Honda engine, dissapointing torque characteristic

[rusty]

This seems like the correct section, so I post my comment/question here.
We all know that Honda engine is a high rev engine. It's generally reliable & fuel efficient. But, there is one thing that I find quite annoying. Torque.

Seems to me that Honda engine needs to be revved before we can feel the torque. For example, take a look at accord euro. Max torque 223Nm@4500
Compare to German cars, let say BMW 325i, max torque 250Nm@2750 rpm, BMW 320i, max torque 200NM@3600 rpm, Benz C200K, max torque 250Nm@2800-5000 rpm, C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm, the accord euro seems lack low rev punch.

This is also 1 weakness that I remember from one Accord euro review that I read a while ago, "Lack low rev punch"

I believe this is also the case with other honda engines

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm
Jazz VTI 143Nm@4800 rpm
Civic 174Nm@4200 rpm
Civic type R 193Nm@5600 rpm
Odyssey 218Nm@4500 rpm
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm
CRV 218Nm@4200 rpm
S2000 208Nm@7500 rpm

Does anyone know why Honda design engine with this characteristic? Why can't Honda create an engine that is also a killer at both low and high rev? If BMW & Benz can do it, why can't Honda? Is there any reason behind this design?

[beeza]

It's true.I always hoped a dyno tune with an aftermarket ECU would help.Need Turbo :)

[panda[cRx]]

lol u have been a member since 06 and it took u this long to realise hondas have no torque?

[vincikwan]

If you noticed, you cant compared the Euro the the rest of the above cars. Most od the cars that you mention above either have a bigger displacement or a super charger. Besides, Benz n BM drink heaps more than a Euro...

Honda speciality is being a high rev NA car...not a big V6 or V8 or a turbo charged car. Like the DC2Rs are cars that are meant to be on the track to race. The DC5Rs are just there to try and strike a balance between a wkend car and a daily. On tracks, you dont go round them at 3,000rpm, you drive around at higher rpm.

[Mr_will]

Seems to me that Honda engine needs to be revved before we can feel the torque. For example, take a look at accord euro. Max torque 223Nm@4500
Compare to German cars, let say BMW 325i, max torque 250Nm@2750 rpm, - this is a 6 cylinder, so its a stupid comparison.



BMW 320i, max torque 200NM@3600 rpm - the euro has 23nm more, thats more than 10%. what point are you trying to make?


Benz C200K, max torque 250Nm@2800-5000 rpm - this is a supercharged engine, so its a stupid comparison


C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm - this is a 6cylinder, so its a stupid comparison the accord euro seems lack low rev punch.



I believe this is also the case with other honda engines

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm
Jazz VTI 143Nm@4800 rpm
Civic 174Nm@4200 rpm
Civic type R 193Nm@5600 rpm
Odyssey 218Nm@4500 rpm
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm
CRV 218Nm@4200 rpm
S2000 208Nm@7500 rpm


all except 2 of the cars listed above have 4cylinder engines. what do you expect? Honda make good engines but they dont work miracles. you dont get low end torque without a turbocharger/supercharger or increased displacement.



If BMW & Benz can do it, why can't Honda? Is there any reason behind this design?

um...can do what exactly? neither BMW or Merc have a naturally aspirated 4cylinder engine that makes good torque at low revs. they either use superchargers or larger displacement engines with an extra 2 cylinders

[rusty]

OK, maybe the comparison that I made earlier was not quite clear to some people. I am not comparing 4cyl vs 6cyl. I'm comparing characteristic
Let's compare Non turbocharged model and the same 6 cyl model

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)

C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt V6)
BMW 530i 315Nm@2750 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt inline 6)

I'm not saying Honda engine is bad.

I am just curious why can't Honda tune up their engine to have better low rev torque? (This is my question Mr_Will)
Eventhough Accord V6 has more torgue, With this figure, people "could feel" C280 is stronger that Accord V6 because max torque arrive @2500 rpm.

With this figure,

To panda[cRx], yes, I realized this issue long time ago, but I only bring it up now :D

[90LAN]

its all got to do with emissions and fuel consumption
easy

[aaronng]

OK, maybe the comparison that I made earlier was not quite clear to some people. I am not comparing 4cyl vs 6cyl. I'm comparing characteristic
Let's compare Non turbocharged model and the same 6 cyl model

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)

C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt V6)
BMW 530i 315Nm@2750 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt inline 6)

I'm not saying Honda engine is bad.

