Vtec or turbo?

[According2]

Not sure if this has been debated before or not but a quick search didn't show anything.
Given a choice of a factory fitted turbo or vtec to your Euro what would you prefer?

[xntrik]

wtf.
turbo.

[Suntzu]

wtf v2

i already got vtec, i aint gunna pull it orf!

[tony1234]

Factory fitted turbo????

[OMG.JAI xD]

all euros already have vtec :/

only honda that came with turbo is the us spec mdx.
and the s2000 that came with an aftermarket supercharger only for the US. but that wasnt really "factory".

just an aftermarket accesory :/

dont think hondas gonna lean to factory fitted turbos. unless they put it in theyre up coming diesel range.
vtecs enough.
=]

[xntrik]

Hondas only dont build turbo cars cause theyre well known for VTEC.

You dont get Vtec in a Nissan.

[Crapdaz]

Not sure if this has been debated before or not but a quick search didn't show anything.
Given a choice of a factory fitted turbo or vtec to your Euro what would you prefer?

rofl how funny vtec or turbo euro rofl.....
1. Euro is already vtec when stock.
2.There is a factory turbo for euro? if they do i havent heard about it nor has anyone else in AUS.

Well i was hoping to turbo my euro but then so much money and time is required.

[JunYu]

all euros already have vtec :/

only honda that came with turbo is the us spec mdx.
and the s2000 that came with an aftermarket supercharger only for the US. but that wasnt really "factory".

just an aftermarket accesory :/

dont think hondas gonna lean to factory fitted turbos. unless they put it in theyre up coming diesel range.
vtecs enough.
=]


dont forget the city turbo's. I've owned one and they're a fun to drive :D

[EUR003act]

Not sure if this has been debated before or not but a quick search didn't show anything.
Given a choice of a factory fitted turbo or vtec to your Euro what would you prefer?

vtec and turbo is two completely different functions in a car... turbo's force more air into an engine creating more power (and can be set up for performance increase accross nearly the entire rev range).. vtec on the other hand is for fuel effeciency... if honda didnt have vtec (ie: high cam setting all the time...) then fuel consumption would go thru the roof at lower revs, not to mention how rough the car would idle...

[Lukey13]

How about supercharging?







Although today's modern turbos are sometimes capable of producing nice linear power curves as well as fat and flat torque curves.

[EUR003act]

How about supercharging?







Although today's modern turbos are sometimes capable of producing nice linear power curves as well as fat and flat torque curves.

supercharging does produce a much more linear power curve... very good for low down power compared to turbo...

[Crapdaz]

isnt supercharger better throughout the rev range? thats what i've heard, but supercharger cause more wear/stress on engine components compared to turbo.

downfall turbo you need to spool, cooling down, turbo lag but both have there benefits.

Anyone know if turboing our euro with Vtec would have any problems? or anything we need to consider in conjunction with the vtec?

[T-onedc2]

Turbo has a negative effect on driveability, VTEC wins hands down there, for performance I'd supercharge it. Search youtube for supercharged TSX etc, they sound sweet.

[EUR003act]

isnt supercharger better throughout the rev range? thats what i've heard, but supercharger cause more wear/stress on engine components compared to turbo.

downfall turbo you need to spool, cooling down, turbo lag but both have there benefits.

Anyone know if turboing our euro with Vtec would have any problems? or anything we need to consider in conjunction with the vtec?

Supercharger:
Pros:
linear power band (more power accross entire rev range)
no lag, therefore good for low end power
does not require new exhaust manifold (cheaper to add on to car)
Cons:
uses the engines power to spin the turbine, just like air con compressor
expensive turbines if you wanna go biiiiiiig boost!

Turbocharger:
Pros:
higher power gains due to easier to run higher boost
runs "for free", does not draw power off the engine to run
fairly cheap these days to upgrade to bigger turbo
Cons:
not good for power accross entire rev range
needs to spool before creating power, turbo lag
creates backpressure on the exhaust
needs to cool down after running

both put equal extra stress on the engine, hence why charged engines never last as long as n/a engines (generally speaking)

no there is no problems turboing a vtec engine... if youre running high boost tho, u would want to lower the engines compression... 10.5:1 is very high for aftermarket turbo running high boost!

