Forced Induction - what gap and spark plugs?

[dudeling7]

Hey guys,

just checking up on a few things, when going FI would it be smart to step down a couple heat ranges and also change the stock gap on the spark plugs?

been reading that around .020" -.030" gap is ideal for FI, what are you guys running?

[CRXer]

when u get it tuned,your tuner will be able to advise u on plug selection by reading the plugs.It depends how much boost u want to run & the tuning.

[Lukezen27]

I'm running stock pluges :o

[CRXer]

Have u had a look at them lately luke,worth a quick look to see whats goin on,only take u 5 mins.

[Lukezen27]

Have u had a look at them lately luke,worth a quick look to see whats goin on,only take u 5 mins.

Yeah I mgiht have a look this weekend

I'm doing a few things to my car this weekend anyway

New Pump
Stock Wing Install

:)

[CRXer]

and a run at WSID next week?

come on......u know u want too;)

sorry for the spam

[Lukezen27]

and a run at WSID next week?

come on......u know u want too;)

sorry for the spam

I want too but my tyres suck so bad :(

Also sorry for the spam..

[Lukezen27]

Hey guys,

just checking up on a few things, when going FI would it be smart to step down a couple heat ranges and also change the stock gap on the spark plugs?

been reading that around .020" -.030" gap is ideal for FI, what are you guys running?

To answer your question

Yes one or two down I think but I'm no expert so maybe someone can help answer?

[aaronng]

We can't advise you. You will have to get your tuner to check. Because if you go too cool, you get deposits on the plug. If you go too hot, you get pinging.

[CRXer]

yeah & the gap as well is also highly dependant on how much boost u plan.

0.020" seems like u were reading about someone with a decent amount of boost.

My tyres suck too luke,come join me in launching hell next week:thumbsup:

[Lukezen27]

yeah & the gap as well is also highly dependant on how much boost u plan.

0.020" seems like u were reading about someone with a decent amount of boost.

My tyres suck too luke,come join me in launching hell next week:thumbsup:

I'll see how all my mods go this weekend and PM you :thumbsup:

Na yours are heaps bettter than my Ling Longs :(


We can't advise you. You will have to get your tuner to check. Because if you go too cool, you get deposits on the plug. If you go too hot, you get pinging.


Yeah mines been tuned with my stock pluges so that's why I don't have any problems :)

Its all about the tune hehe

[dudeling7]

haah sweet, so with the emanage (base tune) and greddy kit stock plugs ran ok for u luke? thats mainly the focus of my question sorry.

[Lukezen27]

haah sweet, so with the emanage (base tune) and greddy kit stock plugs ran ok for u luke? thats mainly the focus of my question sorry.

yup sure are :thumbsup:

You will only been on 5psi standard kit setting


Well not sure about your model kit but mine was!!

[dudeling7]

awesome, yeah it should be the same thing. only difference really between our kits id the size of the turbo, mines a tdo5 18g.

thanks for the help mate.

[Weq]

I'm running stock pluges :o


Thats why u are breaking up at teh track.

BRK7E(-11s) gapped between 0.032"-0.028"

That will suit most engines boosted upto 20psi. If u cant get spark, you ingition setup isnt upto scratch.

These are a single stage colder, because in Australia the 6E is the stock plug. In america, its a 5E. So thats why americans say "two stage colder" for FI.

[Weq]

Yeah mines been tuned with my stock pluges so that's why I don't have any problems :)

Its all about the tune hehe

You do have problems.
Your wasteing money putting that fuel pump in. Who was the retard who suggested that?

[Lukezen27]

You do have problems.
Your wasteing money putting that fuel pump in. Who was the retard who suggested that?

Just trying to find the problem

Mines an old punmp anyway and its time for a new one anyway.. I know the stock is rated to 200HP

Yea I know about the coolers plugs and i'll being get'n some next turn but for now its fine

[Limbo]

I went 1 down to stock, & got platinium plugs.

