster]

Short answer, no I haven't.

[JSpec3]

yeh i saw on ur sig on PA :P getting some opinions of it atm, mitch's got em and said their crap compared to the stock 1s but we'll see once he goes for his 2nd tune

yeah righto. he's the only one to say that, that I've read anyway. If you want it, just let me know. .

[SXC-84K]

yeah righto. he's the only one to say that, that I've read anyway. If you want it, just let me know. .

dw mate once i get my sussy and coilovers IM is next so if u still got it then ill get it off u if i dont get the euro r

[JSpec3]

yup cool.

[Mitchman]

STD manifold can flow way past that much power dude. euro R manifolds arent that much larger nor have runners that are much shorter and larger ID and Jun pulled 240whp from that. Im taking my Skunk2 IM off (runner lengths are just wrong for NA to keep any perfeormance below 5k rpm) for my standard manifold port matched to my new 65mm (was a skunk2 68mm) TB until I finish my ITBS. I also am Running lovefab headers www.lovefab.com they make chunky headers and turbo systems for all hondas inc NSX's
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l250/mitchimal/header2-1.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l250/mitchimal/100520081491.jpg
Maximworks headers are the exact same as mugen.. as they make the mugen header lol for the price its a no way from me. as SMSP destroy these performance wise with a complete build.
Buddy club stage 2 cams.... well as it is right now Buddyclub australia dont even know the specs for this cam but I dont think youl be running even stage 1 cams lol as stage 1 cam is equivelant to a crower stage 3 Zu tells me lol they are a race only type cam from 2 up. we're talking over 13mm lift haha

[Mitchman]

Further to what I posted above Joe's car made 145kwatw at 8,300rpm. And over 3,200Nm of tractive effort. Thats with a 4.7FD.

Send me a PM and I'll discuss it further with you if you like. :)

dam I want a mfactory gear! lol

[grumpy rooster]

No need for mfactory, OBX dude. That's what Joe runs. And they are cheap. ;)

As for the power, well the stock manifold on his engine with only head porting and a head shave made no more power with big headers or small. When we changed to the throttle bodies the difference was 13kwatw as I mentioned. It might make power past there but its not really doing you any favours. A ported stock manifold, ie runners and throttle body area, and 72-80mm throttle body may be the answer but why waste the money. I'd just go to something bigger that will leave more headroom for further mods.

[Mitchman]

didnt know OBX made FD's!!! set!. My skunk2 is a big let down as they did jack all research on it and the runner diameter and lengths are great up high but leave the lower range so laggy and slow down airspeed Std manifold has ram effect in around 5-6k the skunk 2 is just about at redline which is great for a turbo or drag car. 68mm is huge and we've found it to just add to the laggy effect. 72-80mm TBs???????? for a drag car Id say ok haha but anything else that would just be silly! standard manifolds can do 150kw so my builder/ tuner says but mine will go once I can afford to finish my quads. what throttle was your friend running before he went with quads?

[grumpy rooster]

He had standard manifold, standard throttle body with standard headers and 2.5" exhaust or open headers. That combo with ported and shaved head made 129-132kwatw depending on the day. Didn't matter what headers it made the same power. Was tuned with an EMS ecu.

It now runs 50mm TWM quad throttle bodies.

[Mitchman]

lol nice and im sure u sold him them yeah ;-) haha yeah the standard throttle body though is a tiny 60mm at the butterfly!! the quads have 50mm each! lol nice. Yeah no matter what header or cam u run if u cant get the air volume in there fast enough u aint going to make anything and the engine will ping like a bitch

[grumpy rooster]

No need for mfactory, OBX dude. That's what Joe runs. And they are cheap. ;)

Oops, my bad here. I was thinking LSD when typing that but you were talking about FD. OBX only make FD's for DC2 Integras.

[Mitchman]

haha nah man H22s as well!! 4.64 FD Just found that on there website, $425 US aposed to Mfactories $750AUD 4.7 FD waiting on OBX to get me shipping costs.

