B18C7 turbo.....dont use AVO.....read on....

[IEVAQ8]

hey guys.............

some issues i encountered while boosting my dc2r using avo stage 2 turbo kit...............

once it was all installed and ready for tune, i drove it to the workshop, had the injectors installed and ecu and onto the dyno she went..............

3 hours of tuning went buy and we had sorted out the low cam, with boost (8psi) the car made a healthy 145kw at 5000rpm..........

so next was for VTEC and boost...............

we found that once the car was on vtec and at around 6500rpm onwards it was making a wierd ticking noise from the head.....................so we stopped tuning, we couldnt figure out what it was and why, after another 2 hours of playing with the fuel and timing map......(we pulled timing out and gave it more fuel same sh#t)................the car eventually made 180kw at 7000rpm.............(we thought it was a spark issue)

so i was cruzing the car around for a week or so (to work and back, keeping it under 4000rpm) and decided to change a few things...............new dizzy cap, rotor button, spark plugs, new leads..........new vtec solenoid filter and fresh oil and filter............

so back for tuning and hopefully make some power..............

back on the dyno and a more precise map of tuning and away we went........same sh#t.................so i left the car there for them to figure it out.................

next day, the tuner and mechanics had a look at the car and discovered that:
it seemed as though on 8psi once the car got into the vtec range with only 20degrees timing and the correct fuel map, the car detonates its head off.................
the guys at the shop decided to trial and error........
so...............
by disconnecting the internal wastgate sirclip (that holds the flap closed unless the gate is opened by boost pressure) they gave it a run with the flap being held open fully...............the car managed to make a max of 2psi but no detonation at all............
then they gave the car 28degrees timing or so re-did the fuel map, and it again managed 2psi and made a healthy 170kw or so @ 7000rpm with everything going right...........

so the conclusion we have come to............
it seems as though the turbo's rear housing (garrett t28 roller with 0.86 rear exhaust housing) is too small, and is creating too much back pressure as it has a tiny rear exhaust wheel (not enough flow), which causes the exhaust fumes back into the head, which causes the detonation

now please dont get me wrong..........
im NOT slagging on AVO, as the guys there are great and helpfull........just giving you guys some info and a heads up if you own a b18c7..........and want to use AVO's turbo kit

from here, we are now presently about to strip the turbo and get a new bigger rear exhaust wheel put into it (high flow exhaust housing) and put it back together and see what happenes...............

i'll keep you posted.........

if anyone has any questions about the kit or anything related i will do my best to answer to the best of my knowledge/experience, otherwise i will not answer at all.

cheers
Tom

[040501912]

wow! how much money u spent on the DYNO!! just to do that.. OMFG !! it could get you a new gt2835 or something !! ...

good luck with the tune mate.. i heart ur pain...

[cracker]

thats a great story..hope works out 4 u

[DLO01]

Yeh, man, not good. Hope you get it sorted soon.

Good flowing manifold, large rear housing and external wastegate FTW! :thumbsup:

I had a Stage II Avo kit on my B16A2 Delsol. Very fun car to drive and had no problems whatsoever.

[IEVAQ8]

wow! how much money u spent on the DYNO!! just to do that.. OMFG !! it could get you a new gt2835 or something !! ...

good luck with the tune mate.. i heart ur pain...

lucky the tuner is a great guy and only charged me for the original tune and the rest of it free


thats a great story..hope works out 4 u

thanks mate, so do i


Yeh, man, not good. Hope you get it sorted soon.

Good flowing manifold, large rear housing and external wastegate FTW! :thumbsup:

I had a Stage II Avo kit on my B16A2 Delsol. Very fun car to drive and had no problems whatsoever.

thanks deanno........the manifold is flowing well..........the exhaust is good too.......it must be too much exhaust back pressure in the rear housing with vtec..........will sort it out soon.............i should have done it the tuners way first time around..............but hey trial and error

[Lukezen27]

Dang

I was under the impression the Avo kits were designed motor specific hence the reason you pay the big bucks...

Your lucky your tuner new what he was going or it could have f**ked so much shit up lol

[IEVAQ8]

Dang

I was under the impression the Avo kits were designed motor specific hence the reason you pay the big bucks...

Your lucky your tuner new what he was going or it could have f**ked so much shit up lol

they do quote that it is suitable for the type r integra, however, they have only done all there testing and tuning on b16a............so obviously the 2 motors have differences hence the problems.............

its not that expensive..............for the kit...............i bought everything from them, except injectors and ecu

[Lukezen27]

they do quote that it is suitable for the type r integra, however, they have only done all there testing and tuning on b16a............so obviously the 2 motors have differences hence the problems.............

its not that expensive..............for the kit...............i bought everything from them, except injectors and ecu

I see

How long till your up and running?

Should be some fun once roll'n

[destrukshn]

odd, i know a person with a b18c7 with a avo stage 2 kit.
and had no problems whatsoever.
his one ran perfectly fine on 8psi.

[EGB18CT]

Tom, look into getting an ATP.com gt28rs with .82 rear housing and t3 flanged (this is the turbo im looking at getting for my build soon to run off a ramhorn and 44mm tial gate, hopefully i can squeeze in a full sized radiator some how and have 330-350hp atw)

These atp versions of the gt28rs is t3 based, .82 so it will flow considerably more than the normal variations of the gt28rs turbos i think there about 1100ish in the states (USD) i reckon you could pick up for 13-1400 shipped if you work around customs duties...

What turbo has James recommended you to step up to?

good luck and keep us posted!

[DLO01]

Are you using the OLD type Avo kit?

The new kits like I had on my delsol where a GT28R T3 internal WG.

[Limbo]

i've seen a few of the kits, the dump pipe is really close and sharp but never heard anyone having the same issue as you did

[TODA AU]

What ECU? (Is it the Link that the kit comes with?)
What other mods? (Cams? Bottom end stock? Or modified?)

[EGB18CT]

i believe is hondata s300 and stock motor??

