Suspension set up for mountainy roads.

[hooyn]

hey, so im basically wondering what kind of suspension set up would provide

the best handling for twisty roads.

I am a complete noob to this and have

always wondered how to optimize handling on twistyful hilly roads. :).

btw. drive a euro so far all i've done is got some tein SS and upgraded swaybars

[simonnowis]

tein ss are too soft for that kind of driving, something abit harder would be better for alot of twisty rds,
iv noticed a diff after installing strut bars along with swaybars to.

[EKVTIR-T]

Hooyn do you find that you get more body roll with the SS compared to stock?
What setting do you use?
Should put an uprated rear swaybar on.

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

Henry you are going to want ALOT stiffer coilovers for a starter

Wider tyres

Uprated Rear Swaybar (as above poster said)

and to say the very least a seat that is going to hold you in place

Henry i cannot stress that enough

If you are moving around while going around a corner atm with the standard Euro seats you are going to lose out on time in the track and on twisty roads due to not being able to control the car

[hooyn]

There is A LOT less roll than stock lol. The stock euro has 4wd stance LOL.
I've upgraded my rear sway bar.
The SS are on the stiffest setting from memory and there is no gap between wheel and arch, however I felt it was scrubbing the last time I was on a twisty road.
So will most likely raise it a bit.
Tires are 8.5" wide.

[moo moo nel]

If you are hardcore enough on mountains you will need Tein Mono Flex "Winding Master"

[bennjamin]

huh ? ALOT stiffer ?


For ACTUAL MOUNTAIN ROADS ~ you require springs that are not too stiff at all. They require to be progressive. "mountain" roads differ in angle/gradient/concave constantly and require a setup that will be able to drive thru with changes in pitch and direction.Without risk of binding of any suspension component's Just a thought.

PS what suits in BEST MOTORING is NOT the best setup. Look at how the cars HOBBLE all over the place...running stupid stiff track rates....no no no

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

But i thought that having alot stiffer suspension (and perhaps some camber) in turn would have allowed less wobbling around for those hard runs?

[bennjamin]

STIFF suspension only suits TRACK work.

WHY ? because tracks are almost totally flat and generally no real dips or gradients compared to real roads.

You need proper suspension travel to get the most of your car around real roads - too stiff and you will loose speed and agility. The car will "hobble" around corners giving differing handling.

IMO a road car with just upgraded swaybars will handle better than a car with just stiff coilovers.

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

All good :)

Thanks for the schooling ben

[bennjamin]

wait for some properly educated replies lol.

But you understand my point :)

stiff is cool for lowering. But shite for road handling.

[PNS 001_EG3]

wait for some properly educated replies lol.

But you understand my point :)

stiff is cool for lowering. But shite for road handling.

this mans got skills... 100 percent correct.

[trism]

more pics of chicks in avatar.

other than that, everything /b/enjamin said is correct

[aaronng]

Yeah. Like what Ben said. Too stiff, and the imperfections on street roads cause your tyre to lose contact with ground when going over bumps. Less contact time = less grip.

[raz05]

Stiffest isnt always the best, u will need different tyres to suit different spring rate. Might me a good idea to invest in some better tyres if u want to have better cornering speed

[JohnL]

It depends a lot on the starting point. Some cars have very soft stock springs and will respond well to stiffer springs (and suitable dampers to match), others have stiffer stock springs and won't need stiffer springs so desperately.

Most cars other than 'sports cars' (and even some of those) could probably benefit from some increase in spring rate even for use on rougher roads (rally cars aren't all that softly sprung), just not too much...

[preludacris]

STIFF suspension only suits TRACK work.

WHY ? because tracks are almost totally flat and generally no real dips or gradients compared to real roads.

You need proper suspension travel to get the most of your car around real roads - too stiff and you will loose speed and agility. The car will "hobble" around corners giving differing handling.

IMO a road car with just upgraded swaybars will handle better than a car with just stiff coilovers.

couldnt have said it better myself.


unless u have a perfectly smooth mountain road, stiff springs and damper will suck.

[JohnL]

unless u have a perfectly smooth mountain road, stiff springs and damper will suck.