[SXC-84K]

whats the site to get obx products?

[grumpy rooster]

I'll have to speak to my supplier about the H22 FD. If you guys want OBX products send me a PM. ;)

[fatboyz39]

vote for love fab headers.

As for Intake manifold, go for the EURO R. Search on hondatech as there is a big thread comparing intake manifold on H22a.

[94vtirozguy]

it all depends on what parts you run together to see the gains you will enjoy.

Also a large part is the tuning, if you have a crap tuner, you are not going to see any gains.

skunk2 IM does make power on stock internals on the h22, there is a big thread on honda-tech
about it (mainly people regurgitating incorrect information they heard), and it also shows it
out performs the EURO, with a lot less stuffing about to make it fit.

[Mitchman]

For air speed and mid range torque the stock IM is king hands down. Fatboyz and I have a tuner that kinda knows his sh!t. Euro R imo would be the best upgrade ONCE the std intake becomes restrictive but for low-midrange power i.e Streetable torque std wins. But anyhow lets not hijack this HEADER thread anymore lol
He knows what headers I think he should be looking at.

[SXC-84K]

For air speed and mid range torque the stock IM is king hands down. Fatboyz and I have a tuner that kinda knows his sh!t. Euro R imo would be the best upgrade ONCE the std intake becomes restrictive but for low-midrange power i.e Streetable torque std wins. But anyhow lets not hijack this HEADER thread anymore lol
He knows what headers I think he should be looking at.

damn straight! LOL i spend late nights talking to this mofo, its almost like his my biatch hahaha kidding :P we'll talk soon ;)

[fatboyz39]

x-force headers can be another option, heard its bang for buck for H motors.

[SXC-84K]

x-force headers can be another option, heard its bang for buck for H motors.

nah their prone to crack and their diametres r 2 small and they dont flow enough gas for the setup im after (headwork). however their pretty good for a bolt ons setup eg i/h/e and a piggyback tune with vafcII

[grumpy rooster]

If your going for an aftermarket intake manifold, which you are, yes I would agree with you. If you were just using the standard intake manifold then no I don't agree. Even with headwork a smaller pipe is ok with the standard intake manifold, throttle body etc. That's what I have seen.

[SXC-84K]

If your going for an aftermarket intake manifold, which you are, yes I would agree with you. If you were just using the standard intake manifold then no I don't agree. Even with headwork a smaller pipe is ok with the standard intake manifold, throttle body etc. That's what I have seen.

im still not sure what IM to get :S

[Mitchman]

Stil dont agree that the stock intake is as restrictive as you say. Mr Dave knows his hondas and I know how annoying the skunk is.. put them side by side and youl notice its just runner length that varies mainly and only to push the RAM effect up to a higher RPM. port and polish a std manifold and you will get it flowing high in to the red. Have a look on any plot even skunk2s plot!! and you will see from 2-4.5k or there abouts a silly drop in torque and power in the skunk item.

[SXC-84K]

Stil dont agree that the stock intake is as restrictive as you say. Mr Dave knows his hondas and I know how annoying the skunk is.. put them side by side and youl notice its just runner length that varies mainly and only to push the RAM effect up to a higher RPM. port and polish a std manifold and you will get it flowing high in to the red. Have a look on any plot even skunk2s plot!! and you will see from 2-4.5k or there abouts a silly drop in torque and power in the skunk item.

i agree! but if u decide to get a better IM let me know how it goes :P

[grumpy rooster]

All along I have been talking about a stock manifold, not a ported one with bigger throttle body etc. Thats an OEM manifold but its no longer stock. ;)

What power level are you saying the "stock" manifold is good to? I'm saying a "stock" manifold is good to around 130-135kwatw. Ported etc and bigger throttle body it may well go further. Lets say a "stock" manifold is good to 135kw. Stock H22As on the same dyno make 106kw. So that's an increase of 29kw, or 27%. Thats a big increase on any NA vehicle with a stock manifold.