[EGB18CT]

the 6e's are stock i just got some 7es and will try them out soon, but you cant really go wrong with the 7e's like weq said.

[DLO01]

Hey guys,

just checking up on a few things, when going FI would it be smart to step down a couple heat ranges and also change the stock gap on the spark plugs?

been reading that around .020" -.030" gap is ideal for FI, what are you guys running?

Usually you step "up" 1 cooler. Stock ignition gap is usually between 0.8mm -1.0mm, but up to tunner.

[Lukezen27]

Usually you step "up" 1 cooler. Stock ignition gap is usually between 0.8mm -1.0mm, but up to tunner.

Oh so its up for cooler hey lol

[TODA AU]

I'm running stock pluges :o
Well sort of...
You were probably alseep when they were re-gapped to 0.8mm (0.032")
If you are having missfire from the plugs, pull em out & check 'em.
The gap may have eroded & increased, as from memory they were only $5 plugs in it.

[Lukezen27]

Well sort of...
You were probably alseep when they were re-gapped to 0.8mm (0.032")
If you are having missfire from the plugs, pull em out & check 'em.
The gap may have eroded & increased, as from memory they were only $5 plugs in it.

I might have missed ya doing that Adrian lol they were whatever Hannys use.

Na I'm not have any missfire that I know off.

I am having a weird problem where my car just stops mid run... then goes back to normal afterwards

I thinks its just the stock map sensor as my boost creeps off 11psi maybe?

[DLO01]

I am having a weird problem where my car just stops mid run... then goes back to normal afterwards

I thinks its just the stock map sensor as my boost creeps off 11psi maybe?

Your prol right. boost cut. ;)

[CRXer]

Haha......wake up luke,

Maybe thats whats happening to your 60 footers as well,half asleep?

[Lukezen27]

Your prol right. boost cut. ;)

Any way to test my theory?


Haha......wake up luke,

Maybe thats whats happening to your 60 footers as well,half asleep?


That's how I roll

Half asleep and love'n it :)

[CRXer]

Any way to test my theory?



Yeah,put a voltmeter across your map terminals at the ecu(put it on peak hold if its got that), go out hit full boost,see if its reading >5V.If so your pushing outside the boundaries of the stock map.

Its commonly known fact as well,that u know your pushing its boundaries anyway at 11 psi

[Lukezen27]

Yeah,put a voltmeter across your map terminals at the ecu(put it on peak hold if its got that), go out hit full boost,see if its reading >5V.If so your pushing outside the boundaries of the stock map.

Its commonly known fact as well,that u know your pushing its boundaries anyway at 11 psi

Ok cool

Yeah I know 11psi so much for the stock sensor but I've been hit'n hard to 6 months now without this problem :o


Sorry for the spam

[Weq]

I might have missed ya doing that Adrian lol they were whatever Hannys use.

Na I'm not have any missfire that I know off.

I am having a weird problem where my car just stops mid run... then goes back to normal afterwards

I thinks its just the stock map sensor as my boost creeps off 11psi maybe?

Seriously man, do u listen. Do u know what a colder plug does?

Your car is heating up at the strip, the plugs are going out of there heat range and bang, u are loosing spark. It feels like a rev limiter. You cool the engine back down again, they come back into the heat range, and bam, you got spark again.

*smacks head*

I have NEVER EVER heard of a OEM pump going. My stock pump flowed just as good as it ever did, 15years old. But hey, its your choice to throw money away.

[Weq]

Your prol right. boost cut. ;)

Once a stock map sensor reads over 10.8psi, it does nothing more then stop increasing its voltage. It hits the roof.

The emanage hasnt got a boost cut set, i'll bet my two left testis on it. Toda, care to input?

[DLO01]

Thats what I really meant. Not boost cut as such, but outside the stock map sensor range.

[Lukezen27]

Once a stock map sensor reads over 10.8psi, it does nothing more then stop increasing its voltage. It hits the roof.

The emanage hasnt got a boost cut set, i'll bet my two left testis on it. Toda, care to input?