The problem with this statement is that what is or is not "stiff" is very relative (as the actress said...).

For most cars a stiffer (than stock) spring will most probably be better for handling etc than the stock spring rate (all else being equal), it's just that a lot of people go mad when fitting 'stiff' springs and fit springs that are way too stiff for a street aplication, and this can give 'stiffer' springs a bad name...

I have stock springs on my CB7 (about 180lbs front, 110 lbs rear), and these are way too soft. I suspect the rate could be almost doubled for road use and still not be too stiff even for rough roads. To compensate for the springs being too soft, I have the Konis maxed out to full stiff, and while this isn't ideal I have found that the stiffer the dampers are adjusted the better the handling is, and I drive on rough country roads every day...

[string]

To get good handling you just need to control the front-rear balance. Get a big rear swaybar and a GOOD set of shocks and that's probably all you need. Good condition bushings and GOOD TYRES should go without saying. Do these first, because no matter how 'race spec' you upgrade your suspension, sloppy balljoints and bushes will make you slow and nervous.

I have "stiff" springs but in the grand scheme of things they really aren't that stiff - 400/500 lb/in f/r. You'd need to be a little further north than this to start noticing reduced grip on the roads, I have zero issues currently (other than speed bumps being a royal pain in the butt due to the rear being twice as stiff as the front - the joys of front wheel drive). High speed turns I have way more body roll than I'd like but I'm at the point where I don't want any stiffer on the road.

Progressive springs suck full-stop. If you want to go fast, don't get them. If you want a comfortable lowered ride then they are good. Ask anyone with linear springs and I bet they will agree.

As far as height goes, I say go as low as you can without bottoming out the shock or the upper control arm. This is definitely going to be higher than you think. A good few cm between the tyre and the wheel arch is good, with the rear a tad higher.

If you're getting throw out of the seat you need to control your own body weight! Keep your core locked and lean with your hips/lats a little bit as you turn.

Edit: I'd much prefer to be sliding over a bumpy mountain road than be struggling to keep the sprung weight under control. Soft dampers make driving fast difficult no matter what the road. Driver feedback also makes things much more fun.

[nd55]

> STIFF suspension only suits TRACK work.

x2 IMHO.

My tips for a very basic road racing setup would be:

1: Good tyres, AD07, RE01R, RT-615s. Not all sizes are available in each range. Then get it aligned properly. Typical alignment means checking if it is within specs. You want 1.5 - 2.5 degrees negative camber and probably zero toe.

2: New shocks. Not necessarily super duper ones. Two front Koni reds if the budget is tight. Chances are stock has worn, and you'll loose the front in tight transitions.

3. Seat belt locking clip. Yes, it's normally used to lock baby capsules in. Best value restraint available short of a harness. Takes some getting used to, you just have to cinch it up tight.

http://www.newmum.com.au/?page_id=15


Nick.

[hooyn]

Regarding shocks and springs. I got Tein SS. So i would want softer at the front and stiffer at the back. I initially only bought them just to lower with height adjustability however I'm now having second thoughts about them, perhaps upgrading to Tein Mono Flex. Or would the SS set up be suitable enough since they are "Super Street" ?

please excuse my noobn3ss

[SeverAMV]

bennjamin has the right thought process. but it generally depends on the hills. if the hills you go through are as smooth as they are in america, then feel free to run whatever spring rate tickles you fancy. but if you're driving thru hills downunder, where the road is anything but smooth, you're better off with stiffer springs and firmer shocks. coilovers are a bit too much for the hills, you'll find that every little bump can unsettle your traction.

rear sway bar and sway brace like the asr package would be useful if your car has a tendency to understeer.

over here in sa, springs around 5kg/mm front and 3.5-4kg/mm rear seem to work best for a fair few. and despite people's claims that pedders shocks are crap, they work fairly well in a workmate's car. the main thing you should be trying to deal with when tuning suspension for hills is a balance of stiffness and body roll. too much body roll makes it annoying, but too little can cause your little ff to get all four wheels sideways.