[pornstar]

hey guys.............

some issues i encountered while boosting my dc2r using avo stage 2 turbo kit...............

once it was all installed and ready for tune, i drove it to the workshop, had the injectors installed and ecu and onto the dyno she went..............

3 hours of tuning went buy and we had sorted out the low cam, with boost (8psi) the car made a healthy 145kw at 5000rpm..........

so next was for VTEC and boost...............

we found that once the car was on vtec and at around 6500rpm onwards it was making a wierd ticking noise from the head.....................so we stopped tuning, we couldnt figure out what it was and why, after another 2 hours of playing with the fuel and timing map......(we pulled timing out and gave it more fuel same sh#t)................the car eventually made 180kw at 7000rpm.............(we thought it was a spark issue)

so i was cruzing the car around for a week or so (to work and back, keeping it under 4000rpm) and decided to change a few things...............new dizzy cap, rotor button, spark plugs, new leads..........new vtec solenoid filter and fresh oil and filter............

so back for tuning and hopefully make some power..............

back on the dyno and a more precise map of tuning and away we went........same sh#t.................so i left the car there for them to figure it out.................

next day, the tuner and mechanics had a look at the car and discovered that:
it seemed as though on 8psi once the car got into the vtec range with only 20degrees timing and the correct fuel map, the car detonates its head off.................
the guys at the shop decided to trial and error........
so...............
by disconnecting the internal wastgate sirclip (that holds the flap closed unless the gate is opened by boost pressure) they gave it a run with the flap being held open fully...............the car managed to make a max of 2psi but no detonation at all............
then they gave the car 28degrees timing or so re-did the fuel map, and it again managed 2psi and made a healthy 170kw or so @ 7000rpm with everything going right...........

so the conclusion we have come to............
it seems as though the turbo's rear housing (garrett t28 roller with 0.86 rear exhaust housing) is too small, and is creating too much back pressure as it has a tiny rear exhaust wheel (not enough flow), which causes the exhaust fumes back into the head, which causes the detonation

now please dont get me wrong..........
im NOT slagging on AVO, as the guys there are great and helpfull........just giving you guys some info and a heads up if you own a b18c7..........and want to use AVO's turbo kit

from here, we are now presently about to strip the turbo and get a new bigger rear exhaust wheel put into it (high flow exhaust housing) and put it back together and see what happenes...............

i'll keep you posted.........

if anyone has any questions about the kit or anything related i will do my best to answer to the best of my knowledge/experience, otherwise i will not answer at all.

cheers
Tom

Tom

Ive bolded the important part of what i just read. Can you confirm what you wrote cos it seems to be some sort of error. 170ish Kws at the wheels on 2psi at 7k rpms? is that what your saying????

[STOCK]

Thats wierd, do you have any other mods that would be causing this tuning issue?

I had a DC2 with a AVO stage 2 and no problems like that, my mate had a DC2R with a stage 2 and no problems like that, my workmate had a DC2 with that kit and had no problems like that. It would be a shame if your bagging out AVO turbo world mistakenly.

[STOCK]

Oh and Toda AU aka Adrian tuned mine and my mates dc2 :thumbsup: and Bel garage did the DC2R. Possibly contact them directly if your still stuck with this issue.

[Limo]

get ATP to build you a custom turbo.

the dyno is a hub dyno, so its approx 20% more than a roller dyno

[destrukshn]

Thats wierd, do you have any other mods that would be causing this tuning issue?

I had a DC2 with a AVO stage 2 and no problems like that, my mate had a DC2R with a stage 2 and no problems like that, my workmate had a DC2 with that kit and had no problems like that. It would be a shame if your bagging out AVO turbo world mistakenly.
i believe i have one your mates dc2 turbo.
lol.

[IEVAQ8]

I see

How long till your up and running?

Should be some fun once roll'n
not sure when i will have it finished..........


odd, i know a person with a b18c7 with a avo stage 2 kit.
and had no problems whatsoever.
his one ran perfectly fine on 8psi.

like i quoted (the guys at avo and there kit is great), maybe its just my luck that its gone wrong


Tom, look into getting an ATP.com gt28rs with .82 rear housing and t3 flanged (this is the turbo im looking at getting for my build soon to run off a ramhorn and 44mm tial gate, hopefully i can squeeze in a full sized radiator some how and have 330-350hp atw)

These atp versions of the gt28rs is t3 based, .82 so it will flow considerably more than the normal variations of the gt28rs turbos i think there about 1100ish in the states (USD) i reckon you could pick up for 13-1400 shipped if you work around customs duties...

What turbo has James recommended you to step up to?

good luck and keep us posted!

the only prob with changing turbo's to bigger housing means, i gotta change the manifold and modify the cooler pipes and so on................
james recommends the one and only full race manifold with a gt30 series turbo...........still not sure exactly which way i will go


Are you using the OLD type Avo kit?

The new kits like I had on my delsol where a GT28R T3 internal WG.

im not sure deanno, i only got it from them around 5months ago or so...........whats the difference between old and new kit????????????


i've seen a few of the kits, the dump pipe is really close and sharp but never heard anyone having the same issue as you did

yeh......its a shame so far

[IEVAQ8]

What ECU? (Is it the Link that the kit comes with?)
What other mods? (Cams? Bottom end stock? Or modified?)

hey ADRIAN, ecu is hondata s300 and the engine is dead stock................B18C7


i believe is hondata s300 and stock motor??

thats right


Tom

Ive bolded the important part of what i just read. Can you confirm what you wrote cos it seems to be some sort of error. 170ish Kws at the wheels on 2psi at 7k rpms? is that what your saying????

ur correct, although it is on a hub dyno.......the figures i quoted are 100% correct.
im not bragging that my car has made good power on low boost with high timing, its just to compare and allow others to understand my problem


Thats wierd, do you have any other mods that would be causing this tuning issue?

I had a DC2 with a AVO stage 2 and no problems like that, my mate had a DC2R with a stage 2 and no problems like that, my workmate had a DC2 with that kit and had no problems like that. It would be a shame if your bagging out AVO turbo world mistakenly.

like i mentioned in my first thread, i am not slaggin AVO, they are great guys and supply great product, it may just be that i have bad luck with this kit, or like deanno mentioned, the older stage 2 kit......