[Crapdaz]

Supercharger:
Pros:
linear power band (more power accross entire rev range)
no lag, therefore good for low end power
does not require new exhaust manifold (cheaper to add on to car)
Cons:
uses the engines power to spin the turbine, just like air con compressor
expensive turbines if you wanna go biiiiiiig boost!

Turbocharger:
Pros:
higher power gains due to easier to run higher boost
runs "for free", does not draw power off the engine to run
fairly cheap these days to upgrade to bigger turbo
Cons:
not good for power accross entire rev range
needs to spool before creating power, turbo lag
creates backpressure on the exhaust
needs to cool down after running

both put equal extra stress on the engine, hence why charged engines never last as long as n/a engines (generally speaking)

no there is no problems turboing a vtec engine... if youre running high boost tho, u would want to lower the engines compression... 10.5:1 is very high for aftermarket turbo running high boost!

was hoping to run low boost 7psi, but then my mate goes i should just get the evo now rather than wasting money on the euro.

Thanks for your post.

[EUR003act]

was hoping to run low boost 7psi, but then my mate goes i should just get the evo now rather than wasting money on the euro.

Thanks for your post.

evo and euro once again cannot compare... euro is designed as luxury/family/sports car.. evo is designed as full on sports...

evo compares with wrx/sti/gtr/etc
euro compares with audii a4/mazda 6/liberty/bmw 3

if your after sports car, and u wanna go fast, get the evo now...

if your after something unique, get the comptech supercharger, ramp up the boost to 7psi, get a LSD and damn u got a quick euro!
:D

[CB7_OWNER]

I think what the OP means is like just a poll, he wants to know whether u'd prefer turbo or vtec...

[Crapdaz]

evo and euro once again cannot compare... euro is designed as luxury/family/sports car.. evo is designed as full on sports...

evo compares with wrx/sti/gtr/etc
euro compares with audii a4/mazda 6/liberty/bmw 3

if your after sports car, and u wanna go fast, get the evo now...

if your after something unique, get the comptech supercharger, ramp up the boost to 7psi, get a LSD and damn u got a quick euro!
:D


i like the euro alot, hence why i want to boost it up.
anyways evo is going to be my sports family car....

but yeh one day...

having vtec and turbo is a totally different experience. Depending on what sort of power you want...

[euro_tr4sh]

ummm... he was asking "IF" you hand the choice.... as in IF they came out with a N/A vtec motor or a turbo'd engine, which would you choose, jeez, talk about straight over your heads...

[DanVR4]

VTEC over Turbo. I've had a turbo car. With petrol at 1.62/L (this week) I now prefer fuel economy

[EUR003act]

ummm... he was asking "IF" you hand the choice.... as in IF they came out with a N/A vtec motor or a turbo'd engine, which would you choose, jeez, talk about straight over your heads...

the question he asked tho really didnt specify enough...
just because a car is turbo doesnt mean more power, nor does it mean better engine..

think of it this way:
DC5 integra vs. S15 Sylvia
K20 vs. SR20DET
2.0L N/A vs. 2.0L Turbo
VTEC vs. Turbo
147kw vs. 147kw

[T-onedc2]

the question he asked tho really didnt specify enough...
just because a car is turbo doesnt mean more power, nor does it mean better engine..

think of it this way:
DC5 integra vs. S15 Sylvia
K20 vs. SR20DET
2.0L N/A vs. 2.0L Turbo
VTEC vs. Turbo
147kw vs. 147kw
Finally a smart answer, every time I drive a turbo I get out frustrated and dislike them even more, and love my car more.

Euro is a great car but for me lacks power, I have long considered buying one but need to budget 10k for a Jackson Racing supercharger.

[Crapdaz]

Finally a smart answer, every time I drive a turbo I get out frustrated and dislike them even more, and love my car more.