So that would not stop the car them?

[DLO01]

What does it do? Are you accelerating and then sudenly everything cuts out silent? You back off and things start running again? If so your maxing out the map sensor.

[aaronng]

Seriously man, do u listen. Do u know what a colder plug does?

Your car is heating up at the strip, the plugs are going out of there heat range and bang, u are loosing spark. It feels like a rev limiter. You cool the engine back down again, they come back into the heat range, and bam, you got spark again.

A colder plug just conducts heat away quicker from the tip than a hotter plug. The heat range does not specify the operating temperature range of a spark plug.

[CRXer]

A colder plug just conducts heat away quicker from the tip than a hotter plug. The heat range does not specify the operating temperature range of a spark plug.

true this

[Weq]

A colder plug just conducts heat away quicker from the tip than a hotter plug. The heat range does not specify the operating temperature range of a spark plug.

Same the same.

[aaronng]

Same the same.

Except that you don't lose spark when the plug temperature is high. What happens is your air-fuel mixture is being pre-ignited before the spark by the hot spark plug tip, making you lose power.

[Weq]

What does it do? Are you accelerating and then sudenly everything cuts out silent? You back off and things start running again? If so your maxing out the map sensor.

Emanage has a voltage clamp that. The ECU never see's anything above 0psi.

Hmm lets see the possibility of what this problem could be caused by.

A) A faulty map sensor, that when it reads above 11psi, totally looses its voltage scale and starts outputting crap. This is the only way i can see a map sensor causing the problem.

B) Spark being blown out because of incorrect application choice.

C) Stock fuel pump not supplying enough pressure (no detonation occouring).

[CRXer]

Same the same.

yeah,makes sense also,depends on how fouled/encrusted/broken down they really are from operating outside their range.

time to have a look luke,post haste

[Weq]

Except that you don't lose spark when the plug temperature is high. What happens is your air-fuel mixture is being pre-ignited before the spark by the hot spark plug tip, making you lose power.

Good info :) I hope luke understands this.

Im betting on a combination of gap (electrode wearing from incorrect heat range) and incorrect heat range -causing alot of his problems.

[Lukezen27]

What does it do? Are you accelerating and then sudenly everything cuts out silent? You back off and things start running again? If so your maxing out the map sensor.

thats excatly what happens


Good info I hope luke understands this.



Im betting on a combination of gap (electrode wearing from incorrect heat range) and incorrect heat range -causing alot of his problems.


Why did it just start now?

I've been hitting it far harder for longer then that 1/4 mile time

I'm think'n the 8 pound spring has loosened up a bit and letting a bit more boost then my last dyno

It was brand new last time I got her dynoed

[IEVAQ8]

im using bkr7e-11 ngk plugs on my boosted b18c7 with 1.0mm gap..........
depends what the tuner likes, or more what the motor likes on the dyno

[aaronng]

thats excatly what happens


Why did it just start now?

I've been hitting it far harder for longer then that 1/4 mile time

I'm think'n the 8 pound spring has loosened up a bit and letting a bit more boost then my last dyno

It was brand new last time I got her dynoed
What does your boost gauge say?
How old are your plugs? What plugs are you using? I'd change them every 6 months if you are using the copper ones, and 12 months max if they are platinums. I'd still go 1 step colder because your higher intake charge means more heat produced than the standard NA tune that the sparks were designed to be run at.

[Lukezen27]

What does your boost gauge say?
How old are your plugs? What plugs are you using? I'd change them every 6 months if you are using the copper ones, and 12 months max if they are platinums. I'd still go 1 step colder because your higher intake charge means more heat produced than the standard NA tune that the sparks were designed to be run at.

Cheap gauge but reads about 10psi but was more like 11 last dyno but its hard to look at while on boost..

Plugs are about 6 months old no more..

Standard Plugs Hannys use'sd and gaped but Adrain

[dudeling7]

try get some NGK copper ones, i jsut change them every 5000km which is prob a bit overkill but they are cheap so why not.

maybe pull out a spark plug and see how it looks and measure the gap if you able too and report back.