All I have been trying to say is that how much more headroom does it have? Yes, you could modify it to make more, but how much more, and for what? In mY mind if you are wanting more power you are better off to go to something that offers more hp potential in the future. And if you are doing that (getting back on topic) you will need much larger pipe sizes for the headers. Smaller pipe sizes aren't that restrictive up to that point. But, if you start modifying the OEM manifold, its no longer stock, and yes, you would want bigger pipe sizes because, I am assuming here, you would be making atleast 130kwatw to warrant these mods.

Thats from my experience. So I'm not saying your wrong, we are just talking about 2 slightly different scenarios. :)

[Mitchman]

Ill be looking at 140-150kw. but I wont know when my oem manifold will give out as the ITBs will be going on same time as stage 3 cams and being ported. I have type S cams atm and 12.3:1 comp. call it personal preferance but I like a torque revver and drivable with some movement available low to mid range :-s
Agreed. bit different scenario!

[94vtirozguy]

so i cant see any loss on this graph

http://www.preludeaustralia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=835&d=1163144153

Also notice the torque figure in the corner....

with the skunk IM MORE torque and sooner (skunk IM in red, stock in blue)... this is on a stock engine.

as i stated earlier on depends on your tuner, and how things flow together.

[fatboyz39]

im still not sure what IM to get :S


We were in the same boat with choosing a manifold for our H22a Type S. Have read thru comparisons with skunk2, stock and Euro R manifolds. We choose EURO R manifold as it performed best.

[SXC-84K]

We were in the same boat with choosing a manifold for our H22a Type S. Have read thru comparisons with skunk2, stock and Euro R manifolds. We choose EURO R manifold as it performed best.

hey mate, did u have any problems or did it take long/cost alot to get the euro r IM to fit the H22?

[fatboyz39]

hey mate, did u have any problems or did it take long/cost alot to get the euro r IM to fit the H22?

nope no problems. Took under an hr to fit the new manifold.

[SXC-84K]

nope no problems. Took under an hr to fit the new manifold.

farken sweett!

[Mitchman]

so i cant see any loss on this graph

http://www.preludeaustralia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=835&d=1163144153

Also notice the torque figure in the corner....

with the skunk IM MORE torque and sooner (skunk IM in red, stock in blue)... this is on a stock engine.

as i stated earlier on depends on your tuner, and how things flow together.
Something tells me my tuner- Dyno Dave isnt stupid when it comes to building hondas mate. the graph that came with my manifold showed a loss untill about 4.5k and to be honest dude I have a fair few mods and I definantly feel a loss until till like 4k i.e the useable cruising rpm range cruising on the street compared to my stock IM. Its laggy as crap and runners are designed for uptop rpm only. learn what Ram effect and runner length in relation to torque develpoment and you may understand that an intake system can be tuned to either low/ midrange OR high end. the std intake tries its best to do low/ mid range with its variable runner lengths/ butterfly valves but can suffer in the higher rpm but a good port n polish will let you run upto 150kw through it-proven. Im sorry but did u say the 228ft lbs?? i.e 308nm at the wheels hahaha dude stock h22- 212nm at the fly.. doubtfuly u make just under 100nm from an IM lol I dont care about dyno numbers its how the car feels and I just cant justify people saying its a great mod as after my whole build its something im removing as its draw backs overdo its benefits for NA applications..
my 22 cents....


sorry had a shit night last night.

[94vtirozguy]

^^^^
seriously the numbers do not matter, the comparison shows same car one with stock the other with skunk and the gains associated directly with a specific mod, its the gains that matter.

i don't care how many mods you have, if your parts are not designed properly to work with each other, then you are going to get bad results. Then on top of that , you need a good tuner.

If you haven't done either of the above, then you are not going to get the best results.

I think if you look in the honda-tech thread ( the one without all the keyboard mechanics, the one that shows the skunk has more torque and hp then the euro). Anyway it's up to you in the end.

where are YOUR dyno sheets proving otherwise ? ie same car, same mods.