I am just curious why can't Honda tune up their engine to have better low rev torque? (This is my question Mr_Will)
Eventhough Accord V6 has more torgue, With this figure, people "could feel" C280 is stronger that Accord V6 because max torque arrive @2500 rpm.

With this figure,

To panda[cRx], yes, I realized this issue long time ago, but I only bring it up now :D
Why are you so hung up on peak torque numbers? They are useless. You should look at the actual torque curves.

[rusty]

Why are you so hung up on peak torque numbers? They are useless. You should look at the actual torque curves.

Where can we get that? I've never seen one from Honda. I know BMW and benz have that torque curve

[EuroAccord13]

Peak Torque is for bragging rights by manufacturers, what is more important is the curve of the torque, that's where all the hype in tuning it goes into...

[rusty]

Peak Torque is for bragging rights by manufacturers, what is more important is the curve of the torque, that's where all the hype in tuning it goes into...

I agree. It will be nice if all manufacturers are forced to display their torque and power curve as well as max power and torque. :(

[aaronng]

Where can we get that? I've never seen one from Honda. I know BMW and benz have that torque curve
VTEC.net regularly tests Hondas and Acuras on the dyno. You only want the shape of the torque curve, not the peak number, so you can look at most dynos without worrying about consistency from the varying types of dynos. Here is one for the new Accord 3.5L V6. Look at how flat the torque curve is, eventhough the peak is at 5000rpm.

http://sohc.vtec.net/article_files/714997/08accv65at_dyno.gif

This one is for the 2009 TSX or the new Euro that is coming out soon compared to the previous TSX with more power than the new one (2.4L 4-cyl).
http://sohc.vtec.net/article_files/755732/09vs06TSX_6MT.gif

[Redlinemotorsport]

- this is a 6 cylinder, so its a stupid comparison.


- the euro has 23nm more, thats more than 10%. what point are you trying to make?

- this is a supercharged engine, so its a stupid comparison

- this is a 6cylinder, so its a stupid comparison the accord euro seems lack low rev punch.



all except 2 of the cars listed above have 4cylinder engines. what do you expect? Honda make good engines but they dont work miracles. you dont get low end torque without a turbocharger/supercharger or increased displacement.




um...can do what exactly? neither BMW or Merc have a naturally aspirated 4cylinder engine that makes good torque at low revs. they either use superchargers or larger displacement engines with an extra 2 cylinders

amen.

[TODA AU]

Does anyone know why Honda design engine with this characteristic? Why can't Honda create an engine that is also a killer at both low and high rev? If BMW & Benz can do it, why can't Honda? Is there any reason behind this design?

Sell your Civic & get something with a K20A. (DC5R~S / EP3 etc)
The torque curve is almost flat,
Then add a Injen intake... nothing more...
Peak torque will now be at 3500~4000rpm... :thumbsup:

[razaman]

one of the torquer honda engines is the c35a from the ka9 legend.

311.85nm/2800rpm

Raz

[T-onedc2]

But, there is one thing that I find quite annoying. Torque.

Seems to me that Honda engine needs to be revved before we can feel the torque. For example, take a look at accord euro. Max torque 223Nm@4500
Compare to German cars, let say BMW 325i, max torque 250Nm@2750 rpm, BMW 320i, max torque 200NM@3600 rpm, Benz C200K, max torque 250Nm@2800-5000 rpm, C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm, the accord euro seems lack low rev punch.

This is also 1 weakness that I remember from one Accord euro review that I read a while ago, "Lack low rev punch"

You are comparing Hondas 2L or less capacity engines with 2L Supercharged and bigger engines.

Compared to same capacity engines, Honda always wins hands down.

[barefootbonzai]

Civic 174Nm@4200 rpm

If BMW & Benz can do it, why can't Honda?

Here's the bmw 1.6L NA eqivanent

BMW 116i 150 Nm @ 4,300 rpm

Not only does the honda make more torque, it makes it earlier. I think you need to wake up, and stop comparing completely different things.

[NightKids]

lol OWNED!

[Weq]

Here's the bmw 1.6L NA eqivanent

BMW 116i 150 Nm @ 4,300 rpm

Not only does the honda make more torque, it makes it earlier. I think you need to wake up, and stop comparing completely different things.

Completely different things would be a motorbike and a caravan. This person is compareing cars in the same market segment.