Oh and Toda AU aka Adrian tuned mine and my mates dc2 :thumbsup: and Bel garage did the DC2R. Possibly contact them directly if your still stuck with this issue.

thanks, i may give them a buzz............but i mean, james does know what he is doing in regards to tuning boosted hondas


get ATP to build you a custom turbo.

the dyno is a hub dyno, so its approx 20% more than a roller dyno

yeh......the turbo that i have will prob go to atp for machine work and rebuild/highflow...........again still not sure what im gonna do, and yeh, uir right, a hub dyno does usually show higher power figures

thanks for everyones help and opinions

[STOCK]

i believe i have one your mates dc2 turbo.
lol.

I beleive you do to, i heard your re-doing the bottom end?

[STOCK]

Anyhow hope you get it sorted soon, keep us posted on what you do to fix this problem.

[IEVAQ8]

Anyhow hope you get it sorted soon, keep us posted on what you do to fix this problem.

no worries man............thanks for your advise and recognition, that others have used this same turbo kit on dc2r

cheers

[IEVAQ8]

i got some info guys...............
finally spoke to AVO today, and let them know the prob im having, they put me on to there tuner rob here in melb, and he advised em that we are running too much timing, i told him that most boosted hondas love timing with boost up in the vtec range and that we have discovered that the rear housing is too small for the type r application...............

he said nah mate................ur running way to much timing, i said well, on 8psi and 20degrees timing, it is detonating its head off, and 20degrees is only 4 degrees higher than stock..............he said that when the do there turbo hondas they drop timing to 14degrees and sometimes lower, and i would be looking at making about 145kw at the wheels..................

i literally laughed at him on the phone...........lol

anyways..................i'll be pulling off the turbo hopefully in the next week or so and have the machine/hiflow work done and back for tuning to see what we can come up with.............

again, thanks guys for ur input and sugestions...........

again, i am not slaggin/bagging avo, i am just stating what they told me and the issues im having....................

[whtcrx]

Not exactly

If you're advancing the Dizzy AND adding timing on the fuel maps, then this is not good.

otherwise, what you're saying is correct and +20deg timing over the stock 14deg of the dizzy is OK, but I wouldn't go anymore.

[fatboyz39]

who is tuning your car ievaq8?

[IEVAQ8]

Not exactly

If you're advancing the Dizzy AND adding timing on the fuel maps, then this is not good.

otherwise, what you're saying is correct and +20deg timing over the stock 14deg of the dizzy is OK, but I wouldn't go anymore.

no offence.......but are you a tuner???????????
coz my tuiner, has years of experience and knowledge......................in tuning boosted hondas, with stock and modified engines


who is tuning your car ievaq8?

u knwo who it is.....................im in melb...so.....................

[krogoth]

lol, this better not become a typical shit slinging contest

[IEVAQ8]

lol, this better not become a typical shit slinging contest

yeh i hope not..................
this thread was just an eye opener for those looking at using the avo bolt on kit.......that i have had dramas with...........

[DLO01]

Avo do an ultra safe tune up. They only promise like you said 135-145kw for B series.

They are not like our tunners who safely push the limits of these motors and get much higher figures.


im not sure deanno, i only got it from them around 5months ago or so...........whats the difference between old and new kit????????????


The older kits have a smaller turbo, and other variences. The new kit, which has been around for a long time now, has a GT28R and you can upgrade to a larger rear.

[IEVAQ8]

Avo do an ultra safe tune up. They only promise like you said 135-145kw for B series.

They are not like our tunners who safely push the limits of these motors and get much higher figures.

thats exactly right.............

The older kits have a smaller turbo, and other variences. The new kit, which has been around for a long time now, has a GT28R and you can upgrade to a larger rear.


i have the new kit, and 0.86 rear housing..........but still too small for our fire breathign vtec b18c7's........lol

[Lukezen27]

no offence.......but are you a tuner???????????
coz my tuiner, has years of experience and knowledge......................in tuning boosted hondas, with stock and modified engines



u knwo who it is.....................im in melb...so.....................

If that's the case he sould know that +20deg is a bit much bro...

I'm only running +5-10deg max, just over stock in fact on my boosted D

I know B's can take more timing than D's but +20 seems a lot to me..

Hope you have aftermarket head studs instlalled?

[IEVAQ8]

If that's the case he sould know that +20deg is a bit much bro...

I'm only running +5-10deg max, just over stock in fact on my boosted D

I know B's can take more timing than D's but +20 seems a lot to me..

Hope you have aftermarket head studs instlalled?

how much boost you running????????? maybe u got low timing to compensate for the higher boost your running??

he does no what he is doing..........and is happy running above 24degrees, ofcourse, you cant just det it somewhere andf thats it, where ever the motor response the best, the timing will be adjusted to suit

but yeh i could definatly retard the timing and just run more boost.........same shit......................

head studs?????????
the motor is dead stock....top to bottom...............

[Lukezen27]

how much boost you running????????? maybe u got low timing to compensate for the higher boost your running??

he does no what he is doing..........and is happy running above 24degrees, ofcourse, you cant just det it somewhere andf thats it, where ever the motor response the best, the timing will be adjusted to suit

but yeh i could definatly retard the timing and just run more boost.........same shit......................

head studs?????????
the motor is dead stock....top to bottom...............

Only running 10psi man

Yeah head studs are to stop your head Gasket blowing from detention..

I'm running ARP Studs with the rest stock..

[IEVAQ8]

Only running 10psi man

Yeah head studs are to stop your head Gasket blowing from detention..

I'm running ARP Studs with the rest stock..

like i said, dont get me wrong and dont take offence, i have great faith in my tuner, and he knows what he is doing...........

i will post the outcome once finialised

[whtcrx]

no offence.......but are you a tuner???????????
coz my tuiner, has years of experience and knowledge......................in tuning boosted hondas, with stock and modified engines

u knwo who it is.....................im in melb...so.....................