Euro is a great car but for me lacks power, I have long considered buying one but need to budget 10k for a Jackson Racing supercharger.

What made you dislike turbo more?

[According2]

Thanks to CB7 Owner and euro tr4sh for reading and understanding my original post. I know all the differences between a turbo and how vtec works, I just wanted to know what other Euro owners would prefer Honda to have fitted, a turbo or vtec. Vtec to me seems like trying to do something the hard way with the results not as good as a good turbo setup. Vtec may be able to produce big power numbers but it will never produce the torque of a turbo.

[T-onedc2]

Vtec to me seems like trying to do something the hard way with the results not as good as a good turbo setup. Vtec may be able to produce big power numbers but it will never produce the torque of a turbo.
Vtec is not about trying to be like a turbo, it's about refinement & efficiency which can make good power with a flat torque curve. Turbo is a small capacity engine trying to behave like a larger capacity NA engine, yet is not nearly as driveable and is a bigger compromise.

[T-onedc2]

What made you dislike turbo more?
After being used to having useable torque from 1500rpm to pull out from streets in 2nd or 3rd gear, then driving a turbo (specifically 2.0L) around town and finding nothing worthwhile below 2800-3500rpm. Don't get me wrong, on boost is great but it starts late and ends early, for me it's a let down.

Sorry getting off topic. :)

[tron07]

2.4 vtec engine with a low preasure turbo would be nice.... boost comes early and good driverability

[T-onedc2]

2.4 vtec engine with a low preasure turbo would be nice.... boost comes early and good driverability
that's what I forgot to say lol
2.4 with turbo could be a good mix.

[According2]

I agree tron07, having experienced vtec and turbo combining a low boost turbo with vtec would make a great engine.

[tron07]

but when you have a low presure turbo, many would start to itch and mod it to a big turbo and make the car a beast to drive, turbo lag, torque steer and the car jumping all over the place... including engine blowing up

[mr747]

these days turbos are much better and getting a well suited turbo you can reduce all lag back 5 yrs ago turbo lag was everdent but these days turbo wins hands down over superchargers

turbo euro would be perfect nice big 4 cyc with a big displacement OH yeah big power

[aaronng]

Vtec to me seems like trying to do something the hard way with the results not as good as a good turbo setup. Vtec may be able to produce big power numbers but it will never produce the torque of a turbo.
That was not the intention of VTEC. VTEC is to allow you to use lumpy cams to make high RPM torque (and hence more power), while maintaining low RPM drivability and fuel economy. If you had the Euro making the same 140kW but without using VTEC, you'd probably get very little torque below 4000rpm and would need to idle the engine at about 1500rpm (guessing).

[According2]

That was not the intention of VTEC. VTEC is to allow you to use lumpy cams to make high RPM torque (and hence more power), while maintaining low RPM drivability and fuel economy. If you had the Euro making the same 140kW but without using VTEC, you'd probably get very little torque below 4000rpm and would need to idle the engine at about 1500rpm (guessing).

At the end of the day the goal is to produce an engine that is reliable, fuel efficient, refined while producing good power and torque. My view on best achieving this is with forced induction which with the improvements in turbo technology is something a lot of big manufacturers are now turning to ie BMW & Volkswagen. Is top end power that useful in every day driving, I much prefer the mid range torque that a turbo can provide. Vtec is a technical marvel but I think the goals mentioned earlier can be achieved with other technologies while producing better results. A Euro with say a Golf GTi engine would be something special, each to their own though.

[ShAwNeX]

Of course turbo. VTEC is getting old. Most companies have some form of VTEC anyways. But when advanced VTEC comes out then there should be some excitement.

[aaronng]

Of course turbo. VTEC is getting old. Most companies have some form of VTEC anyways. But when advanced VTEC comes out then there should be some excitement.

Yeah, but when Advanced VTEC comes out, all that does is give a smooth transition, not a step change. It won't make more power at the peak.