[aaronng]

Cheap gauge but reads about 10psi but was more like 11 last dyno but its hard to look at while on boost..
If you are maxing out the MAP sensor, then time to upgrade.


Plugs are about 6 months old no more..

Standard Plugs Hannys use'sd and gaped but Adrain
What are standard plugs? If they are the $4 each ones, then they are copper and should be changed since you have used them for 6 months. On an un-stressed stock tune NA engine, copper ones are changed every 12 months. So I don't expect them to last as long on your forced induction engine.

[Weq]

Who brought up this silly map sensor theory? They need to be shot.


You can run 14psi on the STANDARD map sensor, all it does is stop reading at 10psi so u get a shitty tuning resolution.. It doesnt make your car magically got into reverse, turn its blinkers on, or make you a cup of tea. Seriously, get a clue.

[aaronng]

Who brought up this silly map sensor theory? They need to be shot.


You can run 14psi on the STANDARD map sensor, all it does is stop reading at 10psi so u get a shitty tuning resolution.. It doesnt make your car magically got into reverse, turn its blinkers on, or make you a cup of tea. Seriously, get a clue.

Oops, just reread and he has a tune for his setup. As long as his tune adds more fuel in as the RPMs increase irrespective of what the map sensor reads after maxing out, he's fine.

But there are those who still run stock tune.

[Weq]

thats excatly what happens




Why did it just start now?

I've been hitting it far harder for longer then that 1/4 mile time

I'm think'n the 8 pound spring has loosened up a bit and letting a bit more boost then my last dyno

It was brand new last time I got her dynoed

Have you read any of the posts? Its all been explained. Your missfireing/blowing out the spark. Stop thinking, goto repco and ask for 4xBKR7E-11's.. Hand over $16.90. Tap them agains the wall until your 0.8mm feeler gauge is dragging on the electrode. Install. Test. Problem fixed.

Do you even know what boost cut is? It cuts ignition signal. Which is exactly what happens when your spark is being blown out by boost. You have the wrong plugs. You have the wrong gap. Simple. DO it befor eyou blow out ur headgasket again cause of the miss-firing.

[Weq]

Oops, just reread and he has a tune for his setup. As long as his tune adds more fuel in as the RPMs increase irrespective of what the map sensor reads after maxing out, he's fine.

But there are those who still run stock tune.

His tuned for 10-11psi. I assume toda has fattened up the topend for some safety. Regardless, the emanage does not care what boost u are running. It will happily let you run right off the maps and detonate your head off. It doesnt care.

#Unless the boost cut limiter has been enabled and set. But im sure if it was, toda would of mentioned something in this thread.

[Lukezen27]

His tuned for 10-11psi. I assume toda has fattened up the topend for some safety. Regardless, the emanage does not care what boost u are running. It will happily let you run right off the maps and detonate your head off. It doesnt care.

#Unless the boost cut limiter has been enabled and set. But im sure if it was, toda would of mentioned something in this thread.

Yeah Adrain has tuned my car with these plugs and gap and yes more fuel than needed for safety..

Nope I don't think he setup the boost cut limiter that I know of.

But I get the cooler plugs and gap em won't I need a return?

[DLO01]

Weq, if it were the plugs misfireing/blowing out, the motor will start to hessitate, it all would not suddenly cut out. As I have explained and Lukezen has, its is all suddenly cutting out for a second or so and then is fine again. I have seen it before.

[IEVAQ8]

there must be some sort of boost cut inplace, or its overboosting and shutting off, as there must be a certain boost map that it wont read past......

as deano said...........

ask your tuner and see what parameters he has set on the boost readings

[aaronng]

Would there be any chance that the boost cut was wired to the output of the knock sensor?

[TODA AU]

Once a stock map sensor reads over 10.8psi, it does nothing more then stop increasing its voltage. It hits the roof.