tyres are important, as is the suspension settings. camber and toe varies depending on the course you go to. if there are more sharp consecutive corners and the road has minimal embankment, then it wouldnt be too bad to have a little camber and a little toe. too much embankment and you'll want less toe. not as many corners and you may want less camber, etc. for the most part, its just trial and error.

tein ss should be fine, just dont lower it too much. what most people dont seem to get is that too low can equal too slow. its all to do with suspension geometry. when race car tuners lower cars, they lower them to the point where the centre of gravity is low and optimised (often between the wheels). factory suspension has the centre of gravity higher than optimal in most cases, and people who lower their cars so that theyre an inch from the ground have it too low, which is just as bad as too high.

[JohnL]

I would also highly reccomend front and rear strut braces for improved response and 'feel'.

Despite what many will tell you they do work, but only good quality ones. For "good quality" read 'rigid', and that also means the attachment brackets which are just as important to the braces function as the bracing bar itself.

I suspect that the stiffer the spring and / or damper rates, the more beneficial strut braces will tend to be, but I'm only speculating as I haven't the experience with these braces other than with Konis set at full stiff. I know for certain that if the struts are removed the car feels significantly 'sloppier'.

[hooyn]

So
Now I'm going to raise about 2cm. Adjust the front to 12 and rear to 10. Getting a front strut bar. [Rear strut for a euro?]
Going to change from 18x8.5 to 17x8.
Opinions

[aaronng]

Get the lower arm bar as well. That one improves steering response more than the front strut bar on the Euro.

[hooyn]

I wouldnt need to upgrade the front sway as well would i? I've noticed that people have been upgrading the rear as the front is already strong enough. I guess it would be better to upgrade anyway.

[aaronng]

Upgrading the front sway bar would also improve steering response. But too stiff at the front and you get soem understeer. Plus, to install the front sway bar is fiddly as you will have to lower the subframe a bit. You can buy aftermarket front sway bars. Swift sells a set.

[nigs]

Careful with a stiffer rear setup.
People tend to think having more oversteer in a FWD car is good.
But if you're nailing it through mountain passes, you're not gonna have much room for error. Tighter roads, traffic etc.

Track is fine though, I ran this setup and adjusted accordingly throughout the day. Spinning out was no biggy.
Touge style driving doesn't offer such a luxury.

I think it's a compromise between a softer setting to absorb bumps + road imperfection. And a stiffer setting to allow for more feedback and less body roll.

If you're hitting 140-150km/hr at the end of some straights on mountain roads. Then you'd want as much tyre to road contact when you drop anchor. Heh.

Super Duper Awesome tyres usually save the day though.

[kongfu]

You need to adjust the camber setting..If you are in melb, go to centreline.they are the best in melb.

[string]

The stiffer you make the front, the further you are from neutral-steer at any longitudinally acceleration.

If you want steering response get ready for the onslaught of understeer that comes with it.

nigs: Got a story to tell about your experience with the rear biased setup?

[aaronng]

It is easy to lose it if you are pushing 10/10 with a FWD "oversteery" setup. I had that on the track once, when I thought, oversteer should be good. When I had to slightly reduce the throttle (not total lift off) to stop understeering when I entered a corner too hot, it would go straight to oversteer with no neutral steering to keep the car happy. Needless to say, I changed it back to a more neutral setup the next time I went to track.

[string]

What was your setup aaronng? Maybe you should have tried the handbrake instead of less throttle :D

Even the stiffest rear-biased setup won't snap-oversteer for no reason. If you were smooth with the throttle, the rear to front weight transfer will be smooth, and the transition from under-steer has to go through neutral-steer before over-steer. Obviously when it comes to a race-track you've got all sorts of inputs pushing your tyres god knows where. I can see how what happened to you could happen over a small bump. Can't blame driver balance issues on the setup! Unless of course your setup was 400/1000 with a fatty rear swaybar in which case you've done it horrible wrong :)

I guess you've uncovered the problem with a loose fwd setup like this - you have to dedicate to the corner because there's not many inputs you can give to slow you down without causing major over-steer. This is why you shouldn't drive fast on the streets!!