Also, Honda coming out with Advanced VTEC means catching up with Ferrari, which has had their sliding camshaft system for quite a while (although Honda's system should be more reliable for high mileage engine life).

[ShAwNeX]

Yeah, but when Advanced VTEC comes out, all that does is give a smooth transition, not a step change. It won't make more power at the peak.

Also, Honda coming out with Advanced VTEC means catching up with Ferrari, which has had their sliding camshaft system for quite a while (although Honda's system should be more reliable for high mileage engine life).

Yeah i read that too. advanced VTEC doesn't actually increase power but rather increase torque and better fuel consumption. In fact honda are actually gonna put the advanced vtec in a shopping trolley :p first because it provides better fuel economy but at the same time make the car torquier which gives the impression that the car is also more powerful.

What I meant when i said "wait until advanced vtec comes out" was that only (from memory) three companies actually have this technology. Being BMW and as you mentioned Ferrari. So its quite exciting that Honda can produce something like this and of that calibre. In addition its also more reliable and more efficient, as many have said that the ferrari version is very fragile.

[Pumped]

There is absolutely no ****ing question


Vtec everytime



NOT, WTF!

[EUR003act]

but when you have a low presure turbo, many would start to itch and mod it to a big turbo and make the car a beast to drive, turbo lag, torque steer and the car jumping all over the place... including engine blowing up

hehehe drive my car if you want torque steer, 1st gear tries to throw u into the gutter lol :p

[Shraka]

Hondas only dont build turbo cars cause theyre well known for VTEC.

You dont get Vtec in a Nissan.

Actually, they do. Nissan started with N-VCT (which is similar to Toyotas VVTi) and was included in their performance engines like the SR20DET and RB25DET. Later they upgraded to VVL (much like VTEC), and later switched to VVT with the Tiida and now use VVEL in the VQ37VHR engine.

About the mid 90s most car companies started including variable cam phasing (eg. Toyotas VVT and later VVTi) or variable cam profile (eg. VTEC).

Now days most quality cars have cam phasing and variable cam profile (Like iVTEC and VVTLi).

Variable cam profiling and phasing can work very well with a low boost turbocharger, but it's expensive and usually much easier just to add a few PSI of boost to gain torque and top end power. According to wiki the only variable lift engine Nissan produces with a turbocharger is the SR20VET from the Nissan X-Trail GT.

[EK Civic R]

It seems a lot of hardcore nissan owners are looking at the VET, in particular silvia owners. There's a blue S15 at proconcept that has done this conversion. Not sure how much power he gets, but a friend of mine is thinking about it as well..

Anyways, back to topic.. VTEC all the way~!!

[Shraka]

It seems a lot of hardcore nissan owners are looking at the VET, in particular silvia owners. There's a blue S15 at proconcept that has done this conversion. Not sure how much power he gets, but a friend of mine is thinking about it as well..

Anyways, back to topic.. VTEC all the way~!!

I would have thought it would be cheaper just to get more boost, and easier to grind your own cams and spend the money on something else. *shrug*

This is a stupid question anyway. A high revving engine, and thusly VTEC is awesome. Turbocharged engines are also good, especially for delivering lots of power and torque, usually easily outperforming atmo engines in that regard. Horses for courses.

The REAL question is, should Honda have made the Euro Accord Rear Wheel Drive? :) After all it's supposed to compete in the luxury Euro market, where BMW and Merc are mostly RWD, and Audi and many others are going AWD. I like that the BMW commercials are trying to convince people that RWD is safer than FWD. The main reason Toyota didn't make the last Celica RWD (they were thinking about it) was survey results showing people thought FWD was safer.

Obviously for me the answer is hell yes, the Euro Accord should certainly be RWD. I'd be cool if they had a V6 in them too for extra torque and power. :D

[tron07]

hehehe drive my car if you want torque steer, 1st gear tries to throw u into the gutter lol :p

Any ACT people want to cruise up to meet with us at Wollongong? Then you can show us your car :thumbsup:

[Sexc86]

i doubt honda will ever bring out factory turbo... even though toyota have turbo and "VVTLI" which is nearly the same shit

[aaronng]

i doubt honda will ever bring out factory turbo... even though toyota have turbo and "VVTLI" which is nearly the same shit

Huh? What does VVTL-i have to do with a turbo? Different shit, same skid mark. BTW, Toyota's VVTL-i engines are not produced anymore except for Lotus in their Elise.