Thats my last on the topic

[Mitchman]

dyno sheets.. numbers... same shit different way to put it realy! most dynos vary a little bit some alot!.. and by the sounds of Dr drifts dyno its a very generous dyno. And with torque readings like that I cant put any faith in the plots. Dyno dave knows how to build engines and something tells me he knows a little more about tuning and from start to present its only been built by him. If you can actualy tell me how the skunk2 IM makes more torque all the way across the band then ill hush hey! cause if you did actualy know something about how IM are designed you would understand why each performs the way they do. I dont need to plot up dynos to know if my car is laggy I turn the key and actualy drive mine.

[grumpy rooster]

i don't care how many mods you have, if your parts are not designed properly to work with each other, then you are going to get bad results. Then on top of that , you need a good tuner.


That is so true. As I mentioned previously in this thread the Hi-Comp Civic now makes 145kwatw. With the open exhaust yesterday at Compak Attak it smashed its PB by 2/10ths and ran 3mph quicker ONLY changing the standard manifold for the quads. Of course it had to be retuned due to the massive flow difference between the standard manifold and the quads.

13kwatw, 2/10ths, 3mph difference on an 11sec car, thats a big gain. Big intake (the quads) and good flowing head requires big pipes. In this case everything is now matched bigger than OEM. I still say the OEM manifold is a problem if you're chasing power. Power figures and on track performances don't lie. :)

[Mitchman]

umm.. yeah.. its a track car. Lol ITBS will beat any manifold setup hands down but to realy clear up what im trying to say the Skunk2 IM WILL make more top end power as thats what its designed to do if you noticed in my posts Im talking about street usable torque and response if I ran a feather weight civic i wouldnt care about torque! Argh lets just stop this discussion lol i keep getting confused looking at the thread title as were going on about intakes! p.s I started my quads over the weekend! after I get back from europe ill get them finished n post em up... trying a few things different that you havnt seen b4 :-)

[grumpy rooster]

I will almost guarantee you that our car makes more torque than yours across a wider rev range. ;)

The point of what I was saying is that big headers are not necessary unless you have mods that require them. Again, matching components is the key.

[Mitchman]

I will almost guarantee you that our car makes more torque than yours across a wider rev range. ;)

The point of what I was saying is that big headers are not necessary unless you have mods that require them. Again, matching components is the key.

Like Iv said if the theory that shorter fatter runners make MORE torque in the low to midrange ill give you my car... If you knew how IMs are designed you would understand... My car has MATCHING COMPONENTS omg... I have high comp I have cams I have headers I have a CAI I have a valve jobed head I have a completely free flowing exhaust and a Hondata s200 I know what im friken talking about and Iv driven my car from stock till know and I know how they design intake manifolds and how they are tuned DO SOME RESEARCH about why Runners in a skunk2 manifold are 234mm long and why OEM are 275/310mm long depending on butterfly open/shut... learn why turbo cars/TOP END NA cars use short n fat runners on there manifolds and I CAN GUARENTEE you skunk2s make less torque in the lower half of the rev range for the purpose that they were designed for higher horse power above 4grand. Skunk2s dynos obviously will read that they are gods gift and with all due respect the numbers from Dr Drifts dyno are all over the shop and not in just the case of 94vtir's plots.
If you can get a dyno done at Bel garage I can compare to that as Dave tunes there race cars.
read all these and you might come around. All it is is Physics.
http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/allaboutrams/ramtheory.htm
http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=466
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3107/intake_manifolds_from_mild_to_wild.aspx

[fatboyz39]

I will almost guarantee you that our car makes more torque than yours across a wider rev range. ;)

The point of what I was saying is that big headers are not necessary unless you have mods that require them. Again, matching components is the key.

BIG TUBE headers work on stock motors. We have done some testing with some small and big tube tri-y designs and we got some really interesting numbers.