Look - you have no idea who I am or what my background is, yet you're quick to pass judgement... Your perogative.

However, your problem (if you want to listen or not is irrelevant) is a result of too much timing (AVO guys are correct). 24deg advance for 8-10psi is overkill. It only takes <1 degree intervals for detonation to occur.

I suggest you re-read and understand what I wrote earlier.

If you dont believe me, try wind back ignition timing 4degrees to +20deg and leave the dizzy where it is. You will likely GAIN power and rid yourself of the detonation issues.
The advance timing is igniting the a/f mixture too early and combustion temps are rising too high causing detonation. This is also a function of cam timing.

Also
1. Use a EGT sensor in the tail pipe to read temps. Report them back here.
2. What are your a/f mixtures in boost?

Im here to help you so dont be quick to be judgemental.

[Lukezen27]

like i said, dont get me wrong and dont take offence, i have great faith in my tuner, and he knows what he is doing...........

i will post the outcome once finialised

I don't take offence at anything that's just discussing options :)

[IEVAQ8]

Look - you have no idea who I am or what my background is, yet you're quick to pass judgement... Your perogative.

However, your problem (if you want to listen or not is irrelevant) is a result of too much timing (AVO guys are correct). 24deg advance for 8-10psi is overkill. It only takes <1 degree intervals for detonation to occur.

I suggest you re-read and understand what I wrote earlier.

If you dont believe me, try wind back ignition timing 4degrees to +20deg and leave the dizzy where it is. You will likely GAIN power and rid yourself of the detonation issues.
The advance timing is igniting the a/f mixture too early and combustion temps are rising too high causing detonation. This is also a function of cam timing.

Also
1. Use a EGT sensor in the tail pipe to read temps. Report them back here.
2. What are your a/f mixtures in boost?

Im here to help you so dont be quick to be judgemental.

i apologies for being judgemental...........i didnt mean to...........

im only trying to get across my point, and what we have already tried...........
even with only 20degrees timing, the car didnt like it and was detonating, we also to run as low as 18degrees and still couldnt get it to shut up (stop detonating) on 8psi...........

air fuel on boost if i remember correctly is 0.8..............

again i apologies for my judgementalness.......(if thats a word) and any help would be greatly appreciated

[IEVAQ8]

I don't take offence at anything that's just discussing options :)

cheers

[Weq]

Im interested to see how this pans out.

[whtcrx]

some more info on your setup might be useful.

[IEVAQ8]

some more info on your setup might be useful.


what you wanna know>>>>>>
im happy to provide...........

[EGB18CT]

tom are all ur sensors good sounds strange that the tuner can't work It out if only I had my manifold here mini ram but will take four weeks to arrive, can u get access to another manifold or turbo? it might be out of it efficiency range and pumping in hot air? anyway good luck let us know how it pans out

[cracker]

im noob but im still interested

[Limbo]

i'm pretty sure i read on honda-tech that when you boost your honda, you reduce your timing. I never really paid that much attention when mine was getting tuned.

I'd contact James in Melb, he's supose to be pretty good in melb.
Get a second opinion on the matter. He's boosted alot of honda also, and is always happy to give advice.

Also don't forget AVO is a pretty big name Aust. and have been doing it for years, i'm sure they know what they are talking about also.

[krogoth]

james is his tuner

[CRXer]

I'd contact James in Melb, he's supose to be pretty good in melb.
Get a second opinion on the matter. He's boosted alot of honda also, and is always happy to give advice.



Have a quick reread of the thread

[Lukezen27]

james is his tuner

BLKCRX James?

[krogoth]

^id say ur correct

[Lukezen27]

^id say ur correct

Well if its the same guy he sure should knows what's hes doing...

I've following his stuff and read about it for years lol

I'll keep quite now :p

[Limbo]

have a read of this one

http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=109

hmmmm dunno then, after reading the post from Hondatech (which is Jame's site) i was pretty sure that the more you advance the more detonation you would likely get. SOmeone else have a read and let me know if you come to the same conclusion

[Limbo]

dunno now i'm totally confused. I'll have to talk to Adrian next time and ask him also what my tune is like. I forgot where i put my dyno charts.....

let us know how you go anyway.

P.S - i'd put a bigger turbo on you car anyway the T28R is abit small for a 1.8ltr. a GT3 or GT28RS would be more like what you would want

[jimmeh]

Guys a typical Honda engine from factory will run 26 to 28deg on the factory ECU for 95 octane fuel at full throttle

A tuned Honda NA engine on 98 octane fuel will run 32 deg give or take what it likes.

A boosted Honda engine at 1 or 2 psi easily run 30deg

Going by principle you regard the ignition 1 degree for every 1 psi you come up with this, assuming the engine likes it…

3psi = 29deg
4psi = 28deg
5psi = 27deg
6psi = 26deg
7psi = 25deg

Now for Tom to be running 20 deg on 6.5psi and still having ignition problems, and is required to run 5 deg ignition timing to stop it from detonating something has to be mechanical wrong.. or as Tom puts it the AVO kit he has just isn’t suited for his car, buyer beware.

To cut a long story short Tom’s setup and combination isn’t correct, building and designing engines to make power requires more than internet research, I think this case just proves it even more, clearly the turbo is to small as Tom has already started, and his tuners experiment on the dyno proves this, I think AVO sold him the wrong turbo, with the wrong exhaust wheel to flow the necessary amount of air required on a turbo Vtec. I guess this is why Tom said in his first post his tuner has recommended his next stage is to change the turbo for a larger one to solve the problem, bring on a GT30 or larger.

[fatboyz39]

how much do the AVO kits go for?

Seems like the turbo is the problem. Put a big sucker on there like GT35R.