Fact is, hondas are torqueless wonders. But we wouldnt want it any other way. A previous poster has the answer before. Its all about fuel consumption and emmisions. Thats nothing to be ashamed of guys.

[aaronng]

Completely different things would be a motorbike and a caravan. This person is compareing cars in the same market segment.

Fact is, hondas are torqueless wonders. But we wouldnt want it any other way. A previous poster has the answer before. Its all about fuel consumption and emmisions. Thats nothing to be ashamed of guys.

In that case we can complain that the 525i is weak and torqueless compred to the Legend, eventhough it is unfair to BMW.

[Pumped]

Give this guy a fair go lol

I think hes more getting at when peak torque is made, not what the figure is
And i agree, ive driven numerous hondas, And they're all good cars
but sometimes they feel more effort to drive then cars manufactured by other companies, N/A or not
If your looking at it as a Stop/start proposition, But still there not too bad, just could use a few extra nm :)

[T-onedc2]

Give this guy a fair go lol

I think hes more getting at when peak torque is made, not what the figure is
And i agree, ive driven numerous hondas, And they're all good cars
but sometimes they feel more effort to drive then cars manufactured by other companies, N/A or not
If your looking at it as a Stop/start proposition, But still there not too bad, just could use a few extra nm :)
Believe me he's getting a fair go lol

Just because he's wrong with unfounded claims doesn't mean it's unfair.

[dsp26]

Give this guy a fair go lol

I think hes more getting at when peak torque is made, not what the figure is
And i agree, ive driven numerous hondas, And they're all good cars
but sometimes they feel more effort to drive then cars manufactured by other companies, N/A or not
If your looking at it as a Stop/start proposition, But still there not too bad, just could use a few extra nm :)

as above... people who drive Honda's for performance should know exactly how the power/emissions/economy system works together... they don't normally go together.

simple answer if you want power for the price of a honda is get a v8

[gnx1987]

Yeah my Buick makes 690Nm@2800rpm! But it also gets 22L/100km :(

You'll notice (if you haven't already) that these days an atmo engine will make peak torque similar to it's engine displacement. ie, a 2 litre will make somewhere very close to 200Nm, or a 3 litre somewhere close to 300Nm obviously depending on how the engine's built.

[simonnowis]

the torque figures dont really mean much, although honda's have less torque they make up for the rev plus honda's are lighter then the euro cars.
pretty much down to power:weight ratio.

[dsp26]

the torque figures dont really mean much, although honda's have less torque they make up for the rev plus honda's are lighter then the euro cars.
pretty much down to power:weight ratio.

yeah they do and it's why v8 drivers always tell you that (torque = rpm/5252 or something like that)... just not on hondas... think of the 2nd cam lobe as overclocking an ecu... the entire package in say a B-series is designed to make power up there so you get the economy on the low lobes.. very evident in b16

[T-onedc2]

High lift vtec is actually designed to make use of big lobe cams while optimising the bottom end power and response, otherwise without vtec the engine is useless until 4400rpm. Yes Hondas can feel slow down low, but think about it, no other similarly displaced engine has a useable flat torque curve from 1500rpm like B series engines upwards. Below 3-4000rpm around town a performance based Honda engine has much more useable power than it's competitors and so called superiors

You need to experience driving a wider range of cars before drawing conclusions.

[silver_screen]

a rotary engine does :)

the rotary engine has the flattest torque curve of any engine :P

and displacement wise, makes alot more than the piston equivalent.

look @ the 2.6lt quad rotor for example... well over 600nm

and the RX8 makes over 200nm from its crappy lil 1.3lt twin rotor

[dsp26]

a rotary engine does :)

the rotary engine has the flattest torque curve of any engine :P

and displacement wise, makes alot more than the piston equivalent.

look @ the 2.6lt quad rotor for example... well over 600nm

and the RX8 makes over 200nm from its crappy lil 1.3lt twin rotor

doesn't count coz it's 2 stroke.... thats why a 13b is technically 2.6l

[T-onedc2]

a rotary engine does :)

the rotary engine has the flattest torque curve of any engine :P

and displacement wise, makes alot more than the piston equivalent.

look @ the 2.6lt quad rotor for example... well over 600nm

and the RX8 makes over 200nm from its crappy lil 1.3lt twin rotor

And use an obscene amount of fuel to do so

[DreadAngel]

High lift vtec is actually designed to make use of big lobe cams while optimising the bottom end power and response, otherwise without vtec the engine is useless until 4400rpm. Yes Hondas can feel slow down low, but think about it, no other similarly displaced engine has a useable flat torque curve from 1500rpm like B series engines upwards. Below 3-4000rpm around town a performance based Honda engine has much more useable power than it's competitors and so called superiors

You need to experience driving a wider range of cars before drawing conclusions.