Oh, and Honda does have a factory turbo. K23a. :)

[LXRY]

evo and euro once again cannot compare... euro is designed as luxury/family/sports car.. evo is designed as full on sports...

evo compares with wrx/sti/gtr/etc
euro compares with audii a4/mazda 6/liberty/bmw 3

if your after sports car, and u wanna go fast, get the evo now..........

You are dead right....When I was shopping for a car looked at buying evo, I loved the thought of having all that power, but, when i put the family in the back everyone complaining "no room". So pocket rocket/sports car vs family car that I could mod and still put the family in, well I chose euro ;)


....................The REAL question is, should Honda have made the Euro Accord Rear Wheel Drive? :) After all it's supposed to compete in the luxury Euro market, where BMW and Merc are mostly RWD, and Audi and many others are going AWD. I like that the BMW commercials are trying to convince people that RWD is safer than FWD. The main reason Toyota didn't make the last Celica RWD (they were thinking about it) was survey results showing people thought FWD was safer.


Also consider alot of these countries have alot of snow....FWD safer option alright.

I drive my car hard and fast in all conditions even when it rains, I never take my foot off because it's wet. The combination between VSA and FWD is awsome, especially when you lower the euro !! Love to see a BMW or Merc RWD take a corner like I do in the rain, lol.

Getting back to the question ask by the thread starter..If Honda gave me an option I'de go with whatever gave me more power without comprimising on fuel economy, so either turbo or vtec for me as long as it was factory fitted ;)

[EK Civic R]

I would have thought it would be cheaper just to get more boost, and easier to grind your own cams and spend the money on something else. *shrug*


It's much easier and cheaper to boost up.. I think it was costing around the $10K mark, maybe a little more. The blue S15 I was talking about earlier revs up 9000 rpm, but driveability on the streets is piss poor, as you would imagine.. But boosted up and with vtec, too much power.. overkill to the max

[Shraka]

Also consider alot of these countries have alot of snow....FWD safer option alright.
Don't see a problem with RWD in the snow, and apparently neither do their target audience. Mercedes and BMW predominantly make RWDs selling to the same markets the Euro Accord is sold to, as I said above. I'd saw FWD was chosen for packaging reasons, or so they could use a pre-existing FWD chassis to base the car on (I'm not sure of the relation between the standard Accord and Accord Euro).


I drive my car hard and fast in all conditions even when it rains, I never take my foot off because it's wet. The combination between VSA and FWD is awsome, especially when you lower the euro !!
If you don't slow down in the wet you're either going too slow in the dry, or too fast in the wet.


Love to see a BMW or Merc RWD take a corner like I do in the rain, lol.
Exactly like you do? No. Faster than you do? Sure. RWD has more available grip through a corner, and BMWs have stability control too ya know.

[bentusi123]

all accord euro has Vtec.
turbo?i think u gonna change the gear box and maybe need rebuild the engine for sure.
the good thing about honda is they can build a fast car without turbo, unlike others.

[IVTECS4]

VTEC and maybe supercharging is on the cards for me :p

[Suntzu]

You guys all missed the RDX.

Available in the USA as a high end crv it has a 2.3l motor with a turbo. its based on the CRV chassis. Its pretty low boost and would fit straight in a Euro I would imagine.


see http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2007/acura/rdx/specifications/index.html

2007 Acura RDX Base Sport Utility Performance & Efficiency Standard Features
-
Turbo compressor
-
2,300 cc 2.3 liters in-line 4 front engine with 86 mm bore, 99 mm stroke, 8.8 compression ratio, double overhead cam, variable valve timing/camshaft and four valves per cylinder
-
Premium unleaded fuel 91
-
Fuel economy EPA highway (mpg): 23 and EPA city (mpg): 19
-
Multi-point injection fuel system
-
18 gallon main premium unleaded fuel tank
-
Power: 179 kW , 240 HP SAE @ 6,000 rpm; 260 ft lb , 353 Nm @ 4,500 rpm

Then you get VTEC AND FACTORY TURBO. WINNA!