[jimmeh]

Tom already knows the turbo is the problem, 5 pages of discussion on here to come up with the same conclusion Tom already had in his first post…. Pointless.
GT30 or larger with a nice manifold … AVO SAY NO

[krogoth]

so its not a AVO kit problem then?

its just being a bit too ambitious with a kit suited for 140kw or so right?

so if the boost was scaled back to bring back only 140kw or so then it should be ok right?

and now with a larger turbo and manifold and a re-tune, everything should be fine again, hopefully

[jimmeh]

I think the whole point of this post is that the AVO kit IS the problem, the turbo kit in Toms case is not sized correctly for his setup.

[pornstar]

lol, this is funny. So many cars run them with no problems, i dont get it.

i also dont see how 2psi makes 170kws, even if the dyno reads high.

[IEVAQ8]

thanks for clearing things up jimmey....................

again guys, just like my first post, and jimmeh's response................

the conclusion is that the turbo is too small.................

for cost of AVO kit, i paid $4500, i got everything from them, except ecu and injectors................... including in that $4500 i had the rear exhaust housing machined to 0.86.................but again... the issue is that avo does use this kit well..........but wont claim any more power figures above 150kw................

like deanno mentioned, they (avo) run very conservative as they not honda nuts/specialists, where as our tuners have the knowledge and RnD to push these motors a lot further without any problems or fear of anything going wrong............

[fatboyz39]

for cost of AVO kit, i paid $4500, i got everything from them, except ecu and injectors................... including in that $4500 i had the rear exhaust housing machined to 0.86.................but again... the issue is that avo does use this kit well..........but wont claim any more power figures above 150kw................


Was that your choice to buy that AVO kit? $4.5k would get you a nice turbo setup from the US and make shitloads more power not to mention the quality parts used.

I've seen a AFI kit with a GT35R on a stock b16a make over 180kw atw on 8-9psi of boost. :zip::zip:

[IEVAQ8]

Was that your choice to buy that AVO kit? $4.5k would get you a nice turbo setup from the US and make shitloads more power not to mention the quality parts used.

I've seen a AFI kit with a GT35R on a stock b16a make over 180kw atw on 8-9psi of boost. :zip::zip:

yeh at the time...........i wasnt thinking and didnt listen to my tuner..........

and wanted a nice small responsive little adtr approved kit..........

but like i said, i didnt research enough before buying..........

ohh well.....mistakes are mnade for a reason.............to learn...lol

[EGB18CT]

4.5k for an avo kit tom! geez, im getting a min ram, 3" down pipe and wg pipe flanged bunged and flexi for 850us add a turbo for 1.1k wastegate 215 for 38mm or 320-350 for a 44 tial 650cc rc 350, 250 for 2.5" al cooler pipe well under 4.5k! see when it all arrives here in a few weeks i hope then i can start on the internals hehehe.

If you want response get a ATP.com gt28rs flanged t3 .82 a/r it will flow enough for 330-370hp (what im thinking of getting) otherwise if you want a bit more lag the gt3071 is also nice. - there are good dyno graphs that mite suit you on evanstuning.com with setup details included

GET RID OF THE T28r!!

[IEVAQ8]

4.5k for an avo kit tom! geez, im getting a min ram, 3" down pipe and wg pipe flanged bunged and flexi for 850us add a turbo for 1.1k wastegate 215 for 38mm or 320-350 for a 44 tial 650cc rc 350, 250 for 2.5" al cooler pipe well under 4.5k! see when it all arrives here in a few weeks i hope then i can start on the internals hehehe.

If you want response get a ATP.com gt28rs flanged t3 .82 a/r it will flow enough for 330-370hp (what im thinking of getting) otherwise if you want a bit more lag the gt3071 is also nice. - there are good dyno graphs that mite suit you on evanstuning.com with setup details included

GET RID OF THE T28r!!

yeh i know..............but i wasnt thinking when i got it.......like i mentioned, i wanted adr approved............but sometimes its not worth it,............

ohh well, i'll see how i go this time around, i also got a full race manifold and turbo lined up..........so will see what happens./.................i will need half size radiator and new exhaust and no more air con............so will see which path i take ........lol

[Weq]

Tom already knows the turbo is the problem, 5 pages of discussion on here to come up with the same conclusion Tom already had in his first post…. Pointless.
GT30 or larger with a nice manifold … AVO SAY NO

Ummm external gate and a differnet manifold will fix the issue. if the problem is back-pressure. Its all about by-passing the turbine. There is no restriction if the turbine is by-passed.

We know that the turbo is NOT the issue. Its more the turbo systems design. Dont confuse things. RS, R, 71R run the exact same turbine, both turbos are well known for producing great response on the turbo vtec monster.

OP: My advice would be to uninstall the avo kit (sell to a normal bseries guys) and get something custom fabbed up. No point in running that shitty charge piping with a more capable setup. It would have to be modified anyways.

PS.
James, dont be afriad to post under your own name.

[IEVAQ8]

Ummm external gate and a differnet manifold will fix the issue. if the problem is back-pressure. Its all about by-passing the turbine. There is no restriction if the turbine is by-passed.

We know that the turbo is NOT the issue. Its more the turbo systems design. Dont confuse things. RS, R, 71R run the exact same turbine, both turbos are well known for producing great response on the turbo vtec monster.

PS.
James, dont be afriad to post under your own name.

it may be an otion to change manifold, and weld open the internal gate, and use external gate........
good thinking...........

but will see
thanks

[Weq]

it may be an otion to change manifold, and weld open the internal gate, and use external gate........
good thinking...........

but will see
thanks

You want the gate welded shut :) Get a nice tubluar short (log, mini-ram) with 44mm gate. thats probably your cheapest route.

[IEVAQ8]

You want the gate welded shut :) Get a nice tubluar short (log, mini-ram) with 44mm gate. thats probably your cheapest route.


if i weld it shut..........it creats the back pressure.....causing the probs atm...........
like i said dont know what im gonna do.............

[Weq]

if i weld it shut..........it creats the back pressure.....causing the probs atm...........
like i said dont know what im gonna do.............

Wow. you are special man. Hope you dont get taken on for a ride.

[DLO01]

Weq is right. Thats what I was getting at on my 1st post.