I dunno man, 4A-GEs are pretty good... =P

[T-onedc2]

I dunno man, 4A-GEs are pretty good... =P
I've owned 3 4AGE's, big port, small port & 20 valve. Although some of the best for their time they just don't compare. The 20 valve power curve, because of stock ecu, has dips and peaks all through the rpm.

[Hullabaloo]

not taking any sides. but to compare apples and apples
the clio 182's engine is a 2.0L and makes 200nm @ 5250rpm
206 gti is also 2.0L and makes 202nm @ 3500rpm
the dc5r's 2.0L engine makes 192nm @ 6000rpm

i've driven the mentioned cars think that both the 182's and 206 gti's engine *feel* more torquey.

[T-onedc2]

Both also weigh considerably less than DC5R, Clio is less than 1000kg. Both excellent cars though.

[aaronng]

not taking any sides. but to compare apples and apples
the clio 182's engine is a 2.0L and makes 200nm @ 5250rpm
206 gti is also 2.0L and makes 202nm @ 3500rpm
the dc5r's 2.0L engine makes 192nm @ 6000rpm

i've driven the mentioned cars think that both the 182's and 206 gti's engine *feel* more torquey.

The Clio Sport's engine is equivalent to the JDM DC5R's engine. It gets the polishing and lightweight components as well. The GTI makes 202Nm @ 4750rpm, not 3500rpm. So stop twisting the facts.

DC5R's engine has 2 torque peaks because of the highcam lobe. If you looked only at low cam, you'd find maybe 190 or 191Nm @ 4000rpm or so.

[SeverAMV]

uhh... if i remember correctly, honda stated that they designed their engine with more high end torque than low end torque because it ends up being safer and more durable. monstrous low end torque is what generally destroys gearboxes and driveshafts.

plus, the essential basics of an engine is that power = torque x rpm. the higher the torque at higher rpms, the more power it makes overall (there are other factors affecting the equation, but the proportionality remains the same, more torque at high rpm = more power).

[aaronng]

uhh... if i remember correctly, honda stated that they designed their engine with more high end torque than low end torque because it ends up being safer and more durable. monstrous low end torque is what generally destroys gearboxes and driveshafts.

plus, the essential basics of an engine is that power = torque x rpm. the higher the torque at higher rpms, the more power it makes overall (there are other factors affecting the equation, but the proportionality remains the same, more torque at high rpm = more power).
Monstrous torque at low RPM damages gearboxes? Torque at high RPM destroys gearboxes more than at low RPM. Imagine your input shaft spinning at 8000rpm and you are putting torque through it. That is more stress than at 2000rpm.

From even the Legend's 3.5L, making 350Nm is hardly monstrous torque. C63 AMG, now that is monstrous torque. Enough torque that Mercedes Benz had to limit the torque to 600Nm through the ECU so that the gearbox is not destroyed. Hence the peak torque at 5000rpm, but with 500Nm starting from 2000 to 6250rpm

[rusty]

uhh... if i remember correctly, honda stated that they designed their engine with more high end torque than low end torque because it ends up being safer and more durable. monstrous low end torque is what generally destroys gearboxes and driveshafts.

plus, the essential basics of an engine is that power = torque x rpm. the higher the torque at higher rpms, the more power it makes overall (there are other factors affecting the equation, but the proportionality remains the same, more torque at high rpm = more power).

Aha, this explanation makes sense. Honda is not alone BTW. If you notice Toyota & Lexus also have low end torque. You feel the power in the upper half of the rev. Probably this explains why honda & toyota engines are reliable compared to others

To those who say that I didn't make reasonable comparison, you didn't read one of my previous post in this thread (after the first post). Here, I'm sure this comparison FAIR:

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)

C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt V6)
BMW 530i 315Nm@2750 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt inline 6)

One more time, I don't compare MAX TORQUE. I compare CHARACTERISTIC.

OK, enough no more arguments. I'm happy with Honda engine despite all its weaknesses :D

[Hullabaloo]

The Clio Sport's engine is equivalent to the JDM DC5R's engine. It gets the polishing and lightweight components as well. The GTI makes 202Nm @ 4750rpm, not 3500rpm. So stop twisting the facts.