[EUR003act]

nice find russ, except aaronng did mention the K23 a few posts back :p lol

its interesting to see how far they dropped compression on the motor to add on turbo!

its probably just the K24 block but using shorter (86mm compared to K24s 87mm) stroke to lower compression :D

mmmm it would be easy fit into our euro, but getting the ecu to run it would be the fun part lol...

[LXRY]

Don't see a problem with RWD in the snow, and apparently neither do their target audience. Mercedes and BMW predominantly make RWDs selling to the same markets the Euro Accord is sold to, as I said above. I'd saw FWD was chosen for packaging reasons, or so they could use a pre-existing FWD chassis to base the car on (I'm not sure of the relation between the standard Accord and Accord Euro).


If you don't slow down in the wet you're either going too slow in the dry, or too fast in the wet.


Exactly like you do? No. Faster than you do? Sure. RWD has more available grip through a corner, and BMWs have stability control too ya know.

So you saying that RWD is safer than FWD ?

[aaronng]

nice find russ, except aaronng did mention the K23 a few posts back :p lol

its interesting to see how far they dropped compression on the motor to add on turbo!

its probably just the K24 block but using shorter (86mm compared to K24s 87mm) stroke to lower compression :D

mmmm it would be easy fit into our euro, but getting the ecu to run it would be the fun part lol...

RDX didn't really do too well though, because it had worse fuel consumption than the heavier MDX with its 3.5L engine, while having less power and poorer performance than the MDX. LOL

[EUR003act]

RDX didn't really do too well though, because it had worse fuel consumption than the heavier MDX with its 3.5L engine, while having less power and poorer performance than the MDX. LOL

hahaha thats heaps funny! lol ill stay with my beefed up VTEC :D

[Suntzu]

Yes bu the RDX is heavy and 4wd.

I reckon the K23 turbo in a euro, with lower weight, a much lower cd would be quite efficient. Not to mention a hoot.

You got to look at engines in a given application. Not just in isolation. I would be writing off honda turbos just yet...

[johnprocter]

chuck the k23 turbo in a honda city yeeeewwwww now we're talking LOL

[DanVR4]

After being used to having useable torque from 1500rpm to pull out from streets in 2nd or 3rd gear, then driving a turbo (specifically 2.0L) around town and finding nothing worthwhile below 2800-3500rpm. Don't get me wrong, on boost is great but it starts late and ends early, for me it's a let down.

Sorry getting off topic. :)

Having said that my 2.3L 4 cylinder with lumpy cams and a big turbo behaved similarly to the Euro from idle to 2400rpm. From there onwards it had bucketloads more torque, and could easily overtake at 100km/h or power up hill without having to change gears.

And modern engines/turbo's have come along way from my 90's engine with a bush-bearing truck turbo.

I think people forget though that this car isn't a powerful sports car. It's a mid-sized 4 door semi-luxury car with ample power and good fuel economy. Personally, I think it would be a shame to move the car too far from it's origins.

But back on topic people, please! :p

[IVTECS4]

Yes bu the RDX is heavy and 4wd.

I reckon the K23 turbo in a euro, with lower weight, a much lower cd would be quite efficient. Not to mention a hoot.

You got to look at engines in a given application. Not just in isolation. I would be writing off honda turbos just yet...

It's just like the Mazda CX7 - a 2.3 turbo engine hauling 1.9 tonnes of weight, not helped by a 6 speed auto that 'hunts' - which is worse for fuel economy... it's bigger brother - the CX9 with the 3.5 V6 faired a little better than the CX7 even though it weighed about 2 tonnes. - going back to that business about the RDX having worse economy to the MDX...

Anyway back on topic... :p