The emanage hasnt got a boost cut set, i'll bet my two left testis on it. Toda, care to input?

Yup, bang on... :thumbsup: (Your balls are safe)

In addition to there being no boost cut function in the E-Manage,
There is a MAP sensor output clamp function.
On boosted applications this clamp voltage is applied on boost so the std ECU does not see boost & fail in to stupidity.

Re Luke's plugs,
To be honest I can't remember the heat range these were.
Probably 6's (BKR6E-11's)
It didn't have an issue on the dyno,
But that said, the drag strip is a different monster & too hot a plug could cause the sensation of a miss fire through pre-ignition (detonation)

That in mind, rather than point the finger at just the plugs.
My guess is the mixtures on boost when subjected to the conditions of drag racing may well be a little too (Safety tune) rich for the boost being run.
That is wavering between 11.1 & 11.5 @ the tail pipe which is closer to 10.7 & 11.1 at the engine.
Combine this with the rapid drop in ignition timing on boost & it's not a big stretch to consider the missfire is possibly a rich missfire.
We could try leaner, but I also don't have any wish to break it.
Anyway, we'll all probably find out when Luke gets back from Holidays...
That's my 5 cents
Cheers

[aaronng]

When you say misfire, do you mean the spark is not strong enough to ignite the entire mixture? Or is the resistance to spark from electrode to ground is too great because of the rich mixture and high pressure, so he gets a spark that is inadequate to start combustion?

[Limbo]

hey luke just get some copper plugs, just in case you kill another set.

[Lukezen27]

Well there apears that e-manage has the boost cut enables but I didn't do it.. and Adrian didn't coze he didn't know it was there, must be stock setting

I saved the SGC file today at work to check it out..

http://www.doubledynasystems.com/Car/dyno/boost_cut.png

[TODA AU]

Well there apears that e-manage has the boost cut enables but I didn't do it.. and Adrian didn't coze he didn't know it was there, must be stock setting

I saved the SGC file today at work to check it out..



LOL...
It's not a boost cut as such,
It is to stop the std ECU going bananas when it sees boost pressure.
(Remember your car used to throw a check light)
Anyway,
As I said above:
There is a MAP sensor output clamp function.
On boosted applications this clamp voltage is applied on boost so the std ECU does not see boost & fail in to stupidity.

& what you're looking at there is that exact clamp setting I was talking about.

[Lukezen27]

LOL...
It's not a boost cut as such,
It is to stop the std ECU going bananas when it sees boost pressure.
(Remember your car used to throw a check light)
Anyway,
As I said above:
There is a MAP sensor output clamp function.
On boosted applications this clamp voltage is applied on boost so the std ECU does not see boost & fail in to stupidity.

& what you're looking at there is that exact clamp setting I was talking about.

I see

I thought as much and did both factions

And your sure it won't be the stock map sensor then?

So I should just get some BRK7E(-11) gap em to 0.032?

I've got the new Walbro fuel pump next to me and will install that tomorrow to cross that off the list lol

[Limbo]

hey luke found some cheap plugs for you
http://search.ebay.com.au/civic_W0QQfromZR40QQfrtsZ50

[Lukezen27]

hey luke found some cheap plugs for you
http://search.ebay.com.au/civic_W0QQfromZR40QQfrtsZ50

Links too heaps of items Limob

You mean http://cgi.ebay.com.au/4-X-Iridium-Spark-Plugs-For-92-95-96-00-Honda-Civic-New_W0QQitemZ310063776359QQihZ021QQcategoryZ43807Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[aaronng]

Change the plugs first. If it works, then good. Change fuel pump after that. Don't change both together because you won't know the cause of your problem.