DC5R's engine has 2 torque peaks because of the highcam lobe. If you looked only at low cam, you'd find maybe 190 or 191Nm @ 4000rpm or so.

sorry, my bad. when i said apples and apples i was thinking about 4cyc 2.0L engine cars that we can get in australia. i didn't think to use the japanese spec dc5. and i just used redbook for the gti's values:
http://www.redbookasiapacific.com/au/vehicle/specs.php?id=93342

[aaronng]

Looks like Redbook has some errors that needs to be fixed. :thumbsup:

[T-onedc2]

Aha, this explanation makes sense. Honda is not alone BTW. If you notice Toyota & Lexus also have low end torque. You feel the power in the upper half of the rev. Probably this explains why honda & toyota engines are reliable compared to others

To those who say that I didn't make reasonable comparison, you didn't read one of my previous post in this thread (after the first post). Here, I'm sure this comparison FAIR:

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)

C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt V6)
BMW 530i 315Nm@2750 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt inline 6)

One more time, I don't compare MAX TORQUE. I compare CHARACTERISTIC.

OK, enough no more arguments. I'm happy with Honda engine despite all its weaknesses :D
And for the full story how much of the 339/351Nm is the 3.5L Honda making at 2500 or 2750 rpm?

[SeverAMV]

Monstrous torque at low RPM damages gearboxes? Torque at high RPM destroys gearboxes more than at low RPM. Imagine your input shaft spinning at 8000rpm and you are putting torque through it. That is more stress than at 2000rpm.

From even the Legend's 3.5L, making 350Nm is hardly monstrous torque. C63 AMG, now that is monstrous torque. Enough torque that Mercedes Benz had to limit the torque to 600Nm through the ECU so that the gearbox is not destroyed. Hence the peak torque at 5000rpm, but with 500Nm starting from 2000 to 6250rpm

well think of it this way. a supra that makes say 800nm of torque at 2000rpm is gonna have a higher chance of destroying its gearbox due to the car having very little inertia at 2000rpm, so if you suddenly floor it, the torque is transferred instantaneously which will stress out all components significantly, and have a much greater chance of destroying a gearbox than a supra that made 800nm of torque at 6000rpm. making that much torque at 6000rpm is more progressive (depending on shape of curve), and due to all parts having greater inertia at the time, the stress is more progressive, and less damaging. hard to explain.

think of a car trying to pull a heavy object without a trailer. if you move it slowly and progressively, the object will move without any major problems. say instead you had a v8, and you floored it straight away. the inertia of the heavy object is too great to be moved quickly and easily, so you'll either yank off your tow bar and other bits, or the heavy object will be launched into your car.

sure 350nm may not seem like much, but if you made that at 1500rpm, you can do a fair bit of damage.

[Zilli]

wow

Honda's motors are designed for a different purpose to towing boats... You are right, Hondas a pretty punchy and responsive, and the "hi-po" motors can put out a decent wack of go in the top end, which is what VTEC is all about... the ability to potter around at low revs and be economical and easy to drive, but with the power when you want it in the higher rev range.

I think there are a bunch of us in here that need to understand we drive commuter cars, not hi performance machines for the most part... a civic for example is not designed to be a performance car... not in any way shape or form, and it's debatable how you can make integras and civics become a performance vehicle without dialing in a whole bunch of compromises to the entire car as a design...

The OP is right in my opinion... Honda motors are not particularly ballsy in terms of torque... in comparison to an LS1 or big capacity 6...

[thepope1986]

severAMV is right the sudden burst of huge torque is great for destroying drivetrain. i work at ford the focus XR5 has 320nm of torque from a 2.5l 5cyl. In the clutch assembly theres a valve that stops you from dumping the clutch and breaking CV's. Its a real pain in the ass when you want fun take offs but its precisely to stop breaking things.

[aaronng]

Dumping the clutch and having the drivetrain damaged from regular driving are two different things.

[connorling]

i think honda create small engine is because its cost, and cost to run it, imaging a 3L engine revv to 8500rpm, it will cost quite a bit to run doesnt it???

honda do make big engine like NSX, 3L V6, but cost????

i think making small engine also reduce the weight, which is good for track as honda itgR and civicR were intended to be used in track.

and also being FF car, if the engine is too big, doesnt it kill the ability to be on track???