[IEVAQ8]

Wow. you are special man. Hope you dont get taken on for a ride.

yyyy????????


Weq is right. Thats what I was getting at on my 1st post.

i dont understand deanno.............i may seem like a nob atm....but better to ask now than when its too late..............

[Weq]

yyyy????????



i dont understand deanno.............i may seem like a nob atm....but better to ask now than when its too late..............

When u are detonating. Its already too late.

[IEVAQ8]

When u are detonating. Its already too late.

it aint anymore.........only on original tune for a couple of runs........

so far car still strong........and no probs..............

[Weq]

it aint anymore.........only on original tune for a couple of runs........

so far car still strong........and no probs..............

Well good. Because rule number one. It only takes one bit of detonation to cause engine failure. Cout yourself lucky. Our pistons where never designed to take the abuse, thats why a tune on a honda is soooooooo important. They arnt forgiving at all. Thats why understanding turbo systems, sounds, feels is essential to the longevity of your boost NA engine. Thats why i am so critical, ignorance wont rebuild/replace your engine. Only money will.

Oh and man, my last peice of advice. Ive been in similiar situations before. I even new alot more then your. But i still got taken for a ride. Im not blaming anyone or pointing fingers at anything. But just because someone calls themselves an expert, or just because someone has a list of cars as credentials to back them up. does not mean they have any clue what they are talking about. This industry is full of bullshit, full of amatures passing themselves off as anything but. You need to be informed so u can make educated descions on what to beleive and what not to beleive. You see the AVO guys, they are well respected in some communitys. They are probably have a laugh out back about the idiot with the type-r who is running 20+degs of timing on his boosted 11.1:1 compression motor. Just the same way you are laughing at them. I hope you can see my point....

Like i said, dont get taken for a ride. Honda-tech is a great place to learn. One of the great things about it, is all the scammers and shamers out there get ousted. Only the best tuners and builders survive. These guys have proved there weight on gold. And there advice is worth there weight in gold.

[IEVAQ8]

Well good. Because rule number one. It only takes one bit of detonation to cause engine failure. Cout yourself lucky. Our pistons where never designed to take the abuse, thats why a tune on a honda is soooooooo important. They arnt forgiving at all. Thats why understanding turbo systems, sounds, feels is essential to the longevity of your boost NA engine. Thats why i am so critical, ignorance wont rebuild/replace your engine. Only money will.

very true.........
and i thank you for your help and awareness

[z3lda]

i got some info guys...............
finally spoke to AVO today, and let them know the prob im having, they put me on to there tuner rob here in melb, and he advised em that we are running too much timing, i told him that most boosted hondas love timing with boost up in the vtec range and that we have discovered that the rear housing is too small for the type r application...............

he said nah mate................ur running way to much timing, i said well, on 8psi and 20degrees timing, it is detonating its head off, and 20degrees is only 4 degrees higher than stock..............he said that when the do there turbo hondas they drop timing to 14degrees and sometimes lower, and i would be looking at making about 145kw at the wheels..................

i literally laughed at him on the phone...........lol

anyways..................i'll be pulling off the turbo hopefully in the next week or so and have the machine/hiflow work done and back for tuning to see what we can come up with.............

again, thanks guys for ur input and sugestions...........

again, i am not slaggin/bagging avo, i am just stating what they told me and the issues im having....................

You should understand that the power figures they qoute are from roller dynos, NOT hub dynos

No qoutes figures off a hub dyno except for you

[IEVAQ8]

You should understand that the power figures they qoute are from roller dynos, NOT hub dynos

No qoutes figures off a hub dyno except for you

i understand that..............
but the main concern here, is the amount of timing they claim to run, and what we are running...........
avo claim that we are runnig way too much timing............

but i know for a fact as JIMMEH quoted, that its nowhere near too much

plus, im not chasing power........trying to make it a nice smooth curve....without detonation.............

[krogoth]

for some reason ive thought ur car has been boosted for a long time ivaq8?

but it sounds like ur in the process of doing it now for the first time right?

so its not that uve been running conservative tuning and now uve decided to get more power out of it that its giving u problems?

[IEVAQ8]

for some reason ive thought ur car has been boosted for a long time ivaq8?

but it sounds like ur in the process of doing it now for the first time right?

so its not that uve been running conservative tuning and now uve decided to get more power out of it that its giving u problems?

yeh the kit has only been on the car for about 4 weeks......

thats right, its been giving me trouble from 1st day of tuning.......lol

hence this thread

[7ypeR]

turbo vtec ftw!! :honda:

[IEVAQ8]

turbo vtec ftw!! :honda:

not at the moment.........lol

[Benson]

so much trouble for boost... stick with N/a and be happy

[IEVAQ8]

so much trouble for boost... stick with N/a and be happy

im thinking about it

[Lukezen27]

so much trouble for boost... stick with N/a and be happy

If I had $$$$$$$$$$$ I would Benson :p

[EKVTIR-T]

so much trouble for boost... stick with N/a and be happy

Yeah spend 5-10k to get 30kw atw increase lol :thumbsup:
And a narrow powerband that's useless for street/daily driving.;)

[TODA AU]

Though the AVO kit isn’t top shelf, it can be made to work & work relatively well.
Not all engines behave the same as each other,
So rather than adhering to a set of numbers or method of tuning that you believe should work & then blaming the parts or product.
Why not try & give the engine what it wants?

Other things that may present problems could be things as simple as the heat range of the plugs used.
We generally run 1~2 heat ranges colder than stock with turbocharged N/A engines for the very reason you are having issues.
Std DC2 R plug is PFR7G-11 (Heat range 7)
Have you tried using 8’s or 9’s with the gap closed to 0.8~0.9mm?
Hope that helps

[fatboyz39]

Yeah spend 5-10k to get 30kw atw increase lol :thumbsup:
And a narrow powerband that's useless for street/daily driving.;)

Been down both route.. turbo was just for kicks and the turbo sound. But the real fun comes from a semi built Honda N/A motor. I find a N/A motor is better for daily driving then a turbo motor

[fatboyz39]

Though the AVO kit isn’t top shelf, it can be made to work & work relatively well.
Not all engines behave the same as each other,
So rather than adhering to a set of numbers or method of tuning that you believe should work & then blaming the parts or product.
Why not try & give the engine what it wants?