[[ricer]]

Links too heaps of items Limob

You mean http://cgi.ebay.com.au/4-X-Iridium-Spark-Plugs-For-92-95-96-00-Honda-Civic-New_W0QQitemZ310063776359QQihZ021QQcategoryZ43807Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$33 for no name spark plugs?

may as well go supercheap on a good day and get NGK ones for $32 a set

by a good day i mean 20% off store wide sale lol

[Lukezen27]

Change the plugs first. If it works, then good. Change fuel pump after that. Don't change both together because you won't know the cause of your problem.

pump changed today lol DOH

plugs next pay

[aaronng]

pump changed today lol DOH

plugs next pay

A set of copper NGKs cost $16! You don't have $16? :p

BTW, don't get iridiums. Firstly, they need a higher voltage to create the spark and are more suited for engines with individual coil packs over the plug. 2nd, they are better for stock cars where they last longer. On a modded/turbo'd car, they will just get chewed through and you waste your money.

[Lukezen27]

A set of copper NGKs cost $16! You don't have $16? :p

BTW, don't get iridiums. Firstly, they need a higher voltage to create the spark and are more suited for engines with individual coil packs over the plug. 2nd, they are better for stock cars where they last longer. On a modded/turbo'd car, they will just get chewed through and you waste your money.

I'll try and get some Copper BRK7E-11 tomorrow and gap them to 0.032 - 0.030

[CRXer]

Iridiums actually require less voltage than conventional tip style plugs to fire,

[aaronng]

Iridiums actually require less voltage than conventional tip style plugs to fire,

Oops, yes, you are right. I made a mistake.

[Lukezen27]

Oops, yes, you are right. I made a mistake.

Guys

Is this a type'o?

BRK7E(-11s)

Should be BKR7E(-11s)?

[aaronng]

It's BKR7E

[Lukezen27]

It's BKR7E

Cool

Tried all day today but no one had any :thumbdwn:

[TODA AU]

Cool

Tried all day today but no one had any :thumbdwn:
Really?
That's odd as it's pretty common plug.

[Lukezen27]

Really?
That's odd as it's pretty common plug.

Really!!!

ried

Cars Plus
Super Cheap
Auto Barn
Auto One
Spaks
TLC

None carry that model plug

[aaronng]

Try Bursons.

[IEVAQ8]

bursons always has them in stock

[Lukezen27]

bursons always has them in stock

I've just ordered some from Auto One near my house..

Will get them tomorrow :thumbsup:

[CRXer]

hey luke,

looks like im too late,lol.

but i was just down at Peps at artarmon & the good news is they have about 20 7EVX platinums in stock.

the bad news,they are about $20 a hit.but they will last a bit longer if u look after them & also put a little less strain on your ignition,not that the honda item cant handle it,but a bit of overhead is good wherever u can find it.

[EGB18CT]

just be careful running platinums as some have smaller spark tips and can actually snap off, the normal ngk's are nice and thick and just throw em out when there done, there like $2 bux a pop, just change then with your oil or every 10,000km and you will always have optimum spark!

[Lukezen27]

BKR7E-11s Gapped too 0.032 and installed

Stock plugs wont gapped at all, hope no damage has been done :(

I can hear a clicking sound at the from of the motor just above the turbo manifold..

Anyone know what that could be before I start upping the boost back to 10psi after installed a MBC in the weekend?

I'm on about 8psi now

[CRXer]

Maybe the 6's were eroded back out to a stockish gap luke?

The ticking,checked your valve clearances lately?
All i could hear were injectors last time u pointed out the clicking.

[Lukezen27]

Maybe the 6's were eroded back out to a stockish gap luke?

The ticking,checked your valve clearances lately?
All i could hear were injectors last time u pointed out the clicking.

Yeah there about 6 months old so I guess they just worn out lol

clicking not coming from the top like tappets but yeah my tappets were adjusted not more than 3 months ago

[CRXer]

how fast is the clicking in relation to idle speed?

do LMA's click if they get sticky?

if its relatively slow,do a quick belt inspection for piece of mind.

[Lukezen27]

how fast is the clicking in relation to idle speed?

do LMA's click if they get sticky?

if its relatively slow,do a quick belt inspection for piece of mind.

The clicking stops and starts and seems quiet random and I can't hear it when I rev so I can't tell