Other things that may present problems could be things as simple as the heat range of the plugs used.
We generally run 1~2 heat ranges colder than stock with turbocharged N/A engines for the very reason you are having issues.
Std DC2 R plug is PFR7G-11 (Heat range 7)
Have you tried using 8’s or 9’s with the gap closed to 0.8~0.9mm?
Hope that helps

If his tuner knows what he is doing, then that would of been one of the first things he would've of changed..

Good advice tho

[EKVTIR-T]

Been down both route.. turbo was just for kicks and the turbo sound. But the real fun comes from a semi built Honda N/A motor. I find a N/A motor is better for daily driving then a turbo motor

Yeah if it's got a reasonable powerband and not purely topend.
Maybe with a 2.0l or bigger.

Otherwise I personally think boost for street and na for circuit.
But we've all got our own ideas..

[IEVAQ8]

Though the AVO kit isn’t top shelf, it can be made to work & work relatively well.
Not all engines behave the same as each other,
So rather than adhering to a set of numbers or method of tuning that you believe should work & then blaming the parts or product.
Why not try & give the engine what it wants?

Other things that may present problems could be things as simple as the heat range of the plugs used.
We generally run 1~2 heat ranges colder than stock with turbocharged N/A engines for the very reason you are having issues.
Std DC2 R plug is PFR7G-11 (Heat range 7)
Have you tried using 8’s or 9’s with the gap closed to 0.8~0.9mm?
Hope that helps

for plugs: i am using bkr7e-11 pre gapped at 1.0 mm......hasnt mis-fired yet.....

i understand that not evey engine is the same.hence why u must tune every engine differently........but even if we give the engine what it wants.......
it mean 8degrees of total timing on 8psi................just to stop detonation.......lol

thanks for all your help & suggestions adrian...........

[z3lda]

why do you have to use "........" makes it so confusing to read.

[IEVAQ8]

why do you have to use "........" makes it so confusing to read.

what u talking bout??????

[TODA AU]

why do you have to use "........" makes it so confusing to read.

LOL, because I tap the . button when I'm thinking...
& it's a bad habbit of mine too... :p
(I & many others on this site are not English teachers)

[IEVAQ8]

LOL, because I tap the . button when I'm thinking...
& it's a bad habbit of mine too... :p
(I & many others on this site are not English teachers)

lol..............lol

hahahha

[Limbo]

so let me get this straight....

The AVO kit works but for the power you want it causes dentonation, unless you run less timing.

A bigger turbo would be better for your setup (which i fully agree)....

But end of the day the AVO kit will work so long as its tuned to the car???

Is that wat we have finally come up with?
So that means its just a tuning issue to make the kit work? (even if it doesn't produce magic numbers)

................

[cracker]

.........................................interesti ng...really...quite interesting...

[IEVAQ8]

so let me get this straight....

The AVO kit works but for the power you want it causes dentonation, unless you run less timing.

A bigger turbo would be better for your setup (which i fully agree)....

But end of the day the AVO kit will work so long as its tuned to the car???

Is that wat we have finally come up with?
So that means its just a tuning issue to make the kit work? (even if it doesn't produce magic numbers)

................

ur pretty much on the numbers.............

but having said that................the way my tuner tunes boosted honda's this kit is not responding due to the turbo charger being too small. and its not producing the numbers a boosted honda should..............lol

again, i aint chasing numbers at this stage.............just want it to drive and respond well to boost with decent timing and tune...............yes i made the mistake in not taking my tuners advise and using bigger gt30 series turbo with ramhorn or full race manifold..........but thats my leasson to be learnt...........lol

but yeh the conclusion for me is..............unless you are plannin gon having a turbo for noise and minimal power upgrades avo is the way to go............
if you want a serious tuner to attempt it and get you the power figures and gaines that a normal boosted honda would respooned to.............refer to a build similar if not same as deanno's,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[[ricer]]

unless you are plannin gon having a turbo for noise and minimal power upgrades avo is the way to go............
if you want a serious tuner to attempt it and get you the power figures and gaines that a normal boosted honda would respooned to.............refer to a build similar if not same as deanno's,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

thats kinda harsh to AVO. im sure they dont design their kits just to make noise or minimal power gains
Your the only person i've ever heard have all these issues
2 of my friends ran this kit on their integras and have made good numbers.
maybe your car is a freak. or tuner is playing games...

[IEVAQ8]

;1732740']thats kinda harsh to AVO. im sure they dont design their kits just to make noise or minimal power gains
Your the only person i've ever heard have all these issues
2 of my friends ran this kit on their integras and have made good numbers.
maybe your car is a freak. or tuner is playing games...


i mentioned in my first post...........im not baggin avo............and not saying that its shit........but for the power figures they claim (140kw) its not worth the troubles...........

what figures are your mates touching???????????
and what other work they got????????????
or maybve it is just my luck

[AKmotorworks]

I agree with Toda_AU, we never had a problem with them, the AVO kits are one of the better fitting kits that work well. Notice their kits are not designed to make top end power, but useable power in the lower rpm band.

With our experience, the kits will run fine with a good tune. We have even used a smaller rear than what you have and still not run into this problem. How sure are you that there is not something else causing the problem?

[z3lda]

i mentioned in my first post...........im not baggin avo............and not saying that its shit........but for the power figures they claim (140kw) its not worth the troubles...........

what figures are your mates touching???????????
and what other work they got????????????
or maybve it is just my luck

I've ran an AVO turbo kit for the last 5 years and not once has it given me any trouble. My D-series Honda is putting out 120kws atws on 6psi's (4million and 50kws on a Hub Dyno) And it hauls ass on the streets.

Deano's B-series Delsol with an AVO kit was putting out around 140kws atws, which are same figures that AVO claims.

140kws atws on a honda is pretty fast.

How much Kws do you expect to make with your car?

[SLOWEGG]

I made 146kw on mine, bought it second hand and never had any trouble with it. Should of made more but motor was dieing..

Badluck i guess for you. time to upgrade to a better manifold and bigger turbo =)

[IEVAQ8]

^^^^^^^^^^^to all the above responses....................
i wasnt expecting rediculous power figures..............but that little bit extra i was hoping for...........isnt available........as avo quoted me arough power figure of 140kw............so yeh..........i maybe was a bit ambitious............

[Lukezen27]

^^^^^^^^^^^to all the above responses....................
i wasnt expecting rediculous power figures..............but that little bit extra i was hoping for...........isnt available........as avo quoted me arough power figure of 140kw............so yeh..........i maybe was a bit ambitious............

Man i don't think your to ambitious...

I'm at 128-130ish on boosted D

If I boosted a B18C7 I'd want a f**k load more power than 140......... that's only like 30 or 40 above stock yeah!!

I think about 160ish is or a little highers is what you should be getting..

[IEVAQ8]

Man i don't think your to ambitious...

I'm at 128-130ish on boosted D

If I boosted a B18C7 I'd want a f**k load more power than 140......... that's only like 30 or 40 above stock yeah!!

I think about 160ish is or a little highers is what you should be getting..

thanks mate..................i know every dyno is different and a HUB shows more.........
but i had 135kw on hub dyno NA............so if i was to make around 180kw (without detonation) on HUB dyno...yeh i would be happy.....but it aint working............lol

[xtercii]

fuk yeah why would you bother with a turbo type R if you can only get around 140kw, you can almost get that with good bolt-ons..
even 160 is too low, I'd aim for at least 180kw if i turbo it...

[7ypeR]

deano's dc2r makes 200+ fwkw on internally stock b18c7. 140fwkw doesn't seem so much after all. also there's a stock b16 in bris with edelbrock bolt-on turbokit that makes 185fwkw. different dynos and all that....you know the crap but it does give you a good indication though

[IEVAQ8]

fuk yeah why would you bother with a turbo type R if you can only get around 140kw, you can almost get that with good bolt-ons..
even 160 is too low, I'd aim for at least 180kw if i turbo it...


deano's dc2r makes 200+ fwkw on internally stock b18c7. 140fwkw doesn't seem so much after all. also there's a stock b16 in bris with edelbrock bolt-on turbokit that makes 185fwkw. different dynos and all that....you know the crap but it does give you a good indication though

thanks to both of you for understanding my views..................

if it was 140kw i was after, i would have just thrown some cams in it and there you go with ecu.............obviously i want more....lol

[DLO01]

140kw out of a NA B18C7? You need to do a lot more work than that Tom.

[IEVAQ8]

okay..well maybe...lol.......you know what i mean though.............

[xtercii]

I reckon 140kw is quite achievable with some reasonably mild works..
my motor made 135kw on a roller dyno tuned by dynodave, and I only have bolt-ons (I do use top of the line products tho)...and I am still using stock IM and my exhaust set up is not ideal (2.5in bpipe to 2.38 spoon muffler)...

Of cos the torque is a different story compared to turbo motors...

[CRXer]

I reckon 140kw is quite achievable with some reasonably mild works..
my motor made 135kw on a roller dyno tuned by dynodave, and I only have bolt-ons (I do use top of the line products tho)...and I am still using stock IM and my exhaust set up is not ideal (2.5in bpipe to 2.38 spoon muffler)...

Of cos the torque is a different story compared to turbo motors...

Wow........i was hoping one day to get my motor fully built up to around 140kW,but if i can get hold of those bolt ons u r using i'll be set.............

Once u fix up that zorst & IM u should be up around the 200kW mark:thumbsup:

BTW.....bring it out to WSID next week,i wanna see what those 135kW will do in real life

[Lukezen27]

Wow........i was hoping one day to get my motor fully built up to around 140kW,but if i can get hold of those bolt ons u r using i'll be set.............

Once u fix up that zorst & IM u should be up around the 200kW mark:thumbsup:

BTW.....bring it out to WSID next week,i wanna see what those 135kW will do in real life

Yeah bring it out I want'a race you :p

[fatboyz39]

I reckon 140kw is quite achievable with some reasonably mild works..
my motor made 135kw on a roller dyno tuned by dynodave, and I only have bolt-ons (I do use top of the line products tho)...and I am still using stock IM and my exhaust set up is not ideal (2.5in bpipe to 2.38 spoon muffler)...

Of cos the torque is a different story compared to turbo motors...


Once again comes down to the quality bolt-on and tune :P. I heard its a rocket now xtercii ;).

[fatboyz39]

Yeah bring it out I want'a race you :p

We'll bring out a fairly standard b16a EK4 just to race you :p.

[Lukezen27]

We'll bring out a fairly standard b16a EK4 just to race you :p.

Sweet as Jimmy :)

[Bludger]

any update?

[IEVAQ8]

any update?

hopefully the turbo will be coming off the car next week, (im working late all this week and dont wanna make people come andf get me...lol)
turbo will be off for machining and bigger rear housing..............once finalized.......i will post up

[7ypeR]

aren't you selling the car?? how come your still changing the turbo then?

[Lukezen27]

aren't you selling the car?? how come your still changing the turbo then?

Coze he dose not want to sell someone a broken car

[DLO01]

turbo will be off for machining and bigger rear housing..............once finalized.......i will post up

So what size rear now 1.00 A/R? You currently said you have 0.86 A/R.

[IEVAQ8]

Coze he dose not want to sell someone a broken car

thank you

[IEVAQ8]

So what size rear now 1.00 A/R? You currently said you have 0.86 A/R.

yeh prob 1.00 A/R ior even 1.06 A/R............

not 100% sure yet

[whtcrx]

arent you selling this turbo kit?

[IEVAQ8]

arent you selling this turbo kit?

yeh if someone comes up with the money................otherwise machine and put back onto car..........and if someone buys the car na or turbo.........what eva happens happens